the yanks want relaibility...true...but god they put up with terrible build quality and the tackiest interiors this side of a halfords special saxo.......
Originally posted by biggbn: volvo 240 seven seater....unburstable, relatively classless and cool....or mark two espace.....both cheap as you like and you get to keep your beloved bmw...
Volvo 240 doors boost pecs and increase bust sizes, they're that heavy......don't expect much help from Joe Public if you put one on its side!...Volvo 740/760 much better idea....more width for passengers inside, as doors are thinner.....build quality better than Ark Royal....parts cheepazchipz...can be had with diesel, but is rarer....same unit as used by Audi and VW LT...(rebuld cyl head if you find one...it'll repay itself inreliability and power).....but avoid all Renault-derived V6's.
Not a performance machine....unless you're in a hurry...can be had with 7 seats....plus...ITS RWD so it will drive like a beemer....even has beemer-like wallow!
or go FWD with the T5 estate...check for holes in roof where blue lights were fitted....estate T5 a beast..turn you off beemers forever!
Espace also excellent performer...but watch electrics in used one's...not renault's strongpoint.
dont be tempted to buy a used hearse...Mam'll get the wrong idea!
Originally posted by Palmira: [ a Touran, probably the most pointless, soulless characterless box on the UK market, and with a tractor engine too?....Why on earth did you not buy a Golf instead of the Touran? They are a glass of water on wheels
Having lived in america and owned american cars, i can vouch most of them are reliable - the american public simply do not put up with unreliable goods or bad service.
Why on earth did you not buy a Golf instead of the Touran? They are a glass of water on wheels
Palmira,
I am ROTFLMAO. I spent 30 years of my life on that side of the pond and while the Americans do like reliability - they are buying (and have for many years) Toyotas and Hondas in vast numbers. The Big 3: Chrysler, Ford and GM are on the point of going under. Ford went as far as to buy 400 Honda Accords and take them apart as they could not believe that anybody could build a car as good as that at such a good price.
There are also problems with the Voyager concerning safety and those seats will break your back when you try to remove them . As much as we loved our Fiat Multipla we decided not to get another because the seats weighed in about two hundredweight apiece .
Palmira,
As far as the VW Touran goes, I fully agree with you - it is a piece of mobile soulless crap and with more than a few build problems.
QJ,
We have had 4 Volvo V70s (Before school fees ) and they are great, but if your kids are over about 3 or 4 years old, the seats in the back are not very suitable. The only estates I have seen that seat 7 well are the Mercedes E Class Estate and the old Toyota Camry Estate (I had a 3 litre one in Canada and it was super but I am not sure that the 7 seater was ever sold in Europe). The Volvos are very sturdy, Mrs A rolled one in France and we all walked out alive - I had just picked it up at the factory in Sweden a week before -a total write-off.
it looks like I've narrowed it down to a New Zafira 1.9CDTI, Old Zafira GSI, Renault Grand Scenic 1.9 dCI, and Touran 2.0TDI.
So out of these does anyone recommend the pick of the bunch, if there is one!
I've looked about and these are about the ones that fit the bill, sumink the missus can drive too (she runs a Yaris), anything bigger than that is a tank according to her!
Sorry to bore you all once again, but your help has been great!
Avro, you are absolutely right.. However the Hondas Toyotas etc which are bought in the US are US-built and designed ones. Theyre cheap, reliable transport but are uninteresting in the extreme. You lease one for 3 years, then throw it away, which is fine if you dont care about cars and just want to get from A to B.
Re: The Voyager, they are not unsafe at all. That Euro-NCAP survey was rigged by the French government (and before you start on me, i am PRO-French and love france and french cars).
The reason it was rigged was because they wanted to sell Espaces on the strength of their safety and didnt want the Voyager taking sales from Renault (part-owned by the French government) when it was launched in Europe.
US safety regulations are very very strict and the Voyager meets them.
Remember, often these things are political - and in this case its the communists at Renault who are government-sponsored who are giving out the wrong facts!
I still stick to my guns on this one - get a Grand Voyager and youll like it. It is very popular with well-heeled middle class families and has alot more class than most.
Including that awful Touran which is for common people who like driving a van with an agricultural engine.
Originally posted by Palmira: Avro, you are absolutely right.. However the Hondas Toyotas etc which are bought in the US are US-built and designed ones. Theyre cheap, reliable transport but are uninteresting in the extreme. You lease one for 3 years, then throw it away, which is fine if you dont care about cars and just want to get from A to B.
US safety regulations are very very strict and the Voyager meets them.
Not so, a lot of the Toyotas and Hondas are built in Canada and there is some localisation but many of them are exported around the world (you can actually buy Canadian built Hondas and Toyotas in Japan). Over 30% of North American Car production is in Canada because the workforce is more reliable and cheaper. My Dad has had his Camry for 10 years now and it is super. Most Americans and Canadians don't lease cars.
