I am thinking of buying a ski aprtmentSki Apartment in Serre Chevalier, Southern Alps, France. It is an old mill which is being converted into apartments. The prices are around €247,000 for a two bedroom apartment that can sleep up to 6. Does anybody think this is good or bad value for this area?
I am beginning to think that France is a good investment, due to the changes going on in the property market there due to the new President. What are other peoples views on this matter. All comments appreciated.
One measure worth using for comparison is £/m2. The number of bedrooms or 'sleeps x' can be misleading. In Switzerland, this varies from about £2,000/m2 for an older property, through £3,500/m2 in one of the newer resorts, to £4,500/m2 in Verberir, for apartments (chalet pricing tends to be much higher). Generally, French ski properties tend to pack-in more bedrooms (however small) for the same floor area (compared to Switzerland). Plus I've also found French walls to be a lot thinner. Finally, the above £/m2 prices include underground parking - you may have to pay £10K+ for this in some places (if you can get it at all).
Northman: Taking a quick look at the URL I have a couple of commments. First, it's going to be expensive - anything from Erna Low, Chesterton, Overseas Homesearch, Savills, InvestorsinProperty etc. always tends to be at the top end of the market. Nothing wrong with them as such, but I'd recommend you look at the local immobiliers as well to get an idea of alternatives. Second, I note there's no information on pricing and floor size, which suggests again that it's going to be at the upper end of the market. Finally, be careful about any leasing offers and French 'Leaseback' in particular. again, nothing wrong as such, but always compare it to conventional financing and steer clear if all they want to do is lock you into a 10-Year lease.
Northman: I had a quick look at some stuff on sale in Serre Chevalier. It ranged between £2,680/m2 and a hefty £4,532/m2, with latter not including parking. It also confirmed my thoughts that while some places seen to be well-priced for the accommodation (in terms of rooms), when you look at the m2 you find that the floor area is about 2/3rds of what you'd expect. And not that some m2 include the storage 'cave' as well, while others seem not to say a lot about parking ...
A family member has a 2 bed apartment in Serre Chevalier, paid £87K about 4 years ago, I've no idea what it's worth now but it is in a purpose built block, not a converted olde worlde pile. However, one thing I would say is that Serre is a lot further south for self drivers from UK if considering rental income. And the rental return has been disappointing but that could be because the former (french) letting agent tended to prefer to let units owned by local folk first and not those owned by ex-pats.
Good luck but I suspect there is better value in France and (biased here) in Switzerland and they're less of a hike from UK by road anyway.
I've stayed in Serre and you should bear in mind that it's very strung-out. As with any resort, only a subset of places are within walking distance of lifts and restaurants etc. Many of the apartments are a fair walk from a bus stop and the bus routes can be circuitious. Oddly, in poorer snow, some of the connecting runs at the top of the area are closed, so you have to keep going to the base and then up to traverse the whole ski area. That said, it's north-facing so although it can be icy, it does keep the snow better than other resorts. I've been in the summmer as well, and found it more attractive for walking and cycling than a lot of other places - it seems more 'open'.
Giving this a lot of thought, I am now more inclined to look at places in Switzerland. It just seems very expensive for what you get (square meterage etc).
Dave know of any good developments going in Switzerland. I've been eyeing a few up over the weekend. I'll probably post my findings on one of the other discussions.
Haute Nendaz looks interesting with places for around £100,000. I see you mentioned it was worth going out there (Dave) in one of your other posts form a few months ago, as the British developers do not have a great choice. Is there a lot of development going on there at the moment and many estate agents to look talk to? The development I have been looking at is being marketed by Alpine Homes, know any good or bad points about them?
Our requirements were: French-speaking; for personal use; only wanted a basic return on investment; reasonably near to a major airport; feasible to drive to from the UK; 1500M or higher; substantial ski area; under £200K. You need to sort out a similar list for yourselves, since everyone has a different set of preferences.
The main issue is, of course, the Foreign Owner's license. This wasn't a problem when we bought in 2003, but it is now, I think. The main way around this seems to be either (a) buy off an existing foreigner or (b) buy off-plan where the developer already has a batch of licences in the system. Bear in mind that the latter have a vested interest in steering you away from the former by implying there isn't much on the market.
Aside from this, here's my run-down of the Valaisian resorts - with disclaimer that I'm not a professional agent.
