Saw a 323i for sale:

1997
6 cyclinder engine
170 bhp
0-60 about 8 secs
240nm torque
£1700
£100k miles
30 mpg

Looks in good condition. Is this a good price? Is there anything in particualr I need to look out for on a 3 series of this age?
I've heard these 6 cyl engines are quite smooth, much better than the 318i fours.

That's a pretty good price IMO.

A decent 320i is ~£1200.

I made a thread about this car, I got told to be wary of lack of torque at low revs.

Is the one you're looking post or pre facelift??

The above price is for a coupe, not sure if that's what you're looking at, but £1700 still sounds pretty reasonable.

I don't know if its the facelift version. I know the next model came out around 1999.

Its a 4dr saloon. Not really into coupes. What would lack of torque at low revs mean in terms of everyday driveability (not a technical explanation)?

I think they look very solid, outside and in. A 323i is equivalent in power to the next model 320i.

As it's a 1997 version it sounds like it's post face-lift... are the indicator lenses clear?? I mean I know anyone can put clear lenses in, but the post face-lift version had clear lenses.

Well hill starts would be hard, as there wouldn't be much torque to get the power to the wheels, but if you rev it high its ok - it has short gearing to help with getting the torque quicker though.

As for everyday driving, stop-start driving in a town or something could become a pain, but I guess once you know how to rev it to get the best performance, it shouldn't be too bad.

I had a go in one briefly the other day, it didn't seem too bad, but it did need a bit of a kick to get going. I mean I was just in an old car park but it seemed quite plucky and it deffo isn't short of power for a car of it's size, even I could tell that.

Thing with revving it high is it might have a lower urban economy.

It doesn't have clear indicator lenses.

Hill starts - is this also something to do with the weight of car relative to its bhp? 170bhp is respectable but not remarkable I guess for this type of car. Would a 328i be a lot better? I think that only has about 20bhp extra.

I don't understand this business with having to rev (high power) petrol engines high to get some performance. In town my tdci is great, 2nd gear and takes care of most business without having to change downor up. Its also brilliant on the motorway. tdci engine + focus handling = v good drive

Why was this car badged 323 when it was a 2.5?

Do BMW think that we're all so stupid that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 325i & a 328i?

The 328i is a nice car and pretty quick too, plenty of low down torque on those I can assure you! Lots of toys aswell.

I was impressed when I went in one.

quote:

Originally posted by Syntax Error:
Why was this car badged 323 when it was a 2.5?

Do BMW think that we're all so stupid that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 325i & a 328i?

I don't know
The E46 316i and 318i were actually a 1.8 and a 2.0 respectively... I dunno why they don't badge them showing the actual engine size, not lowering it

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy_:

quote:

Originally posted by Syntax Error:
Why was this car badged 323 when it was a 2.5?

Do BMW think that we're all so stupid that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 325i & a 328i?

I don't know
The E46 316i and 318i were actually a 1.8 and a 2.0 respectively... I dunno why they don't badge them showing the actual engine size, not lowering it

It's not only BMW that do this; Mercedes do it a lot & Saab's 2 litre turbo (150 bhp) 9-3 model is badged 1.8t for some bizarre reason.

quote:

Originally posted by HP75:
It doesn't have clear indicator lenses.

Hill starts - is this also something to do with the weight of car relative to its bhp? 170bhp is respectable but not remarkable I guess for this type of car. Would a 328i be a lot better? I think that only has about 20bhp extra.

I don't understand this business with having to rev (high power) petrol engines high to get some performance. In town my tdci is great, 2nd gear and takes care of most business without having to change downor up. Its also brilliant on the motorway. tdci engine + focus handling = v good drive

The power output is respectable for the size of car but it's where that power and torque lies within the rev range that determines how many revs you need to get the best out of the engine. Torque in basic terms is how well the engine can cope under load i.e hill starts, lots of people in car, etc. With your TDCi it is a turbo diesel and has high torque relative to the power it produces and that torque is available low down in the rev range meaning you don't need to rev the engine. With the petrol BMW engines they have the torque higher up in the rev range meaning you have to rev the engine to access that torque and power. When pulling away in your TDCi you can just trickle away on tickover, but try that in the 323i and you'll likely stall. You'll need to dial up a few revs first, not mega, just to give the engine enough to fall back on when you drop the clutch.

It's the same with hills, overtaking, etc. You'll need to use a lower gear to access the power. As with any car you'll have to alter your driving style according to the car's characteristics.

Thanks for that explanation, I understand it a lot better now. Some questions from you post:

"Torque in basic terms is how well the engine can cope under load i.e hill starts, lots of people in car, etc" - so when a BMW 323i needs to call on its max torque and power, say while towing a caravan, it needs to be at about 4000rpm+ whereas in my tdci I can manage on 3000 rpm or less?

"With your TDCi it is a turbo diesel and has high torque relative to the power it produces and that torque is available low down in the rev range meaning you don't need to rev the engine" - so in a car with a very high torque value, much higher than mine, but also with very high bhp, that car would still need to rev highly to access its max power? So the higher the torque to power ratio the better (in all circumsatnces)? eg. NM/BHP

"With the petrol BMW engines they have the torque higher up in the rev range meaning you have to rev the engine to access that torque and power" - is this a charecteristic of petrol engines in the main or does it apply to the BMW engines more because its been developed that way for a sportier drive etc?

"When pulling away in your TDCi you can just trickle away on tickover, but try that in the 323i and you'll likely stall" - I can normally continue driving (pick up) from 1100rpm if I'm light on the throttle (eg entering a roundabout) without having to change down. But this is way below when the turbo kicks in so I have to "wait" for the power to come at 1800rpm+ and that can be a long wait if I'm in 3rd! Does this sort of thing labour the engine? When I used to drive a 1.2 petrol punto I could hear the middle exhaust section rattling if I tried this sort of thing but not in the tdci.

Lastly, does higher torque wear down your tyres quicker (and other components)? I was told this by a garage - the power is grinding your tyres down onto the road. In my car, especially in lower gears, I can actually feel a "force" that is pushing the car along. Not something I find in a petrol equivalent (eg 1.6 focus)

To get the maximum torque from the engine you will need to be around 4500rpm as opposed to your TDCi which is probably around 2500rpm.

With the high bhp and high torque car it depends on where the power or torque is produced in the rev range. You may not need to rev it too much.

Normally aspirated (non turbo) petrol engines normally have a lower torque figure produced at higher revs. The larger the engine, the more torque it will produce and at lower revs generally speaking. For example a large V8 engine will be more torquey low down and a smaller Honda engine for example will have a lower torque figure produced much higher up the revs. Turbo petrol engines in comparison have higher power and an increased torque figure produced lower in the revs, which is a characteristic of all turbo engines petrol and diesel. However a turbo diesel engine will generally produce slightly less power but much more torque and lower still within the revs. You pays your money and you takes your choice, whichever suits your driving style or needs the most.

Don't worry about labouring the engine on a modern tdi, they are quite happy to pull from idle in any gear, although it's probably better for mpg to keep it in the powerband where it's working more efficiently.

Higher torque will increase tyre wear of the driven wheels as the tyres are working harder to put more power down on the road.

It's not all that good operating a TD in the laggy area, you won't pull much, or go very far.

Even the excellent CRV 2.2 TD i have is useless below 1,500 rpm.