Hi everyone.

I am thinking of investing in some property in Montenegro with a company called Property Frontiers. Has anybody out there had any dealings with this company, (good or bad).

This is the first time I have ventured into the overseas property market, and it seems to me that you have to be prepared to take a 'leap of faith' as regards to trusting these companies with your hard earned cash!

Any information welcomed.

You have a pm

Sorry, no you don't - I can't work out how to pm on this forum.

I've been in touch with several people who like me bought through Property Frontiers. You could say their after sales service is not brilliant. Let me know how I can get in touch privately and I'll tell you our stories.

Nothman, Property Frontiers were in touch with me a few months ago with regards a development of apartments with views onto Kotor Bay. They were pushy and I didn't get along with them over the phone. They also wanted a fee for the property that interested me that amounted to 10% of purchase price - rather high I'm sure you will agree.

Their webise is out of date too. Of the half dozen or so opportunities round the world they sent me details of, not one was on their website.

That said, they aren't the worst I've encountered.

Soup Dragon,

Thanks for the response.

These are the apartments I am thinking of buying into. They tell me thay have managed to secure further planning permission to the rear of the original development, and they are asking for deposits (£2000-refundable) to get onto the waiting list. When the next phase is released I will have to pay 30% on signing contracts (minus the £2000), 30% on completion of foundations, 30% on completion of walls and 10% on final completion. As you say, it seems quite high.

Still the first phase sold out quite quickly and they already have a lot of people on the waiting list for this next phase.

The main problem I have foud in Montenegro is the lack of choice with developments, as there are so few of them. This is probably a good thing with regards to investment, but it only gives you a handfull of developers to choose from, and I have no idea if they are reputable or not. I basically want to know that they are not going to run off with my money!

Regards,

Nortman.

fws,

You can reach me on this address, mcanchr@yahoo.co.uk

I'll send you my usual address through yahoo, but I don't want to post it hear.

Thanks.

I share your concerns Northmanand. If I were to invest I'd want to become more comfortable with who the developers are. As you say, 1st phase did sell very quickly and it does seem like a good time to buy into Montenegro.

Think I read somewhere, and I may have this wrong, that if you were to drive along their Riviera you would see a fair bit of construction work. Think I read that earlier this year when I was turning my attention to Morocco. Afraid I don't have any links to other sites with property for sale.

So Soup Dragon,

Have you invested in any other countries, or are you a first timer. I have also paid Morocco some attention, but I think there is more risk there as to if some of the newer beach resorts will hit it off.

I'll keep you posted if I do decide to invest in Montenegro.

I'm purchasing off plan in Saidia. That will be my first property abroad. I don't want to stretch my finances too far, so if I do acquire something else it'll be small and cheap.

Do you plan to visit Montenegro? It sounds like a terrific country for a driving holiday. Imagine only a matter of time till the budget airlines start servicing it.

Hi Northman,
Just to let you know Property Frontiers Montenegro investment caught our eye too. We couldn't find anyone who had any stories about them - good or bad - at the time so we went ahead a put down the £2,000 reservation fee. We had confirmation back we were on the "list" in early June but despite a few 'phone calls & e-mails we have yet to receive any concrete info regarding the launch of the project. We're just starting to wonder whether to ask for our money back or not. Hope it's not too cheeky to ask but we'd be very interested to hear from either Soup Dragon or fws if they've had any personal dealings with Property Frontiers.
Sorry but I'm new on these forum lark so I don't know how to "pm" (personally mail ?) someone.
We still think Montenegro is worth an investment but it's a case of who to buy with isn't it.
Anybody had any dealings with "Ready 2 Invest" ? I believe they had something on offer in Montenegro but I'm not sure.

Hi Kaz.

New to the forum scene too! Came on it looking to glean some information!

I take it you have put down your £2000 pounds in order to be on the waiting list, as the first phase had already been sold out.

I have been talking to a guy from PF yesterday. (Do no want to mention names on here as he may surf the site himself). He told me the first phase was being released today (Friday), having already been sold out, and it would be a couple of month's before the second phase was released. They are still waiting to get final planning permission for the second phase!

I must admit that I am tempted to with this development, but also a litle aprehensive, as it is my first time in investing abroad. I am sure it will come off and get built, and Montenegro has tunns of stuff going for it, which makes the risk more worthwhile, in my opinion.

Do you know what type of property you are after (1, 2 bed or studio)? Have you invested in anything overseas before?

You can PM me on the address given above if you have any further queries, or you just want to keep in touch regarding this development. I'll let yop know if I put down my deposit as well.

Regards,

Northman.

P.S. FWS, sorry for not replying to your e-mail (much apreciated). Thanks for the information which I am still thinking about.

