I'm about to reserve a 3 bed duplex apt. in the Mechi Chal lodge being developed by Someplace else. I understand that rentals cover about 4 months a yr max in these areas and I will be happy if it covers the mortgage - even better if it gives me a bank rate of return on my investment. I do plan to use the apt. myself several times a year but I would like to sell it in about 5yrs time when we outgrow the intermediate slopes. I am a bit concerned about oversupply in light of other postings/news articles about the Black sea coast.
Has anyone else bought in this area or had any thoughts/info. on the Pamporovo region and the additional investment in the area b/c Perelik project and prospects for reselling a 3 bed ski apt.?
Originally posted by Dvushka: I'm about to reserve a 3 bed duplex apt. in the Mechi Chal lodge being developed by Someplace else. I understand that rentals cover about 4 months a yr max in these areas and I will be happy if it covers the mortgage - even better if it gives me a bank rate of return on my investment. I do plan to use the apt. myself several times a year but I would like to sell it in about 5yrs time when we outgrow the intermediate slopes. I am a bit concerned about oversupply in light of other postings/news articles about the Black sea coast.
Has anyone else bought in this area or had any thoughts/info. on the Pamporovo region and the additional investment in the area b/c Perelik project and prospects for reselling a 3 bed ski apt.?
They had about 2 weeks of good skiing this year. In 5-10 years there might be no snow at all at Pamporovo which is very low. Pamporovo is quite our of the way for Summer tourists .
Why don't you buy a smaller apt. in Slovenia or higher altitudes in Alps? Or even Colorado which is guaranteed to have snow...
Dvushka, dont be drawn into Bulgaria, market is over saturated & you will def struggle to sell let alone make some profit. Ask anyone they will tell you the same, for investment look at emerging countries.
- Pinstripe Ostrich farming ('96) - Boo.com shares ('00) - Bulgarian real estate ('07)
If you fancy a few weeks skiing per year in Bulgaria why don't you just rent in one of the many available properties there....I hear there's cronic oversupply and rentals are rock bottom.
I'd be lucky to get a tired studio in one of the French/Swiss ski resorts for the price of a new build 3 bed in Bulgaria. Are prospects for reselling that bad in the ski resorts? Arent the Black Sea coast and ski regions separate markets? Does anyone have any suggestions for specific ski locales elsewhere in Europe that will hold value and aren't too expensive (ie. where in Slovenia or other "emerging countries"?)
Originally posted by Dvushka: I'd be lucky to get a tired studio in one of the French/Swiss ski resorts for the price of a new build 3 bed in Bulgaria. Are prospects for reselling that bad in the ski resorts? Arent the Black Sea coast and ski regions separate markets? Does anyone have any suggestions for specific ski locales elsewhere in Europe that will hold value and aren't too expensive (ie. where in Slovenia or other "emerging countries"?)
Black Sea was way over saturated last year, Pamporovo/Bansko are way over saturated this year. The reselling is as bad as it gets, there are thousands and thousands new apt. on the pipeline.
Slovenia without qeustion. The second resort I here is the place to invest as the main one (begins with K) has already inflated.
A lot of us on this forum have invested in Morocco.
Did you know the worlds biggest developer (Emaar) is building luxury ski resorts in Morocco? I believe they will have snow much of the year due to high altitude. You will see some fairly substantial ski offerings on Emaars website (C4 wont let me post a link - they are not grown up about such things).
Have you looked at Montenegro ? There are also skiing areas and although the coast has now become relatively expensive, a little inland is still relatively cheap and there is good skiing. You might be able to combine somewhere where you can enjoy both the beach and skiing.
Originally posted by Thorr: Slovenia without qeustion. The second resort I here is the place to invest as the main one (begins with K) has already inflated.
A lot of us on this forum have invested in Morocco.
Did you know the worlds biggest developer (Emaar) is building luxury ski resorts in Morocco? I believe they will have snow much of the year due to high altitude. You will see some fairly substantial ski offerings on Emaars website (C4 wont let me post a link - they are not grown up about such things).
