quote:

Originally posted by dixiehare:

quote:

Originally posted by TopperT:
Hi Dixiehare,

Yes there have been changes to the law but when you bought however, did you receive a permit with the property? If so it should be straight forward. If 1972 was pre authorisation I'll check with a Notary tomorrow for you.


Thanks

Yes, we have a permit, which was done legally back in 1972 for my husband and we converted ownership to moi as well (with a Swiss notary doing the legals)about three years ago. (He assured us that this would make no legal problems for us on selling.)

All papers are therefore in order and we suspect tho are not certain that the swiss estate agent is trying to bounce us into selling low as fast as possible.

Hi Dixiehare,

I'n which case you should be able to sell it without a problem and I can certainly assist you. I cant type it again but if you go to pg 4 of this topic Buying a Swiss chalet as a business I have a link there for you to use re Bank Managers in Switzerland.

Thanks

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Toggi:
Have really enjoyed reading all comments a very informative site, thankyou everyone!. We look like we have come to buy too late in Haute nenedaz, but we have been told that we could apply for abusiness permit B which would mean setting up costs and give the Swiss government an income each year. We have been told that this permit would take 2 months to process, but not guaranteed to be approved. We are hopping to use the chalet we wanrt to buy for a few weeks holidays each year and to also let it out, this apparently curries some favour as there are too many cold beds in Nendaz. I wondered if any one else has gone through this process of applying for a Permit B by setting up a buisness before hand. I have also heared that tthere may be a Permit G coming out which could be used by foreigners.

Toggi

Toggi, what are you looking to buy? Apartment or chalet?

We are hoping to buy a chalet, but have just heard today from a contact who uses a Swiss accountant that the law now does not allow you to buy a chalet with a business B permit, appartently with this permit you can only buy a commercial property and no longer a chalet as the swiss government has got wise to this. Any comments would be very welcome. Also sounds like you are developing in this area. Have you already secured permits for foreigners to buy in your developments

Toggi

Hi Toggi,

The situation in Valais is extremly complex right now. There is a document being issued anytime now that will provide more information on what can and can't be done and everyone is waiting on this.

I'd suggest speaking directly with a Notary as opposed to a contact who knows a Swiss Accountant. Its they who will understand the letter of the law.

Were you looking to apply for a permit for Residency and to pay your taxes there? If so my understanding is this is still ok and we have several clients going through the process to build chalets in Haute Nendaz via this route.

If this is not a possibility for you, then I suggest if you want to build and own a chalet you need to look at some of the other Canton's such as Vaud and Berne or opt to purchase re-sale chalet with a Permit that will transfer with the property in Valais.

Hi Topper

thanks for that. We have a possibility of purchasing a chalet in haute nendaz owned buy a foreigner.Or appling for a permit and buying a new build, The older property would be mean less rental income than a new build chalet. My understanding is that it is rather a long shot applying for a permit and and getting it. If we applied for the permit in order to buy the new chalet we would be able to realise much more in rental income to cover costs. Its either take a chance with the permit or just buy the other chalet. Have you any idea what the likely hood of gaining a residency permit would be.

many thanks

toggi

Hi Toggi,

Drop me an email via the way I suggested to dixiehare above (we've been a case study for A Place in the Sun Magazine so they are ok to leave our details on here) and I'll give you the name of a specialist English speaking Notary in Sion who deals with residency for clients of ours.

You can have a preliminary chat over the phone with him and he'll tell you whether he thinks you have a case. If not go for the re-sale.

I'm not sure which bank you are planning to use but know some have tax specialists they can put you in touch with also.

Thanks

Rosied,

We have a Chalet in Les Collons that we want some renovation work done on. Can you recommend a builder?

Also can I be so cheeky as to as how much you got done for £35k? We are not sure whether to go for a few alterations or go for a major refurbishemnt, extending the chalet. This is obviously dependent on cost and we have no idea of how much work costs to get done. Although improving all the time our Frensh isn't good enough for conversations about building work, so we don't know where to go.

Any advice (from anyone) appreciated.

Hi Loup,

Happy to spill the beans about building work costs. When I read that you were intending to do up your chalet I reached for the vodka - you are very brave and all I can tell you is it'll be worth it in the end! Presumably you live elsewhere and would be doing this from the UK/remotely as we did? Then I saw the word 'extension' and that needs a double!

