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For the last 20 years all the western nations have lost mass manufacturing jobs to the emerging economies. They are just not competitive enough. But we have not grown poorer as a result. It's just that we have specialised in the service sectors that need highly paying skills. Look at the city which is a growth sector and the number of billionaires setting up homes/offices in London.
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quote: Originally posted by craigjm:
A lot of the call centre jobs etc are coming back as it has been recognised by progressive companies that the quality was not there.
Good. Hopefully 'my' companies will do the same.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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I don't doubt that the millionaires and billionaires are doing quite nicely but when i ring Virgin Media support, about my internet and talk to a guy in Delhi, i know that's another job we've lost in the UK. Also, the unemployment figure is massaged, Boig, it's way higher in reality.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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quote: Originally posted by craigjm:
It doesnt matter which country a car is built in, its the quality that counts. If that quality can be better with a car being built elsewhere then so be it and if it leads to lower prices (doubtful) even better. However, lets not panic here and start to do a chicken licken about the sky of the economy falling in as jobs move abroad. We need good quality jobs in this country or we end up sliding down the route of all the jobs being created are retail which are not good quality jobs. To counter that we need to get the education system right, churning out workers who are skilled and useful to the economy. Then we can start to look at what jobs we fight for and which battles we can win. To me that is about saying bye bye to manufacturing jobs.
Interestingly though, the current economic situation and jobs like these going to eastern europe has started to have the effect of eastern europeans who have come to the UK going home. Maybe, just maybe, if we really want to do a manufacturering job we should go with them. Freedom of EU movement works both ways and if you dont like the job market in the UK then move!
Actually,if you are refering to me I live in Greece |
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In economic terms, Europe is now, and has been for some time, one country. I like the idea of evenly spread wealth, of everyone getting along, the unlikelihood of wars (except maybe civil wars). Merc et al will charge a premium for the reason they always have, quality costs. Things like thoroughness of crash testing and wheel bearing quality cost money. The cars will still be schwabian engineering. People who work on car lines dont need to be bright, just diligent, and get there on time.
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quote: Originally posted by Bamford:
I don't doubt that the millionaires and billionaires are doing quite nicely but when i ring Virgin Media support, about my internet and talk to a guy in Delhi, i know that's another job we've lost in the UK.
Also, the unemployment figure is massaged, Boig, it's way higher in reality.
It's not massaged. It's optimistically defined for obvious (and arguably dubious) reasons but the figures are consistently calculated. If there were a jobs exodus, that figure would be going up. It isn't. .....serves you right for choosing cable anyway 
_________________________
"Forward", he cried, from the rear, and the front rank died.
And the General sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side.
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The fact remains that the estimated 10,000 jobs that went to the east last year are jobs that we've lost.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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I think most of those unemployed have a better reason than jobs being unavailable.I don't think the jobless figure has changed alot from before the expansion to the east and now. And all the east europeans i know are employed so obviously the jobs were available. From what i know few british employers will employ an east european if there is a british guy with similar qualifications available.
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Politically correct quotas mean that often, ethnic minorities with a poorer record get the job over a far more suitable and more skilled white Englishman! Just look at the Police and their positive discrimination culture.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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quote: Originally posted by Bamford:
Politically correct quotas mean that often, ethnic minorities with a poorer record get the job over a far more suitable and more skilled white Englishman!
Just look at the Police and their positive discrimination culture.
That just isn't true. +ve discrimination policies are, in the vast majority of cases where they are applied, very clearly defined (they have to be as their scope is restricted by statute .... see below). A worker with an ethnic/racial profile that fits a quota criterium only gains under the policy if it can be shown they are equally suitable and/or qualified to perform the job. No +ve discrimination policy affords the choice of a less capable candidate. To do that would breach the Equal Opportunities Act and expose those responsible to prosecution.
_________________________
"Forward", he cried, from the rear, and the front rank died.
And the General sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side.
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All the people on the programme must have been 'wrong' then, all of whom failed to get higher-ranked jobs, but lesser-qualified ones got them on the basis of quota fixing! I am sorry but i disagree. I am more than happy that the programme was accurate, Boig.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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This is one area where i am full-square behind Oli and Palmy. It is high time we stopped the ever-increasing plague of political correctness.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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Just as the 2008 South African football and cricket sides have to have so many blacks in the team, even if they are not good enough.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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quote: Originally posted by Bamford:
All the people on the programme must have been 'wrong' then, all of whom failed to get higher-ranked jobs, but lesser-qualified ones got them on the basis of quota fixing!
I am sorry but i disagree. I am more than happy that the programme was accurate, Boig.