The American safety regulations were often laughable. Vans as the American MPVs are called only have to meet the safety regs for agricultural vehicles as they are classed as trucks. The Voyager was particularly unsafe in a rollover and on the old ones the rear seats tended to fly out the boot door .
Ah MrSingh.. Why must the BMW go? I mean I don't like BMWs myself, but surely losing a 3.0litre uber saloon to get a 4 cylinder diesel MPV is the wrong choice..
But it's your choice.. so out of the cars you've suggested.. I'd choose.
The new (2005) Zafira... It's said to be significantly better than the old Zafira. And as it's based on the new Astra, I have no reason to doubt it. Reliable, cheap to run, nice on the motorway and relatively fun to drive. If you wanted some real fun I'd go for the Zafira VXR. But that's no doubt outside your budget.
The old Zafira is seriously dull.. and outdated. I wouldn't bother with it. Renault Grand Scenic doesn't look good and neither does the Touran. VAG diesels don't get good press.. certainly my experience of them is not good. They're far from refined, at idle at least.
Originally posted by biggbn: volvo 240 seven seater....unburstable, relatively classless and cool....or mark two espace.....both cheap as you like and you get to keep your beloved bmw...
Volvo 240 doors boost pecs and increase bust sizes, they're that heavy......don't expect much help from Joe Public if you put one on its side!...Volvo 740/760 much better idea....more width for passengers inside, as doors are thinner.....build quality better than Ark Royal....parts cheepazchipz...can be had with diesel, but is rarer....same unit as used by Audi and VW LT...(rebuld cyl head if you find one...it'll repay itself inreliability and power).....but avoid all Renault-derived V6's.
Not a performance machine....unless you're in a hurry...can be had with 7 seats....plus...ITS RWD so it will drive like a beemer....even has beemer-like wallow!
or go FWD with the T5 estate...check for holes in roof where blue lights were fitted....estate T5 a beast..turn you off beemers forever!
Espace also excellent performer...but watch electrics in used one's...not renault's strongpoint.
dont be tempted to buy a used hearse...Mam'll get the wrong idea!
740/60 and 940/60 are very good cars qj, i just dont think they have the 'snob appeal' of old 245's!!!.....i always think of an old 240 series volvo estate sitting outside a country house, towing the horses to the gymkhana or being used for light duties by an eccentric old antiques dealer.....banger racers buy 740s.......
My dad's next door neighbour is on his second Zafira, both old and new shape and hasn't had any problems. Judging by your posts Mr S the diesel Zafira is probably the one to go for.
Originally posted by Palmira: Avro, you are absolutely right.. However the Hondas Toyotas etc which are bought in the US are US-built and designed ones. Theyre cheap, reliable transport but are uninteresting in the extreme. You lease one for 3 years, then throw it away, which is fine if you dont care about cars and just want to get from A to B.
US safety regulations are very very strict and the Voyager meets them.
Not so, a lot of the Toyotas and Hondas are built in Canada and there is some localisation but many of them are exported around the world (you can actually buy Canadian built Hondas and Toyotas in Japan). Over 30% of North American Car production is in Canada because the workforce is more reliable and cheaper. My Dad has had his Camry for 10 years now and it is super. Most Americans and Canadians don't lease cars.
The American safety regulations were often laughable. Vans as the American MPVs are called only have to meet the safety regs for agricultural vehicles as they are classed as trucks. The Voyager was particularly unsafe in a rollover and on the old ones the rear seats tended to fly out the boot door .
Avro in Bruggen
1) Most americans do lease cars and have been doing so since the 1950s.
2) Honda's plant is in Marysville, Ohio, which is in the United States, not Canada.
Chevrolet have a plant at St Therese, in Canada where they produced some Camaros etc.... but majority are made in the US.
1) Most americans do lease cars and have been doing so since the 1950s.
2) Honda's plant is in Marysville, Ohio, which is in the United States, not Canada.
Chevrolet have a plant at St Therese, in Canada where they produced some Camaros etc.... but majority are made in the US.
Sorry, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. The St Therese plant closed some time ago and Chevrolet will be building Camaros in Oshawa. Hondas are built in great numbers in Alliston , Ontario(400,000 a year at the 3 Honda plants in Canada) while Toyotas are built in Cambridge, Ontario and Fords are built in Oakville, Ontario and General Motors builds cars in Oshawa, Ontario while Chrysler has plants in Windsor, Ontario. Over 30% of North American car production is in Canada.
