Reluctantly - I have to back the 123d.

OK. This doesn't prove anything. Just for your information, but a reminder that the BMW 123d twin turbo won the "Best New Engine of 2008" at the International Engine of the Year Awards 2008.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe that this is the first diesel engine to win this particular award.

Link to citation

Diesels are great engines with many strengths. Right now I would be hard pushed to be persuaded to buy anything other than a diesel powered car for my own use. However they sound so crap that I still don't like them. Massive respect - Yes. . . . . . .Like - No.

However, I live in hope that some manufacturer who really knows what they are doing, (like Honda or Mercedes) can sort out the noise problem.

I bought a Fiesta 1.6 TD today, brand new, for £8,075.
It is a UK car, with leather and is a Ghia.
The true price should have been £13,275 in this spec., so i have got an amazing buy.


It is quite 'agricultural' at tickover, to be honest, but is so much quicker in the real world than the Panda 100 HP was. (I have just sold that).
It is also a much better quality car.

It will compliment the flyweight Cosfield and the 2007 Mondeo Ghia 2.2 TD which we are getting next week quite nicely!
(The trusty CRV is making way for the Ford above).

The 123d sounds ok to me.

Yes the 123d sounds a lot better than diesels used to. So does the great Honda diesel.
They are getting there. The day will come when they actually sound nice and sporty, like the best petrols. I really believe that,

But for now - IMHO even the best of them don't sound good at all compared to petrol (but they are great engines in other respects - I do recognise that)

That said, when you get a bargain like your latest purchase, I think that you can cut it a bit of slack.

Just one thing - you have pulled my leg on these forums in the past for "buying new" - now you admit to doing it yourself! You are a bit naughty!

No, you may or may not understand.
Buying new IS crazy and totally pointless.

The car is 'secondhand', the moment you drive off the forecourt.

You will throw thousands of pounds away, during your very first mile in the car, in value.

Buying used but mint is way, way more sensible.

I have paid less than used price for this car. THAT's the difference.
I could sell it tomorrow for £9,500 like a shot.

EG

The 2007 Mondeo Ghia 2.2 TD we are buying was £23,480 new.
It is immaculate and has done 18,000 miles.
I am paying £13,750 for it.
Buying that car new would be utter, utter madness.

PS

The Mondeo 2.2 TD is a brilliant engine, way better/stronger than the 2.0 petrol.

The 2.5 T is better still.

still slow and boring though. the st engine is nothing special.

quote:

Originally posted by petrol_blue:
I don't know how and Integra Type R, one of the best regarded fwd cars can be described as slow or indeed crud by any car enthusiast.

the integra engine is weak as pee water p-blue come off it. better than derv.

Weak as pee water? Yep.

Better than derv? Not at everything.
In fact, only at a few things!

Right, ok. So a car that can keep with the Impreza, Golf R32, 130i, Porsche Boxster, Audi S3 etc is weak as pee water?

Come on lads; now you're just tickling me.

The ITR, particularly the 1.8 is a weak engine, especially compared to the Evo 260 or Audi S3, which both have far better, charged, motors.
The ITR felt weedy when i drove one, the next one i drove was no different really, even though it had a claimed 209 bhp.
Nothing-nothing-nothing-something-scream-rev limiter.

13-8 mate. 'I am enjoying this result', to quote you, Nox!

quote:

Originally posted by Bamford:
No, you may or may not understand.
Buying new IS crazy and totally pointless.

The car is 'secondhand', the moment you drive off the forecourt.

You will throw thousands of pounds away, during your very first mile in the car, in value.

Buying used but mint is way, way more sensible.

I have paid less than used price for this car. THAT's the difference.
1) I could sell it tomorrow for £9,500 like a shot.

*SIGH*
I think that your reply comes across as a tad more forceful than you intended. I think that we are agreed actually
1) It IS right to buy new on those (admittedly rare) occasions when you get a really great deal.
2) ...but as a general rule, buying new sucks.

"Buying used but mint is way, way more sensible." - Yep. Agree - if you know what you are doing. Unfortunately, I know very little about the mechanicals of cars and haven't got the time to learn.

You have had loads and loads of experience in buying cars. Can you just share a couple of tips on how to go about getting these bargains (because to be honest, when I see a car at below book price my first reaction is suspicion.

Sure, just tell me the car you want and i will find it for you. As you're a long-known 'car acquaintance', i won't even charge, as i usually do with car locating, something i do for pocket money now and then. (I located a 2006 Porsche 997 Turbo for someone this very week, as it happens.)

I was 'forceful', because i needed to be in this case.
Buying new is a mug's game, it's as simple as that, UNLESS you are buying something incredibly rare and bound to appreciate, or suffer minimal depreciation.

Or tell me the car and i'll advise on where to buy.

14-8 Oli!

An old friend took me for a ride in his 240bhp Integra earlier in the week. Sure you have to rev it to get the most from it but the kick it gives at around 5,500rpm was incredible. Amazing engine - especially considering it is a 1.8!

Cannot possibly draw comparisons to the BMW engine though as I have yet to experience it. Would have thought the petrol would suit the original brief of a "stylish coupe" the best - but with more soundproofing than the Integra has... unless it's to be more of a sports coupe?

240 bhp from 1.8 litres? Are you sure it has 240? It must be very, very cammy.

My Works GP Mini used to see them off, largely due to the better powerband.

I know that it was a Japanese import and that he's done some modifications to the engine too. He's a mechanic by trade so no doubt he had a good idea what to do to get the most from it - I would have no idea!

Having not been in a standard ITR I cannot draw comparisons in the power delivery, but it did compare to the turbo kicking in on my diesel (but at higher revs). I don't see that as an issue though, in both cars, since the powerbands are long enough to use the gears to stay at this high level of performance.

It's just that you have 4,000 rpm-worth, where nothing much happens, so overtaking into suddenly appearing gaps, means rapid down changes just to find a suitable gear, where a bi-turbo derv just disappears with a prod of the loud pedal.

I agree, in some respect, as yesterday I was caught out by a car overtaking in a queue of traffic at approx 30mph because I was in 4th and well below the 1,800rpm where my turbo kicks in. As such, Mr Corsa cheekily sneaked in, where I would usually have closed the gap!

Even at 50mph, due to the long gearing of a diesel, if you are 6th gear at just below 1,500rpm you're not in your prime. From what I gather though the new BMW diesels' initial turbo kicks in a little lower in the rev range - so less likely to be an issue..... unless the gearing is longer still! Did you not say your 535D was 45mph/1000rpm in top gear? Even at 60 or 70 mph you may not have had the instant shove for spontaneous decisions.

45 mph per 1,000 rpm in top, yes.

It had 400 lbs-ft at 1,500 rpm, remember.