What is it you own again obble a Ford ???

any Honda is better than a Ford (as is Honda's dealer service)

Say what you want about the civic but you are in the minority ( It has been such a success it even surprised Honda)

I see Pickups being used for their purpose all the time.

Incidentally, that Chrysler 300. Not a bad car at all, but it doesn't drive too great. The rides not very good, steering is numb and very inaccurate around the straight-ahead and the interior is just so so.

A Honda DOES actually feel a lot tighter and better built. This is from someone who's driven recent exacmples of both. Actually driving a Dodge Charger at the moment (Chrysler 300 with a snarly face).

quote:

Originally posted by Palmira:
Absolutely right Wobbley, an horrendous car.

I can only think of one worse car than a new civic, now that Rover have finally given up churning out hideous re-chromed 1990s civics with paisley trim.

The award for the car-which-is-worse-than-a-civic goes to the Honda FRV. The award for the car-which-is-worse-than-a-civic goes to the Honda FRV.

Stands for F---ing Rubbish Vehicle.

They offend me so much i cant bear to look at them.

Indeed old bean!

Buy yourself a proper MPV with class, style, elegance and presence.

A Classy MPV like the Mercedes-Benz Vaneo and Viano, truly epic people movers with style and dignity.

I love the new Civic i want it but cant afford it

quote:

Originally posted by Mind blowing decision:

quote:

Originally posted by Palmira:
Absolutely right Wobbley, an horrendous car.

I can only think of one worse car than a new civic, now that Rover have finally given up churning out hideous re-chromed 1990s civics with paisley trim.

The award for the car-which-is-worse-than-a-civic goes to the Honda FRV. The award for the car-which-is-worse-than-a-civic goes to the Honda FRV.

Stands for F---ing Rubbish Vehicle.

They offend me so much i cant bear to look at them.

Indeed old bean!

Buy yourself a proper MPV with class, style, elegance and presence.

A Classy MPV like the Mercedes-Benz Vaneo and Viano, truly epic people movers with style and dignity.

What? Merc Vaneo...style and dignity? I hired one of these to help a friend move flat and it was ok. I wouldn't put it in the same boat as the Espace/Voyager though.

Are you serious.

back to topic, I was really impressed by the Civic hatch a while ago. I hated the Saloon which looked and felt boring, old and drab. Yes, it might be a bit style over substance, but is that a bad point? Alfa owners have been used to that for years. I'm impressed Honda had the guts to make it, quirks and all. In a market place of bland boxes, it's good to see some individuality. As for the plastics, Hondas have always had slightly questionalble interior finishes. My only worry is that the Eastbourne brigade won't have anything to upgrade to.

ignore palmy...his innate predjuidices are once again clouding his judgement..the civics only problem is its 'marmite' styling...love it or hate it stuff....it was widely publicised in many magazines (respected ones, not weekly tat...) that when the new civic was revealed, vw bosses in particular were scratching their heads in wonder at how honda could do such quality for the money..the new civic IS the benchmark for interior quality in this sector beating vws now distinctly dumbed down inferior product into a cocked hat....it says it all when the new golf comes it is to be built to a 'lower quality' than the old one, as the 'high quality' current item is costing too much to build and not making enough money...jeez, dont ya love car makers....we COULD make less and give you a qualtiy item, but we would rather make MORE money and give you second best....!!...the honda i feel, uncharacteristically, was perhaps hurried into production before a few mechanical and electrical problems were ironed out...this situation has now been redressed and the civic is now as monotonously reliable as any other honda product...

hey it wasnt me this time!

However I will say this:

Give me a choice of a VW Golf with a reasonable spec (GTI or R32 preferably) over one of those awful toy-town Civics any day of the week.

That Civic is an awful, plasticky contraption with awkward, gormless styling and is only good in Eastbourne dawdling round roundabouts piloted by inept OAPs.

The last model was gormless enough but the current one is eyewateringly ugly, plasticky and will date & look tatty very quickly.

Golfs are evergreen, built properly and have a discreet classlessness about them.

I saw an old 91 Mark 2 GTI yesterday & it still looked fresh! Probably horrible to drive by todays standards, but for a 15 year old hatchback it looked good.

VW were talking about reducing the quality because the Golf was costing them too much but i have a pal who has an 04 plate Golf and its very nice (for a hatchback!) ....

Re: People carriers, none of the Japanese ones are any good. All dynamically inept, too small and very ugly.

Voyager is the King of MPVs even though its been around a long time. Here in London the celeb fraternity seem to have switched to getting driven in Vianos now rather than Voyagers though. Viano is like a large van but its very large inside & quite luxurious as long as you get the 3.2 version & not the awful 2.2 diesel.