Would you ski in Morocco on a regular basis?? I wonder how many people would prefer Morocco to Swizerland...
Over easter I did check out Montenegro (love the scenery) but the lack of mortgages (Hypo bank only just started to offer them but no one could tell me of anyone who had actually been approved) and the poor infrastructure in/to the ski areas of Kolasin/Durmitor put us off for now. Plus the prices were a bit high for what they were asking (although not the ridiculous prices you find in the Kotor area). Lack of mortgages in Slovenia is also a big problem - Bovec looks good though - and prices are a bit higher there as well. Not sure about Morocco. I heard it was more for advanced skiers plus I'm not sure about the surrounding area - I don't think I'd want to be in an area where I have to stay on the resort all the time. We're trying to find a ski property that would be ski in/out w/o having to pile kids into a car for half an hour to get to the slopes. In the summer we would use the property for several weeks so rentals during that time arent important. I originally looked at the Pamporovo area b/c of the area and investments - after the highway to Greece is updated it'll be a little over an hour to the coast for daytrips. I haven't been able to find a ski property elsewhere of this (perceived) quality and price/sqm but I'm still looking. Of the established resort areas, Austria seems to be the best value for money but that's in small resorts which are more liable to close if there's a low snow year. Has anyone gone skiing in the Bulgarian resorts and/or Slovenia or Slovakia - how do they compare?
It's now easier than ever to travel or settle in Bulgaria. For example you can buy a house in Bulgaria and live in UK. And eventually every Friday evening take the 10 pounds low cost plane, ski for 2 days and then return back on Sunday evening.
And in my opinion life's better even in the most poor countries IN EU compared to the richest OUT of the union
Originally posted by Trifonov: Well, reader07, to answer you in brief:
It's now easier than ever to travel or settle in Bulgaria. For example you can buy a house in Bulgaria and live in UK. And eventually every Friday evening take the 10 pounds low cost plane, ski for 2 days and then return back on Sunday evening.
And in my opinion life's better even in the most poor countries IN EU compared to the richest OUT of the union
Yeah sure, 10 pounds. To fly to a place 3 hours away from the ski lift. And for the 2 weeks of skiing Bulgaria offers every year. Why not renting the 1000s of empty apartments for that period of time? Do squatters in BUlgaria need a larger choice of properties?
Originally posted by reader07: They had about 2 weeks of good skiing this year. In 5-10 years there might be no snow at all at Pamporovo which is very low. Pamporovo is quite our of the way for Summer tourists
My completely value judgement is to agree with this (having spent a lot of time in bulgaria in the past, but have not been back for a while).
Pamporovo was nice enough but a bit passe even then with Bansko et al being more the "coming" thing.
I doubt Pamporovo is *ever* going to be appealing enough for most skiers.
Originally posted by Dvushka: I'd be lucky to get a tired studio in one of the French/Swiss ski resorts for the price of a new build 3 bed in Bulgaria.
That is probably true in price terms.
But remember that many (often very affluent) people will probably always want to go to those "tired" French or Swiss resorts for a variety of reasons (cachet, language, convenience of location, apres ski, great ski runs etc).
10% flat tax...i'd rather pay 40% tax on a profit than pay none in Bulgaria because i lost money in the over hyped over inflated bubble that exists in Bulgaria!!!
The original quesion was about alternatives to Pampovoro, and in answer I'd say that I'd need convincing that it is good either (a) as a pure investment or (b) as a private purchase or (c) a mixed private+rental purchase.
The £/m2 is irrelevant if it's (a) pure investment, as you're solely interested in the (realisable) %increase (i.e. what you can really sell it on for, not just a developer's claim about potential). On this basis, as I said, I'm unconvinced - I think that you'd do better putting your money elsewhere.
For (b) or (c) I have various objections. The first is the relatively low altitude that makes for a short ski season. The second is that the ski areas are relatively small compared to Alpine resorts. The third is the shorter transit time and huge choice of carriers (e.g BA, easyJet, bmi, Swiss etc. from Luton, Manchester, Gatwick, Southampton to Geneva, Zurich ..) Forth is that you can drive to the Alps but not (realistically) to the Balkans.