Quotas are a slightly different issue to positive discrimination (to which my point related, sorry if that wasn't clear). Many argue (I'm one of them) that fixed quotas are de facto illegal as they breach the statutory principle that jobs be allocated first and foremost on the basis of capability. Any +ve discrimination should only be enforced on the basis that first criteria is met. If the 5-oh are making a fudge of it then I'm with you .... they ought to stop.
_________________________
"Forward", he cried, from the rear, and the front rank died.
And the General sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side.
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Ah, ok, got you, no probs.
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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positive discrimination is illegal.
What a company can do is undertake what is called positive action. There is a difference.
An example....
Lets say a company recognises that it doesnt have a board which is representative as it doesnt have any women directors. It can put in place training initiatives to skill up women who have the potential to take on these roles. This should in theory level the playing field then when it comes to assessment and selection. That is positive action. What they cannot do is positive discrimination which is basically say, we need a woman and promote one regardless of ability.
If this occurs then any unsuccessful candidate will, if they can show the evidence, have a successful case at an employment tribunal.
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Quota's are also illegal in employment law. Police forces, however, are made to try and reflect the makeup of their local community in their ranks. They cannot do this by setting a quota of employing so many from a certain minority etc. The only way they can influence it is to think about where they advertise the posts (such as in ethnic newspapers instead of the times)
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surely no point building a factory in poland..all the poles are in tayside....
point to the north pole on the globe, then the south pole...then tayside..cos thats where the rest of the poles are...
..and i for one am delighted..i have about 10-20 polish employees and they are fantastically dilligent, have a tremendous work ethic..and tend to be built like bomb shelters....
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quote: Originally posted by craigjm:
positive discrimination is illegal.
What a company can do is undertake what is called positive action. There is a difference.
An example....
Lets say a company recognises that it doesnt have a board which is representative as it doesnt have any women directors. It can put in place training initiatives to skill up women who have the potential to take on these roles. This should in theory level the playing field then when it comes to assessment and selection. That is positive action. What they cannot do is positive discrimination which is basically say, we need a woman and promote one regardless of ability.
If this occurs then any unsuccessful candidate will, if they can show the evidence, have a successful case at an employment tribunal.
That's interesting, so how would this example work: Let's say, for arguments sake, that England is made up of 60% white people and 40% people who are green. Now, I own a company and notice that on my board, there are 7 white people and only 3 green ones. One of the white board members retires and leaves me with a post to fill. I have two candidates, one white, one green .... both have the same credentials ,experience and qualifications, both would make equally competant board members. If I then choose the green one on the basis of his colour, would I have broken the law, given that both were equally worthy candidates anyway?
_________________________
"Forward", he cried, from the rear, and the front rank died.
And the General sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side.
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They'd probably knight you...
CATERHAM R400 SUPERLIGHT COMING SOON.
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I could handle that ...
_________________________
"Forward", he cried, from the rear, and the front rank died.
And the General sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side.
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quote: Originally posted by Boig: quote: Originally posted by craigjm:
positive discrimination is illegal.
What a company can do is undertake what is called positive action. There is a difference.
An example....
Lets say a company recognises that it doesnt have a board which is representative as it doesnt have any women directors. It can put in place training initiatives to skill up women who have the potential to take on these roles. This should in theory level the playing field then when it comes to assessment and selection. That is positive action. What they cannot do is positive discrimination which is basically say, we need a woman and promote one regardless of ability.
If this occurs then any unsuccessful candidate will, if they can show the evidence, have a successful case at an employment tribunal.
That's interesting, so how would this example work: Let's say, for arguments sake, that England is made up of 60% white people and 40% people who are green. Now, I own a company and notice that on my board, there are 7 white people and only 3 green ones. One of the white board members retires and leaves me with a post to fill. I have two candidates, one white, one green .... both have the same credentials ,experience and qualifications, both would make equally competant board members. If I then choose the green one on the basis of his colour, would I have broken the law, given that both were equally worthy candidates anyway?
Yes Boig you would have broken the law. For it to be a fair decision you would have to look back at the assessment data and decide which criteria had the heaviest weighting in terms of the skills, knowledge etc required and then recruit whoever that favours. If you have two equal candidates you have to show what the secondary criteria is that you have used to decide and it has to be lawful. In the situation you describe with exact results then the white person would have a claim of racial discrimination against you as an employer. Their course of redress and potential penalty however are different depending on whether they are already an employee and its internal promotion or if they are external seeking a job. |
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quote: Originally posted by XNtrikalfaman:
surely no point building a factory in poland..all the poles are in tayside....
point to the north pole on the globe, then the south pole...then tayside..cos thats where the rest of the poles are...
..and i for one am delighted..i have about 10-20 polish employees and they are fantastically dilligent, have a tremendous work ethic..and tend to be built like bomb shelters....
You need to be careful now. No need to discriminate (positive/negative) against the natives, i.e British workers. |
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