For £35k:

FLOOR - had the existing (vile) exterior stone floor tiles removed from the living room & kitchen areas (40m2), had the floor levelled and the new gorgeous limestone tiles laid & grouted (NB - INSIST on only having 2mm gaps).

CHIMNEY BREAST (2 storeys high): had the old very rough icing cake 'crepi' plastered over with smooth (lisse) plaster.

KITCHEN: the existing 1974 one was ripped out, and new one put in (eventually...real scam to watch out for here...we wanted to keep some of the relatively new applicances, which the kitchen co. assured us would be fine. Au contraire - turned out they 'made a mistake' and we would have to buy all new appliances for 'just another £2k'. I refused and offered to call their MD in Geneva to 'help them sort it out'. Needless to say we got all new appliances gratis. I was so angry I nearly had a canary at that one. Fitted kitchens with new appliances for a small one like ours I'd say £8k, to £20k all up depending on size. NB: Swiss kitchen fitters don't do electrics or plumbing - you have to arrange and pay extra for it to all be connected.

BATHROOMS X 2 + 1 CLOAKROOM - all the old 70s wall and floor tiles removed and new limestone & marble laid.

All the old sinks & illuminated cabinets removed and replaced with shiny new ones.

2 of the 3 lavatories were cracked so these were replaced.

Shower cubicle completely retiled & sealed and new ceiling light installed

BEDROOMS: newly carpeted and decorated throughout. New wall and ceiling lights installed (got these from ebay...with a load of other stuff for the apartment - the table & chairs etc.) NB: builders buy the cheapest loo seats available and charge around £100 for them when really great ones are only £30 in Jumbo.

BALCONIES: sanded the lethal-when-wet balcony floors (40m2) and surfaced with anti-slip rubber paint in dark grey.

Work we did ourselves to save money - all the wall tile removal (not the floors), all the decorating, painting the exterior woodwork, and all the balcony work.

Work we couldn't do ourselves: floor tiling (and the marble wall tiles in the shower-room - requires a heavy-duty electric water-cooled tile cutter), plastering, plumbing, electrics, kitchen installation.

And then furnished and kitted the place out to be suitable for top-end self catering sleeping 8/10.

So, here are my Top Eleven Tips for doing up places in the Swiss Alps:

1) Allow at least one year
2) Never hire (much cheaper) odd-job men or ski instructors to do building/tiling/plastering work 'off-season' - handsome but hopeless!
3) Accept you'll have to pay at least twice London prices for good workmen, if not thrice (so between £600 - £900 per day!!) There are some cheaper good ones around, but they're booked until 2010.
4) Bear in mind they will all take 1.5 hours for lunch and finish around 4.30pm latest, but they do start promptly from 8am onwards
5) Try as we did to buy materials locally, it worked out that it was still half the price to buy all our stone tiles from London, and ship them out, compared to buying exactly the same ones in Sion! NB: have a good reasonably priced UK shipper if anyone's interested
7) Go out there as often as possible - at least every month for a weekend to see what's what
8) Hire a (good) project manager if you can - we didn't and got there in the end by sheer willpower and stubborness
9) If you're a bloke it'll be easier as the Swiss didn't grant regional votes to women until 1991. Whenever I answered the door they peered round me to see where Monsieur was...great, except he doesn't speak one mot of French
10) I now have a comprehensive glossary of English-French building & decorating phrases which I'll happily send to anyone who wants it. Including the phrase 'That tiling/plastering will have to be done again', and also some extremely rude words for under-the-breath muttering.

And 11) assume nothing. Discuss everything in advance with your workmen. Right down to the precise shade of grouting. The length of the pipe beneath the sink. They actually like you taking an interest - I think!

So. Don't necessarily be put off. It's always a trial getting any work done in any country as you know.

My advice would be to get a list of (good) workmen from your Swiss estate agent (if you trust him)/other Brits in Les Collon, or ask on this site - and try them out on some smaller improvement projects before you take the plunge and do the extension.

