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Dustin, by paying taxes the way you do you also quietly condone the way the system allows the waste of food & of other stuff to happen in the first place. Are you happy to know that your tax money goes toward that too? Wouldn't you rather see your tax money being used to MINIMISE waste, and then see the amount of tax you would have to pay SHRINK, as the government then would have to spend less money on e. g. (partly criminal) waste disposal programmes? Of course, we can boycott the present course of things also by not BUYING SO MANY NEW CONSUMER ITEMS in the first place, but the deplorable problem with this is that the high wages of repair specialists & the sometimes difficult access to spare parts make it usually more expensive to fix an item, than to buy something new. And that is just another example of how our high wages contribute to the increasing exploitation & destruction of our planet, which in turn makes people more susceptible to sicknesses, and so forth... What do you think? Where is your heart really?
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I wrote the following before Dustin's latest post, although I don't think the latest post has altered what I would have said. I do appreciate, however, that he is explaining more specifically what his position is. I think there are a lot of people who share his feeling that somehow freegans are getting away with something... breaking some law with regard to taxes. In fact, I'm confident that we are not. I'm not sure of the laws in the UK, but here in Australia, one must make a certain amount of money before they even have to SUBMIT a tax claim, and when there is some doubt as to whether someone is making more than the minimal threshhold, they simply examine the person's assets and the government can have them arrested for tax fraud on the basis of those assets if nothing else. I hardly think that Danny's fifty-pound second-hand laptop is going to land Rols and Sue in the clink!
Anyway, here is my earlier post (written here in Oz during the middle of the night, when this forum was closed down)...
Dustin, thank you for asking such interesting questions. It is easy for people who are hearing, for the first time, something that is very radically different to their normal way of thinking, to have some difficulty in getting the picture of what is really being expressed.
You ask, for example, what would happen if everyone lived in motorhomes and gave out leaflets and asked for donations. If you were to name any occupation (even something as obviously practical as being a doctor), I could reply in much the same way: "What would happen if everyone was a surgeon, and charged hundreds of thousands of dollars for surgery?" That sort of thing. Obviously, we need all kinds of occupations to make up a healthy society.
We have reasons for what we are doing, as do other people who use words on paper (or on the internet, like we are doing here) to communicate their ideas. Some ideas and thoughts would not interest me at all, and so I would never think of paying the prices that some people ask for in order to read what they have written. But other ideas DO appeal to me, and I might be willing to pay a little for my own copy of what is being said. But, of course, if writing words was the only thing that everyone in the world did, there would be a lot of other very important jobs that would not be done. So we are not saying that everyone SHOULD do what we are doing. Even we ourselves do not all live in motorhomes, nor do we all distribute leaflets.
On the other hand, you also ask, Dustin, what it would be like if everyone was a freegan, and if no one paid taxes. Actually, I think it would be a wonderful world, but only if you understand that "freegan" does not mean "dumpster diver". The freegan philosophy, carried to its ultimate extreme, would have all of us freely sharing our time, skills, energy, and resources with others. Virtually everything that happens in the world at the moment (e.g. road construction, education facilities, farming, shipping, etc.) would still continue, but money would not change hands. We would all continue to "work", but there would be no need for money at the end of the day because everyone else would be working for the good of others at the same time. It would be wonderful!
You ask, if we are not a charity, why do we not pay taxes. Actually, we DO pay taxes. Not income taxes, because we do not make enough income to qualify for the first tax threshhold. It's all perfectly legal. In fact, we could probably make many times MORE money than we are now making and STILL not pay taxes, just by registering as a business. See, if we were a business, we would (of course) be able to claim all of our printing expenses, but we could also claim enough expenses to cover meals in restaurants and accommodation in hotels while we are on the roads. Our actual "income" would only start after all of these expenses were covered!
It bothers me that people so often talk like we are robbing "the taxpayer" when we are only living according to laws that "the voters" made. It seems that some of the wealthier people in our society prefer to think of themselves as "taxpayers" rather than as "voters", because as voters they are seen as equal to everyone else, whereas as "taxpayers", they somehow imagine they have a right to condemn anyone who pays less tax than themselves. Thank God that these guys do not make up the majority of the voters, or every cripple, elderly person, or single mother would be out on the street, starving, unhoused, and without any medical treatment until the day they died.
Finally, Dustin says, "What about giving to Caesar what belongs to Caesar?" It's funny how many people like to quote only half of that verse of the Bible, without quoting the other half. In fact, it was the genius behind Jesus saying it in the first place... he knew that those who were trying to lynch him would only hear the half that they wanted to hear and, as a result, convince themselves that he was actually preaching what they wanted him to preach, which is that life is all about paying taxes.
So does anyone know what the other half of the verse is? Because if you start with that half, it might give a lot clearer picture of what is left for Caesar to claim.