Hang onto your hat palmira - I am about to agree with you on something (in part anyway )

The Mk V golf will be around in mass for some time to come 15yrs plus

whereas the Mk VII Civic will be a rare machine indeed - in 15 years time (yes there will still be a couple floating around)

The Current Civic is something different from the humdrum hatchback of today - you either like it or hate it !!
but Honda can't make them fast enough they are still being snapped up like hotcakes and this is because its a Honda and this one is that little bit different

The Voyager is undoubtedly an awful, awful ball of dung. You call the Japanese ones dynamically in-ept??? I drove one of these things for around 9 months and it was bloody miserable.

Slow, inept steering, awful ride, terrible interior, roly poly handling (even by mini-van standards) but the worst by far was the brakes... my god I just don't know how they would even be considered legal...

But hey, as least it wasn't Japanese.

Ive owned two Grand Voyagers.

One was a 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan LE in America, and the other was a new-shape Chrysler Grand Voyager here in London.

Both were excellent. I would buy another if i needed one.

If theyre so awful , and the Jap ones are so good, why do you see celebs and high-rollers in Voyagers here and in America where Jap cars are popular? Why dont they go to their functions in a Grandis or Previa?

Simple answer: Theyre inferior.

The 3.3 Voyager is smooth, comfortable and stylish and has an interior which is more like a luxury car than a minivan.

Minivans are always going to be a compromise, but this is as close to a luxury model as it gets.

Before you tell me that the Voyager trades on its image and thats why theyre used by the wealthy or famous - why do you think it has an image? Chrysler is not a prestige maker.

It has an image because it is the best minivan available.

If celebs are so infallible, and Jap cars are so awful, then why the formers penchant for the Toyota Pious?

And Grand Caravans are certainly not high roller cars in North America. High rollers generally don't get minivans. Those that do buy Cadillac SRX's and Nissan Quests.

The Grand Caravan is the worst car I have ever driven in terms of quality, bad ride, poor uncorfortable seats, awful brakes and poor handling.

palmy your tugging at the boundary of credibility here...the voyager has continually been praised for its styling and versatility but roundly codemned for its lack of build quality and cheap low rent interiors....the espace, previa etc...are leagues ahead in build quality and driver enjoyment...

2001+ Voyager

"Pick of the engines is the 2.8 CRD which comes with an automatic transmission as standard. Diesel gives good all-round performance and is the better choice than the V6 petrol if you do a lot of cross-county driving. It has more urge and is easier to overtake with. Petrol units are suited to motorway work, but need to be revved harder to make fast progress. "


So Palmy, in terms of having a big car like the Voyager, the diesel is much better...do you discount every diesel engine, even if it is technically better suited to the car?

"Ride is disappointing. It's noisy and too many bumps can be felt in the cabin"

Speaks for its self

The european VM diesel engine is awful though Thats Soooo Fabulous.

It is noisy, crude and has no low-down power. Ive driven a 54 - plate loan car with that engine & it was awful, sounded like a tractor, wasnt very good on fuel (24.5 mpg) and had no get up and go, especially at town speeds.

The 3.3 version is very good. That V6 has been around a long time now but its torquey, smooth, quiet & excellent on a long journey. I disagree entirely that a diesel engine is better suited to this car. The 3.3 is the engine of choice.

There are alot of Quests in the US BG, but theyre rather ordinary and are still outsold in the Premium MPV category by the Voyager.

Big G, the Espace is a good MPV indeed - especially the 3.5 Initiale. I used to want one until i took a test drive. Build quality sadly is awful. The Voyager is still the best.

Mercedes Viano is good if you need acres of space - and the interior is very good indeed - a huge improvement on the appalling V-class.

Previas, Grandis, Shuttles etc are not in anything like the same league.

im afraid you have just rocketed down in my estimation...having been in both espace and voyager, i find it incredible that you say the chryslers build quality is better..its fisher price yankee tat...even a guy with a white stick and a labrador could feel the poor quality of the voyager......im surprised you have this one so wrong..

Quests are anything but ordinary Palmy. It is the singular most unique MPV on the market anywhere in the world. Anyone who wants to see, just take a look at [URL=www.nissan.ca]www.nissan.ca[/URL.

The Grand Caravan I was unfortunate enough to spend all my time in was the 3.3 V6 petrol, not the diesel (which, as I'm sure you know, is unavailable in North Am).

It did pull ok, but it drank like a fish. 17mpg was my average.

The auto tranmission was also dismal. Kicking down at stupid stuipid points, noticable delay on upshifts and downshifts. My collegue had a rental Kia MPV at the same time and I can tell you with absolute honesty that it was better in every way except acceleration.

Voyager is perhaps the worst car on sale today, now that the old Ford Galaxy has been laid to rest.

PS. Do VW still make the Sharan?

Espace, Previa, Grandis, Trajet, Sedona, FR-V, new Galaxy, the PSA/Fiat triplets (yes, really!) are much, much better than the nasty old Voyager.

Because Uncle Sam makes some of the worst cars ever.