I discovered that Swiss workmen don't travel far from their local area. Haute Nendaz is a building site and has been since 2006, so we found ourselves having to pay top dollar to tempt workmen away from the many new build contracts they were already working on. You might find more workmen available in Les Collons - or not.

I wouldn't worry about not being able to speak much French - we muddled through with pre-prepared phrases taken from internet translation sites, and a lot of miming.

It was stressful, and very time-consuming - but our place is now wonderful to be in, and we're really glad we got it done up.

A bientot,
Rosied

Loup,

PS: for structural work such as building an extension you'll undoubtedly want to consider hiring a decent architect to draw up the plans. No idea if such work needs planning permission (or even if they have such a thing in the Swiss Alps) or whether the square footage limit applies to properties already owned.

Suggest you have a look at directories. Or Yellow Pages effectively, and search under architects/builders - there's quite a few listed in your area.

These people SHOULD be able to give you the legal ins and outs of structural work.

A bientot,
Rosied

rosied,

Oh, dear that's put me off. I'm reaching for the wine as we speak!!

Refurbishing the chalet is an option we're considering at the moment but not a definate. It's complicated but basically our personal situation has changed and we need to either downsize our property here and live over there or sell up over there. So,we're also considering trying to wriggle out of the 5 year restriction and selling up! (Does anyone know a way out?..other than divorce or bankruptcy)

Generally we've found the whole business of owning a chalet in Switzerland to be a headache. Not speaking the language doesn't help but we have found the Swiss bureaucracy difficult as well as the lack of information. We still can't figure out what our commune taxes will be!!

It sounds like you are lucky in Nendaz with local help. The agencies in Les Collons and Les Masses are awful. Very expensive, unreliable and unhelpful but there are no alternatives. We had hoped to leave the whole rental thing in the hands of the angency but we were getting emails from English clients complaining that the agency weren't responding to them, refused to accept credit cards over the phone and in one case claimed the client hadn't paid, even though they had a receipt saying they had! Nightmare!! Never again!!

Anyway, if we do keep the chalet we would live (unofficially) out there for a year or two. So things like updating kitchens and bathrooms we would do ourselves. Our main concern is that the rooms are quite small so we would like to extend a metre around three sides. We got an architect to come and have a look but they never came back to us! So, we don't know if it's finacially viable to extend the chalet or not.

Interesting what you said about painting the outside. The outside of ours is in quite a poor state (it's 20 years old and last owner didn't do anything) and so we have been quoted for a local builder to do it (electric sander all over, 1 coat of colour and 2 of varnish) and they will charge about 4K(GBP). We know they do good work because we found them while they were doing a neighbouring chalet and they have done a really nice job. Thre trouble is it's a lot of money and we've had conflicting advice on whether it needs to be sanded down and then coated with colour and varnish or whether we can just slap a coat on top.

The difference to your situation is really that we are not trying to make the chalet top quality, we would just like it to be a bit bigger and up dated in parts...if we keep it.

I'm glad yours has worked out so well for you. Thanks for the advice!

As an neutral, bilingual, observer, with no property in the Alps and no intention of buying any I'd just like to say to you all BEWARE. Transmontagne is not coming back and you are pawns in a longstanding battle between the 4Vallées operators Telenendaz, Téléveysonnaz and so on.
There are immensely complex cross-shareholdings which are being manipulated for control of all sorts of resources way beyond the extent of your renovations and financial problems.
Remember the 4Vallées is really about 6.5 valleys who have been at war since the middle ages and Swiss property law is not much more advanced. The innocent foreigner is just a good source of funds.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by carolchi:
Hey Carolchi


What you say about the battle of the 4 vallees is correct. There is a battle between Televerbier on one side and televeysonnaz and Telenendaz on the other side with in fact manipulation for the control function but on the end televerbier will take the power.
The struggle will be difficult for Televerbier because
since June 2007 telenendaz has placed its Alpivision Télénendaz shares in another company called ER and especially participations has only 30% of the shares of the latter, 70% return to shareholders Jean-Marie Fournier, Philippe Lathion and brothers Jean-Jacques and Damien Bornet who have also contributed their shares Télénendaz. So they should allow ER participations to hold the majority shareholder of Télénendaz.
But on the other side Televerbier has already 12 % of telenendaz and 30 % of Telethyon.
It’s all about money. In the end they find a solution for the futur of the 4 vallees because it is in fact the largest swiss ski area with lots of opportunities.