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Don't let this show get you too worked up. Remember, it's not real. The show is scripted. It is scripted to maximize any negativity or shock value to the viewers. The show participants (I call them victims) are rarely in real life the way the show portrays them. Silent Bob dives back into his bin...
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*~Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.~*
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Hi Dustin,
I was curious to know why you feel that Freeganism will not work on a large scale, and why you feel that religion is what shapes freeganism.
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This is an interesting point that "open up" brought up. People may think that a few individuals can survive living like freegans, but that the concept would not work for the larger society. But shouldn't the idea really be that everyone lives a truly freegan life in love & truth?! And what are the reasons for it to be impossible on a larger scale? We may have to simply lay aside fear and pride, and just give it a go.
I don't feel at all that freeganism is influenced by religion. But maybe I think that because I come from a non-religious background.
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quote: Originally posted by Susan_G: quote: Originally posted by albie:
Oh my sweet lord!
How does eating out of bins help the starving people in the world?
Hi Albie, put simply a lot of the food we find in the bins has come from the developing world only to be thrown out in our over abundant and wasteful society that we live in and are resonsible for. 10% of the world consumes (and wastes) 90% of the world's resources, so there is not enough for some and too much for others. That is why some people starve. The less we waste, consume or purchase such food in this country, the less it will be demanded of and therefore supplied from the developing countries. Hence they will have more food and land for their own needs. It takes a bit of imagination and thought to want to see the bigger world picture though. (my reply: what? do you think the starving poor in Africa have the cash to buy this spare food? I recall a scene recently where some farmers in africa were starving while in the local town there was a market jam packed with food. They weren't about to feed their starving neighbours.) quote: How does handing out pamphlets do any good? How is that earning the right to use our health service and schools?
How does you posting on a forum like this do any good? It's easy to criticise isn't it? How do children "earn the right" to go to school in this country? We must have misunderstood something because we thought the health service in this country was available to anyone who was legally entitled to it, and it didn't matter whether you were rich or poor, black or white, Jewish, Muslim, Christian or atheist. (My reply: I posted on here to vent steam. Which is all handing out a pamphlet does. You know most people just bin it. How many members do you have? 25? Catch on. Because we won't.) quote: That millionaire probably gives more to charity each year than they ever could in a life time.
We are not criticizing how much money the millionaire gives to charity. God bless him for whatever he gives. How much money someone gives is not really the issue being discussed. (My reply: I'm talking about actual physical help, rather than the slow drip drip of 25 people handing out soon to be binned pamphlets. You think doing that simple act means you can steal off the tax payers? I wonder what God would say to that) quote: How are they promoting a better life? If we all decided to eat out of bins they would starve. I would get there before them and watch them shrivel and pray.
It seems like this hard attitude of wanting to get their first and watch people shrivel is what has caused the suffering in the world. We need a lot more empathy, love and understanding to make things better rather than worse. Greed breeds mean deeds. (My Reply: you are avoiding the issue. We cannot all eat out of bins. Iff this ideology caught on they would stop putting the stuff in bins you could get at. They would sell it. Or burn it. You're lifestyle is a small enterprise. It will never thrive into anything more than harmless parasitism. Good luck with your bins. It is not a movement of significance. Hence your pamphlet is in the bin) quote: God provides? Tesco must be their God.
We are exposing the wrong doing of supermarkets, such as Tesco, and criticising them for their waste. They are not our God. We would be very happy if there was no more waste as this would mean more food for everyone, which is why we went on TV to expose this problem to bring about change.
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Your movement is called FREEganism.
How flawed a notion. If it caught on there would be nothing FREE. You'd have to change your name to STEALganism.
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It seems this basic flaw in your movement is being ignored by the freegans.
IS this in fact a hoax organisation?
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quote: Originally posted by Reino:
Dustin, by paying taxes the way you do you also quietly condone the way the system allows the waste of food & of other stuff to happen in the first place. Are you happy to know that your tax money goes toward that too? Wouldn't you rather see your tax money being used to MINIMISE waste, and then see the amount of tax you would have to pay SHRINK, as the government then would have to spend less money on e. g. (partly criminal) waste disposal programmes? Of course, we can boycott the present course of things also by not BUYING SO MANY NEW CONSUMER ITEMS in the first place, but the deplorable problem with this is that the high wages of repair specialists & the sometimes difficult access to spare parts make it usually more expensive to fix an item, than to buy something new. And that is just another example of how our high wages contribute to the increasing exploitation & destruction of our planet, which in turn makes people more susceptible to sicknesses, and so forth... What do you think? Where is your heart really?
