In a way though, the Phaeton/Bentley thing highlights what a premium car is supposed to be. A car that is genuinely superior in engineering, it's quality should shine through regardless of badge, just like 80s mercedes used to, rather than the modern marketing man/accounting definition of premium car, a car which you simply charge a premium for. Ironically it's VAG that's usually most guilty in this respect!

yet another case of decontenting...the new bentleys are fantastic cars....they have had their souls removed tho...top of the range vw's now..lost their englishness and character....once again, i'm not suggesting they are bad cars in any way shape or form....they have just had their charisma gently massaged away by a brawny german masseuse....which is why they now stand comparison with a glorified passat....jeez..wo bentley, tim birkin, wolf barnato etc...will be spinning in their graves...bentley, the maker of, as ettore bugatti described em, the 'fastest trucks in the world', the all conquering le mans winners, the choice of drivers who dont give a stuff about having the spirit of ecstasy on their bonnet so all can see the size of their wad....in the hands of ze shermans.......

quote:

Originally posted by crankcase:
In a way though, the Phaeton/Bentley thing highlights what a premium car is supposed to be. A car that is genuinely superior in engineering, it's quality should shine through regardless of badge, just like 80s mercedes used to, rather than the modern marketing man/accounting definition of premium car, a car which you simply charge a premium for. Ironically it's VAG that's usually most guilty in this respect!

Spot on old bean.

I think there are alot of still genuinely classy products about, I know we all get a bit dejected sometimes when you hear quality problems affecting more or less every manufacturer - and then headlines of Ford & Gm struggling - but there are some very very good products about.

I expected to not like the Phaeton when i tested it last year. It astonished me, and IMO is one of the very best cars in the world. Its very strange sitting behind the (Bentley) steering wheel and seeing the blue & silver VW badge in the middle of it. Peoples Car.

I tend to think the 1990s was an awful decade for cars. Blandness everywhere, and as you say, accountants and marketing depts triumphing over engineering.

This is why i was very happy to read this months CAR magazine. A lot of wonderfully inspired designs, and a welcome return to ENGINEERING rather than bean counting..

quote:

Originally posted by Palmira:
A lot of wonderfully inspired designs, and a welcome return to ENGINEERING rather than bean counting..

The Veyron's an excellent cas in point. It's commercial suicide, costing VAG millions but it was the result of one man saying "we are going to build a car that does this, this and this" and the engineers then going away and working their 4rses off to actually acheive it.

quote:

Originally posted by raoulduke:

quote:

Originally posted by Palmira:
A lot of wonderfully inspired designs, and a welcome return to ENGINEERING rather than bean counting..

The Veyron's an excellent cas in point. It's commercial suicide, costing VAG millions but it was the result of one man saying "we are going to build a car that does this, this and this" and the engineers then going away and working their 4rses off to actually acheive it.

YES! Exactly. And for that, i salute them.

Also, take away the commercial aspect, profit, and add the enthusiastic aspect, passion for cars, and you have the most incredible design, and incredible performance, desirability. And you thank the lord that VAG took the trouble to do it, just because they could. Id love a veyron, wonderful in every way.

Yup, i love it. You've got to tip your hat to a man who just says "sod the books, lets build a I]car[/I], a proper one like they did in the old days"

at least the veryon looks different...not like that dross lambo is about to foist upon us...why do these manufacturers feel the need to reach back into their past and design caricatures of their old glory boys...the new muira will be a gallardo with a hat on..and fleece the buyer for the priveledge...i can actually see why ford did it with their gt..cos if it did not have the glory by association of the 60s poster boy, regardless of how good it was, who would have spent 100k on a ford supercar....but lambo...traditionally one of the most forward thinking innovative tractor makers in the world going down this route really ticks me off....commercial, me too supercar design...it will no doubt be stunning, but come on...retrograde

I see what you're saying but the new miura's soooo pretty. I'd rather have a gallardo chassis with that body on top than the normal one.. not that i'd turn down a normal one either, although obviously you shouldn't expect me to be grateful

It isnt a Gallardo-based car though.

The Gallardo has the Phaeton/S8/R8 V10.

The new Miura is a copy of the 60s original with a V12 engine & yes its retrograde but its a 2006 version of the most incredible milestone in 60s motoring. Evolution is better than revolution? too right it is.

Evolution is what has led to marques of today having their great history. And its we lust after European supercars.

Gullwing - Pagoda SL - R109 SL - R107 SL - current SL.

SLC - SEC - S coupe - CL.

Jaguar XJ Series 1 - 2 - 3 - XJ40 - X300 - All Alloy XJ.

Bentley S2 - Mulsanne - Arnage T

Maserati Quatroporte - 1973 to date.

