a little bit more on denkmalshultz, when you have found the correct official to deal with . before any work submit 3 estimates for the work and wait for the reply. this will be yes or no to go ahead and how much if any grant you will get. Wait for the reply first. do the job and ask for the money back. simple
Hi, I have been reading all these German threads with great interest. It is not a country I am familiar with property wise, however I have a friend who is desperate to invest with me and will not invest in UK or Turkey where I normally invest and so has persuaded me to consider Germany. Looking for a pure BTL in possibly Leipzig or Dresden, someone mentioned 60k flats, any pointers would be really appreciated.
i know its hard work going through all these threads to find what you want but stick at it. i myself have invested in germany (old east) but not for buy to let as i think this can be a minefield esp if tennants are there already but as a long term investment. seek out manfred, vonreisa, jimandpaul, carol, vbland and others. good luck
Thanks Jim and Paul, It's a bit like learning a new language buying abroard, it takes a lot of effort and a lot of advice to make the right decisions. I am happy with a long term investment, but a little concerned over your doubts re BTL, are the laws heavilly stacked in the favour of the tenant in Germany?
in aword yes, you cant move them on and you cant increase the rent no matter how you improve the property. this is of course with exsisting tennants. best bet for btl is buy something empty and fill it with folk at your price. if you can thatis
Originally posted by Mr BC: Hi, I have been reading all these German threads with great interest. It is not a country I am familiar with property wise, however I have a friend who is desperate to invest with me and will not invest in UK or Turkey where I normally invest and so has persuaded me to consider Germany. Looking for a pure BTL in possibly Leipzig or Dresden, someone mentioned 60k flats, any pointers would be really appreciated.
Hi,
Leibzig rang a bell or two with me, having had a call from a German friend who invested into Leibzig some 9 years ago, a lot of German people did; the land was cheap to buy definately had grants to reburbish etc.
His feelings though were, NEVER do it again, the 'EASTIES' don't pay their rent, he has had sitting tenants, yet he bought where a university plus industry should have brought him tenants.
I also heard from my family in Germany, that many West German people especially pensioners are considering to live in what was East Germany, because it is cheaper.
I think do your homework carefully, there is a good tourism market, in Dresden you cannot fail; again it depends on what you want to do.
It is a different ballgame there,but fair in the long run, but the previous East Germany is still tricky. Good luck.
Germany as a place to live or to have a holiday home is unrivalled. The old eastern states in particular are cheap with an excellent infrastructure. Dresden is a wonderful place to holiday and live. I have a place just outside Dresden and would not wish to live anywhere else. As an out and out investment tool the picture is not quite so clear. What is clear is that growth should be steady and secure. Both cities seem to have turned a corner in their development and are attracting fairly well paid jobs in some hi-tech industries. There is an oversupply problem generally throughout the east. The Sachsen government is planning to demolish a couple of hundred thousand properties on the lower end of the scale. This should be a welcome boost to the local market ensuring only the better quality properties survive. Leipzig is an interesting, lively city whilst Dresden can be described as classy, cultural and beautiful. These cities are not the sum total however - this is a huge area with many beautiful smaller towns within driving distance of the two hubs. Cost of living is generally cheaper than the Uk. I deal with a company in Saxony which I cannot, for fear of being barred, tell you about here. They do advertize in a Place in the Sun ( a small ad toward the back of the mag) The name is the giveaway I guess. They specialize in Saxony/Thuringia/Saxony Anhalt and the northern coast (ALSO beautiful) Go to Ottakers and take a look at the DK book on Germany. It should wet your appetite to at least go over and take a look. There is a scheme which I think originated with the mayor of Gorlitz to bring interested German pensioners from the West to fill the vacant properties in his town. It has had some success as the first of these people are in situ - I'm pretty sure as they tell their less adventurous cronies back in their home towns about it this traffic will accelerate. BTW Dresden is an easy motorway journey to Berlin and other major German cities. Also regular flights Gatwick - Dresden and Stansted - Altenburg (Leipzig)Anything else you need to know just ask if I don't know the answer I know people who will.