You have some points. I just think what you do means nothing. You would do better to work and gain money enough to develop a proper voice. |
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David Mc wrote quote: On the other hand, you also ask, Dustin, what it would be like if everyone was a freegan, and if no one paid taxes. Actually, I think it would be a wonderful world, but only if you understand that "freegan" does not mean "dumpster diver". The freegan philosophy, carried to its ultimate extreme, would have all of us freely sharing our time, skills, energy, and resources with others. Virtually everything that happens in the world at the moment (e.g. road construction, education facilities, farming, shipping, etc.) would still continue, but money would not change hands. We would all continue to "work", but there would be no need for money at the end of the day because everyone else would be working for the good of others at the same time. It would be wonderful!
That's what we already have to an extent. The wealthfare system. Problem is it is abused by people who do not want to work. They feign illness and rake it in. Wouldn't you be better off hunting these people out and preaching to them? Of course, you will blame the capitalist system for creating them in the first place. An unfounded belief. Look to the animal world. They steal all the time off each other. It's a common trait of us apes (I bet that's going to touch a nerve). There will always be lazy sods who simply consider all the working folk fools. What will you do with them in your freegan world? Stone them? Chop their hands off? The reason the world isn't as you like it is because of these people. The rich were created by these people, not the other way around. People had to defend what they had from raiders. It's always been that way. That promotes a desire for more wealth to better defend society. That's where kings came from. Go study your bible on that one. You want to blame Tesco for not being able to sell out of date food? Have you thought of the cost of storing this stuff? In freezers? Fine then, send it to africa. Send that food to them. I'm all for that. Always have been. All the butter mountains etc. That'll stop you getting your dinner though. Mmm. You'll better move to africa then. Pick through their bins. I can't see how you could find food any other way. Or is that your aim? |
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quote: You ask, if we are not a charity, why do we not pay taxes. Actually, we DO pay taxes. Not income taxes, because we do not make enough income to qualify for the first tax threshhold. It's all perfectly legal. In fact, we could probably make many times MORE money than we are now making and STILL not pay taxes, just by registering as a business. See, if we were a business, we would (of course) be able to claim all of our printing expenses, but we could also claim enough expenses to cover meals in restaurants and accommodation in hotels while we are on the roads. Our actual "income" would only start after all of these expenses were covered!
How are you a business? Recycling food that you eat yourself? What do you do? Handing out pamphlets is not a business. |
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“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”
And what are god's things? Food? Yeah, God provided them to us. Famers grew them they sold them to Tesco and then threw THEIR food away.
The point when that food was yours is gone. Give unto Tesco what is Tescos. That food is still legally theirs.
You steal from Caesar(the legal system of the land).
God's things are us. our souls. If you starve and do not steal from Tesco then you are righteous, following that logic.
If you try to say that all things are god's then you are logically going against Jesus' saying.
There is ownership outside of God. You steal from it.
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I found the show to be really intruging. I'm not attacking the freegan family but I don't understand why leftovers *had* to be eaten, especially when they are not fit to be eaten - as seen with the dregs of cereal and the leftover meal that the millionnaire husband spat back up after eating it for breakfast. I know the argument of "people are starving" , but is forcing people to eat food that is almost unedible helping? Is it just for the fact that many people would be happy to have the food? In my opinion it's insulting to those people that are starving to pretend that we are the same as them. God has given you an amazing opportunity by giving you options that people in third world countries are not given - you can easily get a job, live in a warm place, pay taxes to be able to send your children to school or to be cared for in the NHS. Do you think that people in third world countries would not grab these opportunities with both hands if they had them? You are effectively cheapening what they go through and verging on martyrdom. I do understand the anger at the supermarkets that throw away perfectly good food - I myself work at a supermarket and see the volume of food thrown away for broken packaging or being past a "display" date but not being past the "best before date". But you have to appreciate that these supermarkets are legally obliged to do this because of health and safety legislation - if a supermarket were to sell food that was split open or past a "best before" date, and then become ill, then there is a possible lawsuit. I'm not at all saying that this is the way it SHOULD be, but that for now this is the way it IS. Do you feel that stealing from a supermarket is the way to change this? I'm not deeply religious, but I thought that stealing was wrong according to the ten commandments? So is this not hypocracy? Or do you feel that you can pick and choose which parts of the bible that you adhere to on a day-to-day basis? I'm not attacking you, I just want to understand more about how you justify the way you live with your beliefs? Also, when it comes to the tax issue, I feel as though you never answer a straight question - you just dance around the question by attacking the people that pay taxed to "feed the system" or whatever. You claim not to want to feed the "system" yet you actively take things from it. Is this not slightly hypocritical to you?
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YES! OH YES! I control sandwich monkey!
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I just want to add to my comment about supermarkets. The food that is thrown out is not just food that is worthless and therefore chucked out for the taking. Every penny of waste has to be recorded and accounted for. Therefore stealing from waste bins is still stealing. It is no different to going into the store and taking things from the shelf.
