is the specialist car industry missing a trick...or even the established players....i grew up with petrol in my veins....i was car daft from a very early age, so were many of my friends, so are many many young 'uns nowdays..
..what is on offer for these petrolheads...a sporty c2, a corsa sxi...these cars teach our youngsters two things..understeer and depreciation...imagine a real, cheap, ie sub, say, 5k, maybe cheaper, ENTHUSIAST car....and before we go on about safety and the like, we think, some of us anyhow, nothing about letting our kids on the road on a 50-125 ccc deathtrap with zero crash protection, a scooter or trail bike for instance....
i feel we can draw parralels between the bike and car industrys...kids who are into bikes start off with affordable, 'sports' mopeds/scooters/125 road bikes, learniing their art before moving on, slowly but surely , too bigger, better and faster things...by the time they get to the biggr bikes they have learnt the skills needed for the transition, by and large..(or had a big spill and been put off bikes for good...)
..imagine if you will an atom type fun car, marketed for youngsters/entry level enthusiasts..a road legal genuine fun car with, say, a litre or less, superb mpg, vivid acceleration and great roadholding....and available from a showroom near you for less than the price of a c1....
...top sppeds for such cars would be irrelevant and as such, kept down by design/engineering to around 100mph..this kind of car would be for fun/commuting...and yes, would be impractical..but any more so than a 125cc bike or the like??..
.i feel sure if the insurance issues could be redressed, ie if a few 'big' manufacturers got involved and manufactured a proven 'safe', easily fixed car within the budget constraints, they would sell to young, and old enthusiasts like the proverbial hot cakes...and may have the knock on effect that our kids actually learn about drivin rather than ensconsing them in dull, aneasthatised safety where an accident seems like a playstation game to them..this would ultimately produce a generation of safer drivers with more skill!!....
...think back, throughout history there have been riley imps, mg midgets, frogeye sprites available for the young, or young at heart..and yes, we get, or got, the smart roadster, the copen etc..etc..but these cars are expensive and difficult to maintain....im thinking a real raw, uncompromised back to basics car for FUN....
..a potential gap in the market or pie in the sky????....
any reason why a big manufacturer like vw or similar couldnt produce a car of this sort with a high ncap or similar rating???....what they spend on safety, torisional rigidity etc..they are gonna save on trim levels, in car entertainment etc...etc....
im taking one 'trim' level for this car...BASIC..no frills, no i.c.e, no heater, minimal bodywork etc....manufacturers could make serious money in the accesories market for these, sell the car in one trim level only and allow owners to upgrade to their hearts content....
this kinda car would not neccessarrilly be the youngsters daily transport, tho those that use scooters etc...would find it more useable than those!!...but could be used as such if they wanted....
it would also be a good way to ensure brand loyalty in the future..introduce a new market sector to a fun, cheap way of motoring, good after sales etc..and if the experience is good, you create brand loyalty...this doesnt happen with citroen etc...as as soon as the young drivers can fford the insurance, the furio or the like is dumped and something else perceived as more desireable is bought....
Good ideas, but let's give the kids some praise, they've been doing this for years.
Lots of keen first motorists are thrilled to pick up a nicely-depreciated, 1 lady owner 4-5yr old hatch, regardless of spec or engine, and then put they're own individual mark on it. And there's a
Citroen unwittingly dipped into this with the Saxo, offering it heavily discounted with free insurance for the first year. They subsequently started a smallish phenomenon, with the Saxo arguably still the boy-racer weapon of choice. They missed a trick by not making the mods and upgrades themselves, but those probably wouldnt have matched the custom market manufacturers anyhow.
Of course, insurance is the big problem. Even piffling little motors cost hundreds in insurance for a 18-20yr old. And with good reason - 1 in 10 cars is uninsured and claims are at an all time high. Our cars may be safer, but our driving (and driving conditions) are worse.
I'm 37 and I have plenty of time for boy racers and the whole mod scene. It's good to see teenagers and young twenties taking pride in their cars, re-vitalising old motors (which is a far greener activity than any Prius owner) talking mods and comparing cars. They're certainly not a menace, as some motorists incorrectly assume. Inner-city gangs, stabbing, drugs and alcohol abuse - that's a menace.
I'm not convinced that things have changed from when I was a kid - we spent out money on old cars and depending on our inclination either mod-ed them or travelled all over the place in them - I don't remember any of my pals owning a new car... and the motorbike scene wasn't much different either other than most were on small motorbikes rather than mopeds...
Why produce a new car when a secondhand one does the same job?
The likes of Nox has proved that use of sh cars is ok for this type of use, though the AX/Saxo saga proves there's a market for new, though mods of other cars, noticably the Corsa, seems equally popular...