Kaz,

Also meant to ask, have you been out there to view the 'potential development?'

If, I put down the deposit, I am thinking of a trip over there in the Autumn!

Hi Northman,
Just about to logoff for the night & noticed you'd replied !
Now you mention it, I'm not sure what type of list we're actually on (makes us sound quite careless doesn't it !)
We understood we were about halfway down a list of people who had put their names down for about 140 units. First come, first served sort of thing. We thought we were assured of something but realised we wouldn't have first pick of individual apartments.
Not sure whether it was first or second phase though.
We plumped for the middle option and asked for a top-floor 1 bed apartment. No we haven't been out there yet.
Also, no we haven't bought anywhere abroad before but we have a couple of Buy 2 Lets in the North East and are looking to branch out abroad.
It's just very confusing knowing what to go for. We don't want to put all our eggs in one basket and are also looking at Bulgaria, possibly the Punta Perla thing in the Carribean, maybe Cape Verde and maybe Morocco.
(I keep loggin onto this forum and buying the monthly magazines to see what's coming up next !)

Would love to hear you what info you have regarding this Kotor development as I'm very interested in investing

Please be sure you read the contract carefully before you part with anymore money.What PF represnetative tell you is quite different to the contract. Basically you have 2 choices with the apartment, either you use it as a single family home or lease it back to PF who will rent it out. Once you have signed the contract you are at their mercy because rental/lease contract will not be issueed untill much later by that time most of the installment would have been paid off. So if they want to take say 50% of the rent, then you either accept it or you have the choice to live in it yourself. As part of mangement fees you will pay for the maintenance as well as water and electricity and equipment for the pool and other facilities, but another clause somewhere else tells you that membership for the facilities including the swimming pool is not included in the management fees. There are a lot of other issues as well. So read the contract very carefully.

Hi everyone,

I'm new to investing in europe too, as well as to this forum.

I too am interested in this Property Frontiers development. Does anyone have any further updates?

Has anyone here had any experience with the first phase of the develpoment or Property Frontiers in general that they would be willing to share with me?

I was told that Phase 2 may be sold to a single investor, and that Phase 3 will probably be released around Feb 2007.

Was also talking to another Montenegro based company that has another development releasing either Dec or Jan - would be happy to share details through PM. They mentioned that there have been loads of applications submitted for approval/have been approved. So while there may not be too many to choose from right now there will be significant numbers soon.

As for the contracts, I have read them and they seem rather one-sided. Tinat, did you get them checked out by a solicitor?

Hi drewja

When I tried Emailing you the above address wasn't being accepted as a valid address (could just be Outlook playing up at my end.)

I didn't invest in Montenegro. I received information on phase 1 of development near Kotor that Property Frontiers were promoting. I don't have any more information I can give you on PF over and above that which I have posted in the thread. I found them pushy and I wasn't happy with the commission they were receiving. Also, I don't want to part with more than 40% of price during development phase.

I'd be interested to receive any documentation you have on the other development and get your thoughts on it - but do not want to post my Email address in a thread. Is address above definitely correct address for you?

quote:

Originally posted by The Soup Dragon:
I don't want to part with more than 40% of price during development phase.

Same reason I didnt go for it, plus the contract was heavily weighted in the developers interest. For example flipping was pretty much a no no.

Not really one for us pure investors, but as a holiday home I wouldnt kick it out bed!

It could well be a very good investment in the medium term, but lack of exit strategy coupled with high costs during the build make this undesirable.

drewja mentioned there will be a few more developments coming on the market soon. Hopefully one or two will be by bigger developers with less required up front, flipping option and reasonable prices. Normally I'd be wanting build period to be long, but think I would forego that if all the other ingredients were right.

Aftersales service from PF is virtually non-existent. Had a bad experience in Dubai with them. Check everything is watertight and expect to do most things yourself.

My friend gave me the contract to read and I passed it on to a solicitor friend who looked at it and basically told me he will never sign such a onesided contract and dodgy.No work so ever has started there and agents in Montenegro think it doesn't have planning permission yet.

Dear All,

I am Will Freeman, Chief Operating Officer of Property Frontiers and I would like respond to some of the points raised on this forum. There have been comments on this forum and the blog of Dream Property Montenegro. I hope to answer both sets of questions here. (I have also posted this response on the other thread concerning Property Frontiers on this Forum)

I am sorry and concerned to hear that people have been experiencing problems with our service and our project in Montenegro particularly. I would like to answer each of the concerns in order, but firstly would like to encourage any one with a problem, complaint or concern about us to contact me directly. My contact details are on the bottom of this entry. If you do not receive a satisfactory answer or resolution, you do have the option to make a complaint directly to the AIPP (association of International Property Professionals) of which we are founding members.