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YES! OH YES! I control sandwich monkey!
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Why don't more shops/supermarkets give over unsold(in date obviously)food to charities instead of chucking it away?
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The only reason that food that's in date would be thrown away is because the packaging is open/broken or if it's past the "display by" date. To have damaged/past display date food given away to charities or whatnot then it's something that the food standards agency would have to deal with.
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YES! OH YES! I control sandwich monkey!
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quote: Originally posted by Susan_G:
We are exposing the wrong doing of supermarkets, such as Tesco, and criticising them for their waste. They are not our God. We would be very happy if there was no more waste as this would mean more food for everyone, which is why we went on TV to expose this problem to bring about change.
Hello Susan. I wish I had seen the programme. I missed it but heard about it from others who had seen it. Good for you girl! I can't believe the idiots on this forum who actually think that if a millionaire gives a lot to charity, then that makes them more 'charitable', 'good', (whatever judgements they put on it). When will people wise up and realise that some people get paid millions of pounds wages or bonuses for ripping off other people. According to this way of thinking, the city slicker stock market merchant who gives a couple of thousand to charity, but gets a 2 million pound bonus by ripping off the poor coffee grower in Africa is a 'good person', whereas the coffee grower him/herself, who cannot give to charity is worthless. I do wish people would think things through. I do wish people would stop dishing out their labels of 'worthy', 'unworthy', on the basis of how much money they have or can give away. But no worries, the truth will out in the end and so will justice and love and goodness and all that stuff. Thank you, you wonderful 'bin diver'. You have my utmost admiration. |
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quote: The freegan philosophy, carried to its ultimate extreme, would have all of us freely sharing our time, skills, energy, and resources with others. Virtually everything that happens in the world at the moment (e.g. road construction, education facilities, farming, shipping, etc.) would still continue, but money would not change hands. We would all continue to "work", but there would be no need for money at the end of the day because everyone else would be working for the good of others at the same time. It would be wonderful!
Thank you David. That's the world I want to live in and I truly believe that it will come. Not sure when, hope it's soon though 'cos I don't like the world we're in right now. Mind you, it isn't so much the 'world', as the people in it. If people only shared this true brotherhood feeling, then we could have that world right now. So sad that so many are still into this destructive system of selfishness and non-understanding about the REAL nature of life and love. Thank you for your philosophy. I love it. |
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Polythene Girl said:
I do understand the anger at the supermarkets that throw away perfectly good food - I myself work at a supermarket and see the volume of food thrown away for broken packaging or being past a "display" date but not being past the "best before date". But you have to appreciate that these supermarkets are legally obliged to do this because of health and safety legislation - if a supermarket were to sell food that was split open or past a "best before" date, and then become ill, then there is a possible lawsuit. I'm not at all saying that this is the way it SHOULD be, but that for now this is the way it IS.
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Plythene Girl, that is precisely what the Freegans are challenging. They are challenging the crazy rulings and laws that make it possible to put 'health and safety' above saving someones death by hunger. They are challenging what you rightly say is how it IS. Don't you get it?
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I should have said the crazy health and safety legislations put their rulings above saving people from death by starvation. i.e. they would rather throw away food that was past it's 'display by' date, than save a person's life who was dying of starvation.
If we take this philosophy to its conclusion, then we have a hell on earth. And what we REALLY, REALLY WANT is HEAVEN ON EARTH. And it can be our's. Right now, if enough of us want it.
So, all we need ask ourselves is this:
Do we want what we have or do we challenge what we have? And the freewhateveritis way is to do it peacefully, consistently, lovingly, respectfully, and it is wonderful.
Thank you all you free people.
Love ya.
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Sorry to interrupt. This has turned into a great discussion (and one we highlighted last week in Forum Buzz, our round-up of what’s being said about C4 shows across the forums). The makers of The TV Show would like to hear your opinions on Wife Swap. If you are interested, please send your thoughts to thetvshow@channel4.com. Maybe record a video clip (or sound clip if you're shy) of your comment on your camera, phone etc and email that in. Tell them I sent you. Hopefully, – assuming you don’t swear like a trooper – you’ll get to see your view aired on The TV Show (16:10 Saturday 1 March), Channel 4’s monthly discussion about what’s on TV. See Tell Krishnan for the latest on the debates for The TV Show, Saturday. Channel 4’s monthly debate on TV. Currently the bookies’ favourites for debate are Boom and Bust (did property shows contribute to the housing boom?) and Shockdocs (are they educational or exploitative?). If you've got views on either of these topics, let the folks at The TV Show know. Cheers, The TV Show Web Ed. P.S. talking of video clips, there’s been some great ones left at The Big4 Video Box, which may a/bemuse you. |
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