Toyota is building a new plant in Woodstock, Ontario and in 2008 it will start producing 100,000 RAV4s each year in addition to the 300,000 Corollas and Lexus (Lexi??) being built in Cambridge, Ontario. http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html
The reasons the Japanese and other automakers favour Canada for Car production is the high level of education of the workforce and the Canadian National Health system which allows for workers to be employed at a cost $4-$5 cheaper than their American counterparts. The car companies have had some dreadful experiences in the Southern US due to the poor quality of the workforce.
The Chryslers Voyager has had a reputation of being very unsafe both in rollovers and frontal crashes but the latest ones are better than earlier models.
Most Canadians and Americans buy their own cars. Cars in North America are leased by people who often have good cash flow but personal circumstances that don't permit car loans.
Being on an army base most of the married people here have young children and we have loads of Estates, SUVs but especially MPVs. A favourite topic of discussion is Which Car? next (most deal each year) The experience of most has been as follows:
Vauxhall Zafira-a popular choice which has disappointed, build quality not up to much and residuals are terrible , no space in the boot when carry 7 but the Fiat diesels are super
Ford SMax-very popular and most people seem happy with it, too early to say anything about reliability or residuals
Honda FRV-nice diesel engine and very reliable, seats 6 and build quality is good
Mazda 5-nicely put together, good diesel engine, teeny-tiny boot when all seats in place
Mitsubishi Grandis-not a bad looking car, and the seats fold nicely but the seats give you backache on a long trip, the petrol engine is very thirsty indeed
Renault Scenic-nice car but diesels are unreliable and build quality can be questionable
Fiat Multipla-lovely diesel engines and good storage, seats are very comfortable on a long journey but heavy when you need to take them up. Styling used to be funky and now is just boring.
Citroen Xsara Picasso-seats 5, great value and good diesel engines, I have never liked the styling because you are never sure whether it is coming or going
Citroen C4 Picasso-Just about to be introduced in the UK and early test reports are good, I been in one in Holland and seating and seating system is super, the diesel should be good, very innovative
Citroen Berlingo-seats 5, a box on wheels but the diesel engines are good, boot is huge, seats fold nicely and loads of storage including the brilliant overhead lockers-not bad for £10K
VW Touran-a box on wheels but unlike the Berlingo no soul , build quality is suspect but most of these are niggles
Toyota Verso-super little car, great build quality, good diesel engine, seats fold nicely but limited storage compartments so not ideal for families and although it seats 7 at least 3 of these should be small children
Originally posted by Palmira: This from someone who drives a Touran, probably the most pointless, soulless characterless box on the UK market, and with a tractor engine too?
Why on earth did you not buy a Golf instead of the Touran? They are a glass of water on wheels
Why a Touran? - because it meets my needs perfectly, much as a Voyager no doubt meets the needs of your corporate taxi service.
I was in exactly the same boat as Mr Singh, looking for a COMPACT MPV with extra folding seats in the boot for occasional use. This time last year I would have laughed if you had suggested that I would own a VW, however I have an open mind (unlike some) and was prepared to consider all the options.
Fiat Multipla/Honda FRV - Didn't fancy the 2 x 3 seating layout.
Renault Grand Scenic - as reliable as a Voyager.
New Zafira/Mazda 5 - too new, too expensive, no deals to be had
Toyota Corolla Verso - you think the Touran is dull?
Ultimately the choice came down to cash and who was offering the best deal and I bagged a pre-reg Touran for used-old-style-Zafira money.
OK the Touran looks dull but it drives just like a Golf, only rolls a bit more due to the higher c of g.
Why didn't I buy a Golf? errm, last time I checked a Golf was a 3 or 5 door 5-seater hatchback.
Originally posted by b308: Can we just remind everyone - Mr S did say SEVEN seats so the Multipla is a non-starter!!!
Oh and "COMPACT" which rather rules out the larger MPVs certain people suggested!
Yes but he was going from a 5 seater because of an extra bum which would make a 6 seater so the Multipla is definitely in the running and it is very much Compact MPV. I think the 7 seater comment was because they are more 'common' than a 6 seater rather than because of actual need.
. As much as we loved our Fiat Multipla 
we decided not to get another because the seats weighed in about two hundredweight apiece 
.
- it is a piece of mobile soulless crap and with more than a few build problems. 
) and they are great, but if your kids are over about 3 or 4 years old, the seats in the back are not very suitable. The only estates I have seen that seat 7 well are the Mercedes E Class Estate and the old Toyota Camry Estate (I had a 3 litre one in Canada and it was super but I am not sure that the 7 seater was ever sold in Europe). The Volvos are very sturdy, Mrs A rolled one in France and we all walked out alive - I had just picked it up at the factory in Sweden a week before 
-a total write-off. 
.
and it's his favourite.
which would make a 6 seater so the Multipla is definitely in the running and it is very much Compact MPV. I think the 7 seater comment was because they are more 'common' than a 6 seater rather than because of actual need.