1. Some concerns have been raised, apparently through local agents, that the Peninsula Development in Montenegro does not have planning consent. I can assure you that we have all the necessary land ownership, planning permissions and company documents are in place. Any lawyer that operates in Montenegro can check these as they are all registered with the land registry office. Building is set to commence in the 1st quarter of next year and we have already started to clear land for detailed survey. If anyone would like to see a copy of the land title deeds or planning permission, please contact me and I will email or post you a copy.
2. With regards to location, our development is in Krasici which is on the Lusticia Peninsula and is indeed facing Boko Kotor (or “Kotor Bay”) and not the open sea. With regards to the views, the development will look over Tivat bay, the new marinas; both St Marko Island and Perast will be visible in the distance. One contributor did accurately mention that an early version of the brochure included some incorrect views. We were made aware of this quickly and changed them some time ago.
3. In terms of rental yields, I agree that 12.5% is unrealistic and it is not something that we mention in our literature. If any of our sales staff were claiming this, please let me know who it was and they will be dealt with. We do expect the development to offer a higher yield than other properties in Montenegro as it is to be operated as a hotel resort with full rental management. Hotel returns are typically higher than those in residential buildings as room rates are higher and occupancy is higher because the apartments are marketed through travel agents and tour operators. Having said this, the yields are not guaranteed and nor are our staff encouraged to make exaggerated claims to clients. If such claims have been made by an individual then they will be severely dealt with.
4. With regards to service charges, this may be higher than the average development but this is due to the fact that it will be a large 5 star resort and will be one of the best in the area with additional facilities, such as spa and gyms, restaurants and swimming pools. The reason that we have not provided a lease contract is due to the fact that we are in the process of finalising the management company. It is however likely that the management company will be splitting revenues from the resort operations with owners of the apartments on a 50%:50% basis. This will be finalised as soon as a management company is confirmed. The suggestetion that owners need to pay additional membership fees to use the facilities is wrong. The clause on management fees does say that this fee does not include membership, however this, I believe, is simply to separate the two distinct rights. All owners will have full and free access to the facilities.
5. In regard to the contracts, we have had comments from different customers wishing to negotiate / change certain aspects. We have been entirely open to this. Any customers who did not like the contract and wanted to pull out of the deal were refunded in full. One contributor suggested that friends of theirs had not been refunded. I am certain this is inaccurate. The holding deposits for the project were fully refundable.
6. Another contributor mentioned that they tried to see the site on three occasions and were unable to. We are not aware of this internally and have received no complaint or comment from any customer. Property Frontiers Montenegro has an office with 9 staff, any of which will be happy to show customers (or other agents) around the site.
7. There has also been a suggestion that it was compulsory to use our lawyers. This is certainly a misunderstanding. We have negotiated discounted rates with a lawyer in Montenegro, but they are not our lawyers. Such action would represent a conflict of interest and therefore been unworkable in practice and under Montenegrin law. Some customers used our recommended lawyer and some did not. The choice of lawyer is entirely the customers.
8. Another customer mentioned an experience of poor after-sales service when they bought early this year. I fully accept that, in the past, our after sales service has not been to the standard we would have liked. However, over the last 6 months we have worked to build a good team and things are always improving. If people do not get the service they expect I would encourage them to contact me directly.


My belief is that forums such as this are an excellent way of holding companies to account for their failings and misgivings. However, it is also clear that these forums are abused by competitors looking to tarnish reputations. Some of the comments posted here and on the other blog mentioned are patently false. They are either the result of total misunderstanding or malicious rumour. Equally, some of the comments are entirely valid and we, as a company, would never seek to ignore or hide from any mistakes on our part. We are a fast growing company and we do not claim to get things right all of the time. However, our intentions are invariably good and we would never seek to mislead clients.

We are fully aware of the unethical behaviour of some companies in this industry. We would never behave in such a way. Property Frontiers is proud to be an ethical business and is here for the long term. If, as has been suggested above, any of our staff have behaved unethically or in a pushy manner, please tell us who they are and we will deal with them.

For any of you that have genuinely had a negative experience, I am very, very sorry. As I have outlined above, we are improving our after-sales and I hope I have answered the mis-understandings with Montenegro. The first phase of that project is completely sold out, and we are not aware of any unhappy customers. A small minority of customers did not proceed with their purchase for a variety of reasons (many personal and unconnected to the project); all of these have been refunded in full.

As I mentioned above, please respond to me with any questions, either though this blog or directly on the following details;

wfreeman@propertyfrontiers.com
01865 202700

We are a decent, honest company that is trying to offer good opportunities to our clients. If people have heard rumours that put this into question, please come and visit our head office in Oxford to learn more about us.

I look forward to receiving your questions and comments.

Kind regards

Will