And now that beautiful Miura. I would like to bet the chap who has had his Murcielago 2 yrs down the road will trade that in for a new Miura & keep the Gallardo.

Cars like this have soul. biggbn i dont know how you can hold this view of it.

And how is it "me too" design? Its THEIR design. Gandini's original. Theyre not copying anyone. It isnt commercial, it is a showcase of Lamborghinis history and engineering pedigree.

Its the Japs who copy for commercial reasons and get it all wrong. I am 100 percent certain that Miura will be a huge success and rightly so.

i never mentioned engines..i quote...'car' can revel that engineers plan to derive the muira from the v10 gallardos chassis...did you just look at the pretty pictures in the article bro?...i mean me too in the way that so many manufacturers are robbing their back catalogues for 'new' designs...new mini, ford gt, new beetle, muira, stratos, mustang, camaro, charger etc..etc....i like the styling...i like the retro looks...i just feel if you are paying hundreds of thousands of pounds for a top of the range lambo, you should be able to expect cutting edge styling, not some pastiche of a sixties supercar.....christ, if you can afford the new muira, you can afford to have the original in your garage.......

...and that my friend had soul...in spades....something new lambos are apparently missing since,....oh yeah, ...since ze shermans took over.......

quote:

Originally posted by biggbn:
i never mentioned engines..i quote...'car' can revel that engineers plan to derive the muira from the v10 gallardos chassis...did you just look at the pretty pictures in the article bro?...i mean me too in the way that so many manufacturers are robbing their back catalogues for 'new' designs...new mini, ford gt, new beetle, muira, stratos, mustang, camaro, charger etc..etc....i like the styling...i like the retro looks...i just feel if you are paying hundreds of thousands of pounds for a top of the range lambo, you should be able to expect cutting edge styling, not some pastiche of a sixties supercar.....christ, if you can afford the new muira, you can afford to have the original in your garage.......

These are all marques with histories.

I love to see modern tech & dynamics in these beautiful cars which are an evolution of the originals. That is what a true supercar maker is about. Heritage.

i see where yer comin from bro...but for me its cashing in....lambo make some of the best performance cars in the world..fact...they are known for their visually arresting, outlandish designe...fact.....the muira was a beautiful car...fact.......the countach/diablo/murcialago/gallardo lineage is apparent for all to see...fact....where does the new muira fit into this evolutionary line-up....as a retrograde styling exercise....it will be a superb car, it will be bought by those who can....it is another example for me of a great manufacturer cashing in on its heritage for the quick buck....lambo could have put the glorious 'split cabin' roadster into production, but instead is taking the soft option.....my opinion mucka...ps..i love the styling of the new one...stunning...just feel it aint the way forward....

mmm, are you saying that unless there is a heritage you cannot produce a "true" supercar?

no mate i'm not...the ultimate supercar for me has no heritage as such...the pagani zonda f....an exercise in styling par excellence..the zonda has been with us for several years now and still makes 'conventional' supercars look crass and dated......in my opinion...as i have stated before, s'amazin how some people can look at somethin and find 'em visually ugly yet some see them as a thing of beauty..its very subjective.....

quote:

Originally posted by Palmira:

quote:

Originally posted by dja771:
Money no object? Mmm, I'd probably have a few:

- 350Z Nismo with a couple of Garrett turbos (>400BHP) for weekend fun
- Audi RS4 for the daily commute
- Lexus GS430 or Merc CLS* for motorway mile munching

*It would be sold the first time something broke (I don't put up with shoddy quality and dealer service)

Come on DJA, youre an intelligent chap, you can do better than that surely?

Money no object? a 350Z?? surely not.

How about an Aston DB9 Convertible, or a Maserati QP? Or a new shape Lamborghini Miura? Or an SLR McLaren? Even a Range Rover Vogue Supercharged would be an interesting, fast & luxurious car should you be fortunate enough to not worry about cost.

Sorry but the new GS430 is not a proper luxury car. Overtones (or undertones?) of Avensis.

I'll stand by my choices. Yes, I would have a 350Z. Fantastic car, that fortunetly because of the badge gets overlooked, so it'll never be a TT (more common that a Ford Focus) and with the twin Garrett turbos I mentioned would frighten a 911 driver.

Is it wrong not to hanker after Astons, Maserati's, etc? I don't think so. I have differnet priorities to you or others - doesn't make me less of a "petrolhead" because of that. But that doesn't really matter, because it would appear that your opinion is all that matters!

either a lexus IS250, a lexus GS, an Audi A6 or a porsche 911 turbo

lancia delta hf intergrale

quote:

Originally posted by Palmira:
i followed it down the street on my motorbike the other day, and pulling out of the junction at the bottom when he pulled away my head rattled inside my helmet!

Erm...have you got a particularly small head??? Or the wrong sized helmet? Mwahahahahahaha....