Why no SD1 V8 and Vitesse? Sure Vitesse I suspect is early 80's but the SD1 V8 was a neat machine with fantastic styling compared to Ford Grannies.

xj6/12..best car in the world in the seventies....by a loooong way...mercedes 450 sel 6.9 would be my next choice, then citroen cx and no one has mentioned the glorious white elephant that was the lancia gamma...a good one is every bit as cerebrally satisfying as a cx, a bad one will take all your cash quicker than a labour govt.

A had a Series 3 Daimler Double Six V12 5.3 Vanden Plas last year.
Do you like that model, G?

quote:

Originally posted by XNtrikalfaman:
..... a cx, a bad one will take all your cash quicker than a labour govt.

Aw....c'mon....nothing could be that bad!

quote:

Originally posted by Bamford:
A had a Series 3 Daimler Double Six V12 5.3 Vanden Plas last year.
Do you like that model, G?

series 3 xj6/12, to my eyes, is the most beautiful saloon car...ever..pips the ds, cx and traction for me..perfect proportions, long, low, wide..every inch the jaguar....

This was the Daimler Vanden Plas version.
I don't know what difference that would make over the Jag. Name and?
Finish? Spec?

Bizarre that no Mercedes is on the list. Or is it assumed that the Mercedes 300SE of the 70s were so far ahead that including it would render the poll pointless.

the big square rigged 450 sel 6.9 with the stonking dry sumped v8 would be in my top 5 saloon car of all time never mind from teh seventies....

..as far as i recall, vdp was the top daddy spec wise for the old xj....more wood, thicker carpets etc..but just the same to look at....i nearly bought a fantastic silver series 2 xj12 vanden plas many moons ago....it was arthur daley heaven!!

I used to go to school sometimes in a Mercedes 300 SEL 6.3.
Awesome!
To think that a diesel hot hatch would keep up with it now!

i know which id rather have tho...

Oh aye, but haven't bhps and things changed!
The Merc will return about 12 mpg and take forever to get going!

but its the old class/crass thing....the 300se 6.3 is a thing of beauty and if you think about it, its the grandaddy of the amg mercs, m5s and s6/8 type cars that are now so common....job well done id say....

..on that subject, i really do feel that hot hatches arent nearly as fast as they COULD be...i think they are being reined in by the makers so as not to impeach on ubersaloon teritory.....bhp figures of up to 260 are not uncommon in the hatch market now, yet the cars themselves aint much faster than my old 220hp fiat.....progress???.....in fact, i know some of them cant even keep up with it!!...

..id love to see a lightweight hot hatch, lie a type r, or a stripped out m version of the 1 series..something which will get to 60 in 5 secs or so and have mind altering mid range and superb handling.....maybe there aitn a demand for such a car..but i think there is..look at eh success porsche had with their cs range..customers payed more for less....ideal for the manufacturer....i know if gone on about this before but if cars were less profligate, they wouldnt ned as much power, such big brakes/tyres etx..they would be just as fast, if not faster, even better handling without needing so many driver aids and be more economical....heaven..

Stripped out?
Big mid-range power?
Hot hatch?

Is 218 bhp and 1090 kgs ok?
BEARING in mind it has to conform to all the rules and regs we have now?

Enter the brilliant little Mini Works GP i had.

The new Scooby is a HH and the STi version has 296 bhp, easily altered to 350 or even 400 bhp.
I don't think we have ever had it so good, apart from the weight which modern rules add.

quote:

Originally posted by Bamford:
Stripped out?
Big mid-range power?
Hot hatch?

Is 218 bhp and 1090 kgs ok?
BEARING in mind it has to conform to all the rules and regs we have now?

Enter the brilliant little Mini Works GP i had.

id need a modicum of practicality..where is the incentive to buy a hot hatch with 2 seats??..id be looking at a boxster, mx5 or s2000 or the like..which are all too 'eavy in the grand scheme of things too!!...(i loved my mx5 to be honest...not sure if i posted up the review here??)

Why would you want 'stripped out' then expect to carry 4 adults in a hot hatch?
Huh?

Surely a stripped out performance car only needs 2 seats?
Take the 1987 Granada when all the family wanna go!

The Works GP was very practical, anyway.
It took us to Cannes and back without missing a tick.
Plus, it beat up a stack of cars in the Alps, due to the very qualities you want, light weight, great mid-range power and fantastic handling.

quote:

Originally posted by Bamford:
Why would you want 'stripped out' then expect to carry 4 adults in a hot hatch?
Huh?