There are some VERY exspensive resorts like Verbier, Crans-Montana and Zermatt. In the next category are places like Villars, Leysin, Champery and Lukerbad, and increasingly, Haute Nendaz. And then there are lesser-known locations like Veysonnaz, Ovronnaz, Les Collons, Bruson, St.Luc Chadolin and Morgins. Basically, this is all reflected in their CHF/m2 costs. Chalets are always disproportionately more expensive per m2 than equivalent apartments.
If skiing is close to the top of your list, then the 4 Valleys (La Tzoumaz, Verbier, Nendaz, Veysonnaz, Les Collons) and the Portes du Soleil (Champery, Morgins) are each about as big as you'll get ouside the Trois Valees. But be aware that Nendaz and Veysonnaz are more isolated than they may appear - it's fairly time-consuming to get to Verbier from both of them, particularly Nendaz.
Is summer activities (walking, MTB) are your thing, then most places are good, but look at the summer lift period. This ranges from June-September in Verbier, through July-August in La Tzoumaz to not at all in some places. This makes a big difference to the extent to which you can enjoy a place in the summer. Lukerbad has some major walking routes over the Bernerese Oberland, and Verbier is on the Haute Route walk which connects Mt.Blanc with the Matterhorn
If spas are your thing then note that the Bains de Saillon are in the valley near Riddes, and that Ovronnaz and Lukerbad are very attractive spa towns.
If exclusivity and style are important to you, then Villars is very chic, like Crans and of course, the more northerly Zermatt.
It's debatable whether you can call Verbier exclusive - some people would dub it as an unfortunate mix of English public-school yahoos, expatriate Genovoise American diplomats and arriviste Russian Mafia (which would be rather unkind, as it's more egalitarian than it's given credit for, to my mind).
Be careful about claims of "1-1/2 hours from Geneva" most places are at least 2 hours. However, the whole area is as easy to reach from Calais by car as the Frnech Alps - typically 8-9 hours of driving time. And car hire is cheaper in Switzerland than France.
Swiss buildings generally provide a better quality of construction than France, and at less £/m2. In apartment blocks, the Swiss also seem to go in for central hot water and heating, which is preferable to the French habit of a small immersion heater and electric wall heaters.
I'm rather a sceptic about anything that's advertised or sold in the UK. On average, the prices always seem to be inflated. But all you have to do is to surf all the local immobiliers websites anyway, to get a comparison. I would never pay a premium just because it's a UK company. Often, they're just middlemen taking their extra cut. And always bear in mind they have a vested interest in selling their off-plan scheme, rather than advising you. Obvious, but it's clever how subtly their sales material slides into the "and we have just the sort of place you're looking for available in ....".
Excellent website Dave. Much more use than a lot of commercial ones out there.
I was under the impression that you did not have to have a permit, but that restricted you to a maximum of 180 days in the country. Does it also stop you being able to re-sell?
I think I will have a trip out there either next month or November. Do you know what days the agents are open in Switzerland (not Sat or Sun I presume).
I understand why you think it can be preferable to buy an existing property, but one thing with a new build is you are getting all the latest building methods incorporated. I think I will go out there and investigate both options.
What is the kitchen like in your apartment? Even the new builds seem to have a small kitchenett, and seem to often lack an oven. I would think an oven essential.
Hi Northman, I'm a buyer at Pracondu 2 in Nendaz, which I think is the development marketed by Alpine Homes/Savills. There's a fair number of posts on the "Buying a Swiss chalet as a business" forum. I've been out and seen it and its in an excellent location close to telecabine. The big problem you should ask Alpine Homes about is the situation with Transmontagne. As you know Pracondu is a leaseback scheme, but without the problems of French leasebacks. When the lease ends, you really do get your property back! The leaseback company is called Alpvision, initially trumpeted as one and the same as Transmontagne - the huge French ski lift company which owns the Dubai snow dome and has fingers in snow pies around the world. But in July Transmontagne went into receivership. The word is that Alpvision is ringfenced, standalone and unaffected, backed by the local Canton etc etc. But you should ask the questions and satisfy yourself IMHO. There is a dedicated Pracondu blog on google groups which has a lot more information from owners in the first phase as well as the buyers in the second phase. If you make a reservation, you should definitely join - its been invaluable.