It would be interesting to hear from other Mod-ers if they want a car specifically designed for that purpose or if they would rather have the opportunity of mod-ing just about anything as they do now....
good points, but somehwta missing the point i feel...i too have nothing against 'boy racers'...we all, to a certain extent did it..i used to have a pair of cibie oscars which i religously bolted onto just about every car i woned between 18-22 yrs old!!
my point is, there is nothing like a spridget these days..nothing affordable, light, lithe and fun....the modern day itteration of the ethos of the spridget/lotus 7 etc..are the caterhamsd, the atoms, the x-bows.....
...a lower powered., poverty spec model sold and marketed to the young and young at heart would teach them buckets about driving, and would, i believe, sell in good enough numbers to make such a project viable...
i dont mean self assembly, diy sierra running gear lash ups, i mean factory fresh, safe, reliable turn key product....if the indians etc..can churn out city cars and sell them for the equivelant of 1500 in their home markets, 4k here, how long is it till someon cottons onto this idea for real back to basics no frils entry level sportscars...
Originally posted by XNtrikalfaman: good points, but somehwta missing the point i feel...i too have nothing against 'boy racers'...we all, to a certain extent did it..i used to have a pair of cibie oscars which i religously bolted onto just about every car i woned between 18-22 yrs old!!
my point is, there is nothing like a spridget these days..nothing affordable, light, lithe and fun....the modern day itteration of the ethos of the spridget/lotus 7 etc..are the caterhamsd, the atoms, the x-bows.....
...a lower powered., poverty spec model sold and marketed to the young and young at heart would teach them buckets about driving, and would, i believe, sell in good enough numbers to make such a project viable...
i dont mean self assembly, diy sierra running gear lash ups, i mean factory fresh, safe, reliable turn key product....if the indians etc..can churn out city cars and sell them for the equivelant of 1500 in their home markets, 4k here, how long is it till someon cottons onto this idea for real back to basics no frils entry level sportscars...
Fair point, but there's a couple of factors weighing against your ideas.
Hot hatches - since the Golf GTI, the vast majority of young motorists want a hot hatch. That's their idea of a 'sports' car. I craved a 205 GTI back in the day, not a Mk1 MX-5.
Also, theirs the image thing..... the car you're alluding to, regardless of simple engineering quality, cheap running costs might simply not be 'serious' enough for a young impressionable motorist.
Finally I fear that "a modern day itteration of the ethos of the spridget/lotus 7 etc..are the caterhamsd, the atoms, the x-bows....." would carry prohibitive insurance premiums. The boy racers go for the Saxo, 106, Clio, Punto, Fiesta because they carry low insurance premiums. Why blow money on insurance when it can be spent on mods?
Originally posted by XNtrikalfaman: any reason why a big manufacturer like vw or similar couldnt produce a car of this sort with a high ncap or similar rating???....what they spend on safety, torisional rigidity etc..they are gonna save on trim levels, in car entertainment etc...etc....
im taking one 'trim' level for this car...BASIC..no frills, no i.c.e, no heater, minimal bodywork etc....manufacturers could make serious money in the accesories market for these, sell the car in one trim level only and allow owners to upgrade to their hearts content....
this kinda car would not neccessarrilly be the youngsters daily transport, tho those that use scooters etc...would find it more useable than those!!...but could be used as such if they wanted....
it would also be a good way to ensure brand loyalty in the future..introduce a new market sector to a fun, cheap way of motoring, good after sales etc..and if the experience is good, you create brand loyalty...this doesnt happen with citroen etc...as as soon as the young drivers can fford the insurance, the furio or the like is dumped and something else perceived as more desireable is bought....
and i direct you back to this^^...im not saying its a replacement for the hot hatch, just a forst step on the ladder for real enthusiasts....if a big manufacturer could make an atom type entry level sportscar with great safety and decent performance that was cheap to fix and strong, why would it be lumbered with a high insurance group??...
An 'Atom-type' car would weigh very little, be thus extremely quick and would probably not be very 'safe', so insurance premiums would be huge for young people.
Originally posted by Knockside: A brilliant idea and one which could really work, but I fear with Euro NCAP so set in peoples minds these days, it could never happen.
As usual, the men in Brussels are ruining our lives.
You are spot on knockside. Just a few weeks back we have Tata announce a car costing around the £1000 mark. It's a very basic car but it's rear wheel drive and has more power than what we used to drive in our youth. It would be much cheaper to import them as they are and let the youngsters lose on them. But from what is rumoured if it were to be imported into rip-off GB it will be upwards of £4K and not just 'cos of the "safety"modifications that will be needed to pacify Brussels.