Surely a stripped out performance car only needs 2 seats?
Take the 1987 Granada when all the family wanna go!

because i, and many others, need to occasionally carry passengers...hence one of the reasons i kept my coop and sold the mx5...im probably, yet again, expressing myself wrong...stripped out isnt so much what i mean, more stripped back, pared to the bone...lightweight seats, lightweight componentry, thinner glass, less sound proofing...sure its gonna be harder to live with on a day to day basis, but a hell of a ride whrn your in the mood.....a bigger, modern day 106 rallye for instance....a car with about 150hp or so but light enough to use every last bhp...a four seat saloon version of YOUR caterham if ya like...

sometimes a car has to be all things to all men...the old ctr was pretty close to ideal..it 'only' had 200hp but blitzed many more powerful cars, both in a straight line and round the track....same but even lighter for a extremely fun biased road car capable of carrying yer goods n chattels...(again, the ctr was marvelous for this as yer grannie could have driven it to the shops and not realised it was even a warm hatch never mind a spicy madras!!!)

I have to say you have got me this time, G.
You never have less than 3 cars at once, so why you'd want a track refugee to carry (3 and upwards) people about, g.o.k.
If you mean for the general public, there would never be a demand for such a car.
Noisy, uncomfortable, difficult to live with, etc. ain't EVER gonna happen outside of specials.

Yep, this R400 is noisy, uncomfortable, hopeless in town and now, post 30 bhp gain, more than ever, the engine is best suited to going quickly, it really doesn't like 'slow' very much at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Bamford:
I have to say you have got me this time, G.
You never have less than 3 cars at once, so why you'd want a track refugee to carry (3 and upwards) people about, g.o.k.
If you mean for the general public, there would never be a demand for such a car.
Noisy, uncomfortable, difficult to live with, etc. ain't EVER gonna happen outside of specials.

but there patendly IS a market..look at the old ctr sucess..look at the sucess of r26 megane, clio 172/182/192 etc...these are noisy, uncouth but remain the vestiges of practicality that many buyers need..not everyone can own more than one car, and i do believe there are many, many petrolheads out there who would buy such a car..sure, it would be a compromise, but it would mean that they didt have to hang up their gloves once sprog #1 came along..

if these cars were competitively priced, maybe even an entry level to the hot hatch fraternity, they did without, or COULD be specified without air con and other weighty extras, i believe there would be a market..

i hear what ya saying about the mini gp, but im pretty sure that, like many people, if i was gonna be 'hampered' by only having a two seater, id be going the sportscar route..used boxster for instance...??..

OK, let's assume that the current Renault Megane R26 F1 230 is the best Hot Hatch out there.
Which, in many ways, it is.
Especially value for money, new and used.

So.
How would you change this car, to get it to the car you are looking for someone to build?

I would think that significant weight loss would be hard without much expense.

Power output is just about right, those who have tuned this engine have generally found that the extra lag isn't worth it. Again, avoiding further lag would mean big bucks.

What would you leave out/change?

G?

i only mentioned the r26 as a guide to the fact that many are prepared to drive what is, in essence, a pared back version of a four seat hot hatch...i thing most, probably all the cars from the hot hatch market sector are now too big to fit into my, perhaps utopian dream!!!

think supermini size, thing 150-200hp, high torque from lowish revs..(so maybe a lightweight turbocharged 1200-1500cc engine..MAYBE a small diesel!!??..)..think less than 1000kg, ideally 900kg kerbweight...look for searing in gear acceleration, superb handling and braking because of the lightweight, tremendous economy when off boost..(maybe a variable turbocharger which can move between lpt and fpt depending on load...??)...think vmax about 130mph, which is more than enough these days..this car shouldnt need huge tyres, huge brakes etc..so cheapish running costs and should fit into cheaper road tax brackets....doesnt have to have a huge boot, just enough for a weeks shopping, and should be able to fit passengers in....think lightweight sportka with fiats 1400cc turbo engine???......

Right, i give you the forthcoming Fiat 500 Abarth Essessee.
170 bhp.
Huge mid-range, for big in-gear shove.
Reputed great handling and brakes.
Light weight, if not AS light as you want. (What would you sacrifice for weight loss?)

Am i getting closer?