It's also the case that there's a lot of misinformation about the actual £/m2 in the Alps. Places like Verbier and Courcheval are x3-x4 times more £/m2 than lesser-known resorts in the same ski areas.
Personally, I'd rather have a 1-bed open-plan apartment in the Alps for £60K than a 3-bed place in the Balkans for the same. I can drive there, have a wide choice of competing airlines, a 1-hr flight, a 1500M base skiing up to 3500m, a long ski season, and rental market in Germany and Benelux who can drive there in 6 hours or less.
As you may know I have bought properties here and there and of late have been looking for another investment.
Ski property is on my shortlist.
So far I have the following options and wondered what input you might offer to me;
1) FINLAND, £60000 34m2 studio in well catered family resort. £30000 on Finnish mortgage.
CONS = very cold DEC - MAR, short days in deep winter
PROS = reports these resorts are getting busier as people are prefering to pre - book here as its snow sure In light of global warming - a good bet going forward Ski until well into June Non status mortgage virtually guaranteed - none of the French system hassles Rental property is currently over subscribed Right in amongst the slopes
2) UKRAINE - 37m2 studio for £31000, only £11000 over next 2 1/2 years. 800m from ski lift.
PROS - cheap, stunning views as one of the first developments here so developer had the pick of locations. Benefit from growing and vast Russian / former USSR markets Rent yield predicted - 12% Only £11000 at risk until completion.
CONS - a new and risky market? V cold in winter. Not nearly as snow sure as Finland. An underdevloped infrastructure - I wouldnt fancy a stay in hospital there.
3) France - £65000 24m2 new studio in an area that is a little unattractive (concrete blocks) but undergoing transformation (apparantly)
CONS - a popular established market. Safe and steady.
PROS - all the 'easy money' has gone. Bloody small. Mass competition - no?
Originally posted by msej449: It's also the case that there's a lot of misinformation about the actual £/m2 in the Alps. Places like Verbier and Courcheval are x3-x4 times more £/m2 than lesser-known resorts in the same ski areas.
Personally, I'd rather have a 1-bed open-plan apartment in the Alps for £60K than a 3-bed place in the Balkans for the same. I can drive there, have a wide choice of competing airlines, a 1-hr flight, a 1500M base skiing up to 3500m, a long ski season, and rental market in Germany and Benelux who can drive there in 6 hours or less.
Yes I agree with this, as someone who lives in Germany and skis in Switzerland.
I go to one of the "upmarket" Swiss resorts (but not *that* expensive if you are used to UK prices). I too would choose a tiny place there ahead of Bulgaria.
2) UKRAINE - 37m2 studio for £31000, only £11000 over next 2 1/2 years. 800m from ski lift.
PROS - cheap, stunning views as one of the first developments here so developer had the pick of locations. Benefit from growing and vast Russian / former USSR markets Rent yield predicted - 12% Only £11000 at risk until completion.
CONS - a new and risky market?
Blimey, is that "new" as in non-existent . Ukraine is *not* a ski destination.
And did you see the pics of the "infrastructure" used on TV when Ukraine won the Euro 2012 bid (or are you thinking that would be a catalyst for growth)?
I would think hard about where the income is going to come from. That "growing" former USSR market heads West for ski-ing if it can (as anyone who went to France, Switzerland or Austria this year can tell you). I can't see tons of Westerners suddenly heading there .
The price also does not sound *that* great to me. Not that different from prices where I live, which is one of the most prosperous parts of Europe. Cheap does not always equal good investment (as you know of course).
Of the three, I would say France. Ukraine sounds like a "punt" to me.
2) UKRAINE - 37m2 studio for £31000, only £11000 over next 2 1/2 years. 800m from ski lift.
PROS - cheap, stunning views as one of the first developments here so developer had the pick of locations. Benefit from growing and vast Russian / former USSR markets Rent yield predicted - 12% Only £11000 at risk until completion.