Anyone know about these, seem a bit too cheap to be true;
Veteranenstrasse appartments, Mitte Berlin. Top central location, lovely building design right next to park in the Government district. £60k for a freehold studio - what's the catch?
berlinrepos are the agent, anyone had any dealings?
For pure investment(capital growth and rental return)is the concensus Dresdon over Leipzig? Do people think that Dresdon could work as a holiday let?
Another question is acquiring a mortgage, surprised that it can not be done more easily via a UK company. Is it fairly straight forward sorting it out in Germany?
Veering towards purchasing in Berlin now, just deciding on which district and 1 or 2 bed flat. The biggest stumbling block still is obtaining a german mortgage as a non resident, would be interested to hear if anyone has sucessfully done this?
As a buy to let I would favour Leipzig. As a holiday let destination, there is no competition, Dresden wins hands down. Berlin is still cheap compared to other major cities in Europe and if you buy/refurbish carefully you should not be disappointed. Beware - there are some sharks operating in Berlin so don't fall for any flannel, smoke screens or BS. If this purchase is for your own occassional use and holiday rentals it will prove to be an astute buy simply because Berlin and Germany as a whole is a wonderful destination. As an out and out investment tool things are not so clear. Your appreciation will not see the meteoric 50% pa boasted in so many more volatile areas but there is the rub - your money in Germany is about as safe as it is ever going to get.
It is not that difficult to extract 50% mortgages from many German lenders, go above that and it gets increasingly difficult. I spent 6 months of last year trying to put together deals with major financial interests and after much posturing and promising it all came to nought at the last moment. I have advised people to see if they can raise the finance in the UK instead or better still buy what they can afford cash, build up a record of rentals and then approach the banks with a track record and some equity in a German property. As always this situation will be subject to change and I have wind of a couple of influential players in the field who are making inroads into the German banking system - so it's watch this space I guess. I further advise you use a Germany based or focussed agent. I am not here touting my own company - last time I put my e-mail in I was barred for about six months. There are others on here who have mentioned my company and I'd be delighted to work on your behalf - all you have to do is track us down. Failing the Maigret act, I have used these companies in Germany from time to time and not been let down yet by them. Saxony Property Services LTD (Based in Redditch/Bremerhaven/Dresden, G + B property source in Spandau and Berlin repossessions based in Berlin/Waltham Abbey. Hope this has been of use to you and good luck.
I do find this site frustrating as there is seemingly no way to contact people like yourself who are able to offer info of value to others. I understand that agents can abuse a forum but other sites allow posters to use their own discretion. I will try and track you down or else see my post on the streetwise forum.
Since posting I am looking into the possibility of an offer for a 70% LTV mortgage. Will let you know how it goes.
Leipzig and Dresdon are both appealing for different reasons, but I am happy with decision on Berlin this time. It is for BTL, any thoughts on how many beds rent best and whether ready tenanted apartments are best?
Hi Mr BC, just thought I might offer my 2 penneth. If your interested in BLT, then you should consider that there are alot of flats already tennented for sale in berlin, this is usually because the tennants don't want to leave and are paying low rents. You should consider buying untenneted and in a good area, and a good building, the older buildings are by far the best investments i.e 1890 - 1910 as even if they are in a poor state of repair many are being done up and they are always the most popular.
You should also consider short term letting as this gives the best return for furnished apartments and you don't get stuck with permanent tennants who may not ever wish to leave.
Look very carefully at where you are buying as well, this can make a huge difference. Top location tips would be, avoid Mitte it is over priced compared with other districts and the rents ar'nt much higher. Anywhere near or around Ku'damm is very good. Wilmersdorf, Charlottenburg, Prenzlaur Berg, Steglitz(but only around schloss strasse area) and grunwald(this is an expensive area but always exclusive, as so many rich and famous live there) are the best areas to buy in.
Teirgarden and Wedding although central in location are still very run down and not popular.
Areas along the spree and the canals are also popular as is the area around Charlottenburg palace which has tube stations near bye and S bahn, many parks and the river spree behind the palace gardens. Great place for short term lets as many lovely old buildings and thousands of tourists.