The swiss law is changed recently for foreigners and it will be very difficult to buy in the near futur.Have you already looked at the propertyprices in Verbier the last 4 years ?The price is doubled. I think it was a good investment when you have bought an apartment or chalet in 2003.

What’s your opion about this statements Carolchi

Hi Loup,

Sorry to hear you've had a 'mare in Les Collons. Re Commune taxes, we went to see our local bank manager and he explained that our purchase had fallen between two fiscals and that we would indeed be getting a letter from them in due course - and now will be paying for 2007/8 together. As we understand it, taxes are based on a combination of the purchase price, and likely annual rental income. Will let you know in due course!

As far as your exterior decoration quote goes, if that's for the total sanding down, prep and re-staining - £4k sounds huge but is probably an OK price considering Swiss tradesmen rates. If you know they've done good work elsewhere, they would be a good choice. My instinct would be not to skimp on the exterior work as the elements conspire to strip wood bare in no time at all in the mountains.

The experiences you've had using agencies for your rentals are unfortunately quite common - poor contact with clients and generally poor service for a high % of your rental income. Having seen many blogs to this end we asked our sharp estate to recommend a local woman who'd do the key-handovers, bed prep, laundry (in our communal basement laundry room for CH2 per wash load as opposed to the monopolistic local laundry who charge £3 to wash and iron a tea towel & £10 for one duvet cover!!), cleaning and inventory checks - all for CH20 per hour. We were very fortunate to find someone to help us who speaks good English and is a star when it comes to welcoming our guests - she even turned out at 10pm on Christmas Day night to let one group in!

In response to the recent posts about the lift systems malarkey - am keeping a weather eye on the current wranglings and politics surrounding the lift system ownership/power struggle. Doubtless this will run and run but at the end of the day the Swiss love money and this is All About The Money. Good to see the familiar names of Fournier & Bornet et al are up to their necks in this civil lift battle, though I'm reassured that their adoration of the Coin won't allow the variously interested parties to risk pissing off the winter ski trade - that would be the most egregious case of cutting their noses off to spite their faces. Just can't see it happening.

As for innocent foreigners being taken to the cleaners financially by the venal Swiss - well, that's as maybe. I think there's a trade off. I saw more litter around my car when I returned to London yesterday than I see in a year in Haute Nendaz. I can leave our door unlocked without fear. I can walk around at night without having to be accompanied by my 6'4'' partner. I pay less for food & booze than I do in London. The air is far cleaner and given the choice of looking at the latest absurd St Georges Thames-side development or the divine views round the 4 Valleys - no contest. Sure - it's a game, but as long as one goes into owning a property in the Valais with eyes open and a healthy dose of optimistic scepticism - in my humble opinion it's worth it. After all, the tax paying/property owner is being screwed by the UK government every single day here - and all at 5m above sea level!!

A bientot,
Rosied

Have to agree whole heartedly with Rosied I'm pleased to say. Just took over our new chalet in La Tzoumaz and we've met with little but kindness and good will from most Swiss so far. I'll also give an idea of local taxes when we get them, so far I've little idea and don't really care to be honest. Blessings duly counted! We've also got a couple of good local contacts and an informal network of fellow chalet owners on a bit of a self help basis so we'll see how that goes for a year or two. We also had our own washing machine installed, worth every penny, and it dries overnight with the underfloor heating. Plus fantastic snow so far........still trying to figure out the downside to this chalet business!

Best wishes,

Ruddsyboy

Hi,

Just to let you know that we've decided to sell up. Something has to give financially and so the chalet's it.

One of the Notary's has said that we should be able to sort the 5 yaaer thing as long as we sell the chalet for what we paid for it.

Very sad.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in buying a 3 bed chalet near Les Collons let us know!

HI where is your chalet that you are selling, i might know someone that would be interested if you havnt already sold it. Its a shame you have to let it go

quote:

Originally posted by Loup:
Hi,

Just to let you know that we've decided to sell up. Something has to give financially and so the chalet's it.