Originally posted by Bamford: An 'Atom-type' car would weigh very little, be thus extremely quick and would probably not be very 'safe', so insurance premiums would be huge for young people.
with a small..dare i say even a diesel engine, it wouldnt have to be ridiculously accelerative..smart roadster is lucky to beat ten secs to sixty yet feels an absolute hoot...and such a car would be really, really cheap to run..no, or a minimal of costly panels to replace, low tyre and brake wear due to low weight, superb mpg.....the srot of thing chapman was designing in the fities but upadated for todays roads...
I'm still not convinced that kids in the 60s and 70s bought "spridgets" or equivelent - all the people I knew had run of the mill saloons like the Escort, Mini, Imp and 1300s - all the 2 seater sports cars tended to be owned by elder people (ie 25yrs+!) - for the same reason as now - and if I remember rightly even a slightly modified Escort or Mini could run rings round a Midget or Spitfire - great names, crap performance....
If its a step on the ladder (by that I assume you mean not their first car) then the current crop of kit cars do the job.
Sorry, XN I think I may be missing something as I'm not convinced the market it big enough - how about a stripped out version of a current car - say the C2?
Originally posted by b308: I'm still not convinced that kids in the 60s and 70s bought "spridgets" or equivelent - all the people I knew had run of the mill saloons like the Escort, Mini, Imp and 1300s - all the 2 seater sports cars tended to be owned by elder people (ie 25yrs+!) - for the same reason as now - and if I remember rightly even a slightly modified Escort or Mini could run rings round a Midget or Spitfire - great names, crap performance....
If its a step on the ladder (by that I assume you mean not their first car) then the current crop of kit cars do the job.
Sorry, XN I think I may be missing something as I'm not convinced the market it big enough - how about a stripped out version of a current car - say the C2?
probably not explaining this very well...the current crop of specialist cars are very fast, very expensive and very dear to insure....im thinking along the lines that this type of car is, in actual fact, perfect for young, and the young at heart to enjoy..i aint saying that all the kids drove midgets etc..in the 60's and 70's but there was always that option..and that type of car, relatively small, simple, light has been replaced by basic superminis, which by and large offer the same amount of drivng pleasure as a bou8ncy castle..(a generalsitaion, some are much better han others..)
im not actuall claiming thta there is a huge gap in the market, my intital post was a question..IS there a gap..are manufacturers missing a trick...speaking for myself, a young at heart 38 year old, id buy a new car for the first time in my life if there was a basic no frills caterham/atomesque type no frills commuter roadster on the market for around 4 k that offered fun, economy and safety....kit cars just dont do it for me..would you let your nearest and earest out in a car that may have been badly assembled using substandard parts by a half blind alcoholic in a poorly lit lock up....??
Originally posted by b308: I'm still not convinced that kids in the 60s and 70s bought "spridgets" or equivelent - all the people I knew had run of the mill saloons like the Escort, Mini, Imp and 1300s - all the 2 seater sports cars tended to be owned by elder people (ie 25yrs+!) - for the same reason as now - and if I remember rightly even a slightly modified Escort or Mini could run rings round a Midget or Spitfire - great names, crap performance....
If its a step on the ladder (by that I assume you mean not their first car) then the current crop of kit cars do the job.
Sorry, XN I think I may be missing something as I'm not convinced the market it big enough - how about a stripped out version of a current car - say the C2?
probably not explaining this very well...the current crop of specialist cars are very fast, very expensive and very dear to insure....im thinking along the lines that this type of car is, in actual fact, perfect for young, and the young at heart to enjoy in a basic less powerful version..i aint saying that all the kids drove midgets etc..in the 60's and 70's but there was always that option..and that type of car, relatively small, simple, light has been replaced by basic superminis, which by and large offer the same amount of drivng pleasure as a bou8ncy castle..(a generalsitaion, some are much better han others..)
im not actuall claiming thta there is a huge gap in the market, my intital post was a question..IS there a gap..are manufacturers missing a trick...speaking for myself, a young at heart 38 year old, id buy a new car for the first time in my life if there was a basic no frills caterham/atomesque type no frills commuter roadster on the market for around 4 k that offered fun, economy and safety....kit cars just dont do it for me..would you let your nearest and earest out in a car that may have been badly assembled using substandard parts by a half blind alcoholic in a poorly lit lock up....??
I think there could be a market. Many automotive advances came through people taking a chance on a gap in the market. Who would have thought that people wanted an upmarket farmers utility vehicle (Range Rover)?
TBH with you guys I find many modern cars somewhat dull. Hired a new Astra the other day and it did everything written on the box and had solid build quality and chunky controls...yet it was so dull. It was probably faster than 90% of 70's and 80's sportscars it just didn't feel like it.
I think cars have become bloated. Loaded down with weight, 'safety' and luxury. When have we become so lazy and so obese that we demand electric hoods on convertibles?
I would enjoy a bit of simplicity. I would enjoy a lightweight sports car along these lines with an aluminium chassis, convertible and although it may not be truly fast still handle and feel as if it was.