Anyway hope some of this helps best wishs and good luck.
Firstly, let answer your question about Wedding. There seems to be a huge turkish population there, not that I have anything against turks or any other peoples for that matter, the point is that in areas such as this with big foreign populations the government doesn't seem to have spent the required money to bring the standards up and the whole places looks years off being anything like. I look at a few big apartments there in what looked nice old buildings but the area was just so off putting I couldn't bring myself to buy there.
As to there being a few nice micro locations, this may be true as most districts in berlin have at least a few nice streets that have been done up.
The question however is does it make financial sense, because they have been done up and are being well cared for you will usually have to pay a big preium to buy there as opposed to the rest of the district which can and does in most cases then push the cost up past that of far more desirable districts.
My advice would be if you want to save some money buy in an older, but definatly not communist era, building that may still use some renovation, in one of the best disticts on a street that may still need doing up. In the long run it will prove to be the best investment by far.
If possible try to get something near some good shops, within a least a kilometer, near a tube station again no more than a kilometer and also near a nice park, the river or other tourist attraction as they will all make your property far more rentable and will add hugely to long term growth.
Also in most cases try and ignore what agents tell you unless you have asked then a diresct question, because they will only ever tell you what is in their best interest to say.
When it comes to renting I would be thinking more of a daily let, with discouts for week plus bookings, and with the number of events and tourists Berlin recieves you realisticly should be paying for your apartment through returns in about 6 years. And for short term lettings try a company like crocadilian who specialise in short term lets.
But please, please don't take my words as gospel, check things out for yourself and see what works best for you.
Hi Mr BC, May I come in on this post as an ordinary pedestrian, but with family and friends and personal experience with many business visits to Berlin. You are getting some excellent advice here, I would like to stress the aspect of the shops as Chrisgorlitz mentions and importantly bear in mind the ‘S’ and/or U-Bahn when you are looking for a place, taxis are expensive and not easy to get in these areas. Furthermore, fairs are critical to Berlin as they represent accommodation business, you are not relying on the weather like you do with tourists, if you have an apartment and leave it ‘to let’ with a good agency it will be full at a good daily rate!
I attended the ITB - International tourism fair- the largest in the Welt held in the Funkturm, have a look on the map around there, again some excellent areas have been mentioned, check them out. I booked my accommodation rather late last year for this fair and I stayed in the Wedding area, I knew Wedding some time ago and was very pleasantly surprised how tidy and clean the streets looked, shops galore, nice breakfast/restaurant areas. My daily rate was not cheap! There was no accommodation left in the whole of Berlin. So, an opportunity, I would say yes, but check things out!
Originally posted by Chrisgorlitz: the river or other tourist attraction as they will all make your property far more rentable and will add hugely to long term growth.
Will?
"Possibly", surely?
Growth is never guaranteed and we are talking about a country that has largely not seen significant growth in house prices for 15 years.
Thanks Chris and Anke, appreciate you taking time to give info. Checked out ITB fair and crocodillian rental site, all very interesting. In your opinions, what level of purchase price would you go for and how many bedrooms would let best? Thanks in advance
Rooms:- Studio - 1 bedroom, cheaper entry level, rental can be aimed at single business men or couples. And for small families put up beds can be included, which gives them the option to save money rather than pay big for larger places. Also this may give you a place to use yourself while looking for other investments.
Prices should be looking at €55,000 - €75,000 for small apartment in good location in an old(Non Communist era building). Though top locations you would have to pay a lot more.
Things to take on board:- 1.) Price 2.) Location (District, street, facilities, shops, events, tourist attractions, parks, U & S Bahn) 3.) Size (Number of rooms, or square meterage of floor space) 4.) Building type (This can have a dramatic effect on price) 5.) Interior condition of apartment(needing renovation?, been renovated needs redecorating?, tip top condition? ect..) 6.) Wohngeld (maintanence fee for the apartment)
Don't worry to much about building condition, inside of apartment far more important for short term lets so don't pay a premiun as you won't get it back through the rent, or lack of parking as most visitors prefer to travel by U or S bahn .
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