One of the Notary's has said that we should be able to sort the 5 yaaer thing as long as we sell the chalet for what we paid for it.

Very sad.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in buying a 3 bed chalet near Les Collons let us know!

HI Rosie D I would be interested in knowing the details of the girl that you use for cleaning etc in your chalet ( is she in Les collons?) If you wouldnt mind passing me her email address or telephone number i would be very grateful - thanks

quote:

Originally posted by rosied:
Hi Loup,

Sorry to hear you've had a 'mare in Les Collons. Re Commune taxes, we went to see our local bank manager and he explained that our purchase had fallen between two fiscals and that we would indeed be getting a letter from them in due course - and now will be paying for 2007/8 together. As we understand it, taxes are based on a combination of the purchase price, and likely annual rental income. Will let you know in due course!

As far as your exterior decoration quote goes, if that's for the total sanding down, prep and re-staining - £4k sounds huge but is probably an OK price considering Swiss tradesmen rates. If you know they've done good work elsewhere, they would be a good choice. My instinct would be not to skimp on the exterior work as the elements conspire to strip wood bare in no time at all in the mountains.

The experiences you've had using agencies for your rentals are unfortunately quite common - poor contact with clients and generally poor service for a high % of your rental income. Having seen many blogs to this end we asked our sharp estate to recommend a local woman who'd do the key-handovers, bed prep, laundry (in our communal basement laundry room for CH2 per wash load as opposed to the monopolistic local laundry who charge £3 to wash and iron a tea towel & £10 for one duvet cover!!), cleaning and inventory checks - all for CH20 per hour. We were very fortunate to find someone to help us who speaks good English and is a star when it comes to welcoming our guests - she even turned out at 10pm on Christmas Day night to let one group in!

In response to the recent posts about the lift systems malarkey - am keeping a weather eye on the current wranglings and politics surrounding the lift system ownership/power struggle. Doubtless this will run and run but at the end of the day the Swiss love money and this is All About The Money. Good to see the familiar names of Fournier & Bornet et al are up to their necks in this civil lift battle, though I'm reassured that their adoration of the Coin won't allow the variously interested parties to risk pissing off the winter ski trade - that would be the most egregious case of cutting their noses off to spite their faces. Just can't see it happening.

As for innocent foreigners being taken to the cleaners financially by the venal Swiss - well, that's as maybe. I think there's a trade off. I saw more litter around my car when I returned to London yesterday than I see in a year in Haute Nendaz. I can leave our door unlocked without fear. I can walk around at night without having to be accompanied by my 6'4'' partner. I pay less for food & booze than I do in London. The air is far cleaner and given the choice of looking at the latest absurd St Georges Thames-side development or the divine views round the 4 Valleys - no contest. Sure - it's a game, but as long as one goes into owning a property in the Valais with eyes open and a healthy dose of optimistic scepticism - in my humble opinion it's worth it. After all, the tax paying/property owner is being screwed by the UK government every single day here - and all at 5m above sea level!!

A bientot,
Rosied

Hello All,

Spent a while reading through this enormous and really useful thread.

We currently live in Zurich and have a B permit and are thinking of buying a chalet in one of the smaller villages in the 4 Vallees. We have been looking around the Graubunden area for a while and the properties seem more reasonable in Valais.

I suppose my questions are:

- best villages to look at (Easter hols are beckoning)
- re-sale or new (Swiss seem to load the new prices and not be so keen on older properties)
- possibility of running catered chalet at some stage in the future. My husband is losing it with the corporate ladder stuff..
- What are local schools like..my kids are at Intl School here.

Thanks
Ashley

HELP!! Please,can someone offer us advice!!!!

The Notary is still saying we can't sell even though we have offered to sell for what we bought it for and have a letter from our accountant saying that we are in financial difficulties.

We are desperate, the stress of this is making me ill. We have to sell. Does anyone know a way or know anyone that can help us??

Hi Loup, when we bought our chalet in les collons, we were told we could sell it as long as we bought another property in switzerland. Could you downsize, say to an appartment, for alot less money and release your capital that way ? Good luck

HI

If anyone has any info/experience on the matter.. What is the average cost of having a normal 3-4 bed chalet built? Cost per m2 say in the 4 valley area..