quote:

Originally posted by ipsilon:
I don't think it's necessarily down to bad parenting........The only thing I know drove me into the "bad crowds" was that they accepted me, which none of my school peers did as I was a target for emotional and verbal bullying throughout my school time.

Did your parents do anything to try and solve the bullying problem as it sounds like that's the trigger for your downwards spiral?
did they just try giving you a good old fashioned slap?

pinkslippers - like I said I had a serious wake up call when I came a whisker away from being sent to prison after ending up in court. I went away for a bit and did some volunteering work abroad, then got a proper job when I came back, which was again abroad. I think really the eighteen odd months I spent out of the country were key for me, because I was interacting mostly with older, much more sorted people who gave me something to aspire to as opposed to people who enabled and encouraged my behaviour. By the time I was back on English soil I just wanted to knuckle down and get on with life.

euclidian - yes, and no. Unfortunately there was a lot of denial on the part of my school about the bullying problem, made worse by the fact that I didn't really talk about anything in detail until it was already out of control, and I ended up getting expelled from two schools because of my lack of respect for the teachers and other students and general refusal to do anything that was asked of me. As for the "good old fashioned slap"....it was just never an option for my parents, beyond a smack on the behind it would just never happen, and I got too strong for them to restrain me for long enough by the time I was thirteen. Besides which knowing the way I reacted to all forms of discipline I probably would have just laughed in their faces.

I should say though, that me and my family have mended the relationships and bonds that I shattered as a teenager and are very close and mutually supportive now. I've also graduated from Uni with high honours and have a happy life, a flat and two lovely cats, so everything did come together eventually!

Ipsilon - fantastic to hear that young people can turn things around. Thanks for your wise words and sharing your story. It cheered me up a lot!

I certainly find the thought that physical discipline could tame a teen to be ridiculous. If you are trying to teach your kid not to hit out when they are angry, why be hypocritical and thump them yourself? I think the key question here is how a young person who is going 'off the rails' can get support in the UK. If you have v. little money it is so tough to find help for your kids in crisis. Parents and kids seem to mainly get ASBOs and court summons thrown at them, rather than support. Apparently 2000 parents applied to brat camp last time - what happens for these desperate families?

quote:

Originally posted by grown up and past it:
I certainly find the thought that physical discipline could tame a teen to be ridiculous. If you are trying to teach your kid not to hit out when they are angry, why be hypocritical and thump them yourself? I think the key question here is how a young person who is going 'off the rails' can get support in the UK. If you have v. little money it is so tough to find help for your kids in crisis. Parents and kids seem to mainly get ASBOs and court summons thrown at them, rather than support. Apparently 2000 parents applied to brat camp last time - what happens for these desperate families?

Parents need classes on how to raise children, especially those from a working class background who have children while they themselves are still children. So many stupid mistakes are made that only make things worse such as kicking your child out of the house for several nights, leaving them in the hands of the people who will drag them down even further.
appropiate physical punishment worked decades ago and there is no reason why it shouldn't work now. There is a difference between disiplining a child and lashing out in anger.
At least the government is taking a step in the right direction by forcing parents to take responsibility for their failure as parents by imposing fines and jail time for stuff like truancy.

Working Class people are no worse as parents than the middle classes. Perhaps you've never met one? Lack of opportunities or income doesn't necessitate ignorance. Believe me I've come across quite a few ignorant middle class parents in my time. At least we know how to parent with warmth and realism!

"Physical punishment worked decades ago" ??? Show me a parent who 'disciplines' physically not in anger and I'll show you a liar. I was never beaten or smacked by my parents and I certainly turned out ok.

Sending vulnerable parents to jail because their child is bunking off is ridiculous. There is always a reason why a child refuses to attend school - usually mental health issues or bullying or family crisis (or a crap school). Fining people on low incomes can only mean further distress to the family. Dealing with the reasons behind the behaviour and truanting is the answer to all this.

Forcing parents to attend parenting classes has not been necessary so far with the vast majority 'parenting orders', in fact most parents and carers who have been through these courses have said they wished that they had been offered these before things got to crisis stage.

You sound naieve in the extreme, doll, I presume you are either not a parent yet or certainly aren't struggling to bring up a teenager on your own.

My daughter was truanting due to depression and bullying - her twin sister is a model student. How do you account for that eh? Kids are individuals with individual lives to lead - there is a point where most parents realise that their impact is lessening - usually around the age of 13. At this point peer pressure and street culture become harder to battle. All you can do is parent with respect, find support from the school and other agencies and try and keep them safe.

I just hope you never, ever have to go through we have over the last three years.

quote:

Originally posted by grown up and past it:
Working Class people are no worse as parents than the middle classes. Perhaps you've never met one? Lack of opportunities or income doesn't necessitate ignorance. Believe me I've come across quite a few ignorant middle class parents in my time. At least we know how to parent with warmth and realism!

If you read the rest of the sentance you would have seen that I was referring to people who have children while they themselves are still children, unfortunatly it's a fact that the majority of teen pregancys are amongst the working class population.
I grew up in a working class family and saw many people around me, including my sister fall into the trap of having children while they are young and lack the stability of a long term relationship, life experiences and financial stability to bring up a child.
That is not to say that the middleclass are blameless though. Having your child raised by an au-pair before shipping them off to boarding school untill they are 16 is no way to raise a child.

quote:

"Physical punishment worked decades ago" ??? Show me a parent who 'disciplines' physically not in anger and I'll show you a liar. I was never beaten or smacked by my parents and I certainly turned out ok.

It sure as hell worked in schools.

quote:

Sending vulnerable parents to jail because their child is bunking off is ridiculous. There is always a reason why a child refuses to attend school - usually mental health issues or bullying or family crisis (or a crap school). Fining people on low incomes can only mean further distress to the family. Dealing with the reasons behind the behaviour and truanting is the answer to all this.

Forcing parents to attend parenting classes has not been necessary so far with the vast majority 'parenting orders', in fact most parents and carers who have been through these courses have said they wished that they had been offered these before things got to crisis stage.

Oh I agree totally that they should be offered before crisis stage. I'd even go as far to say that it should be taught alongside sex education in the school system.

quote:

You sound naieve in the extreme, doll, I presume you are either not a parent yet or certainly aren't struggling to bring up a teenager on your own.

calling a guy "doll" just doesn't work well.

quote:

My daughter was truanting due to depression and bullying - her twin sister is a model student. How do you account for that eh?

As I've said before on this forum schools need to pull their fingers out and crack down on bullying. yes there are token "beat the bully" initiatives and other "look we care!" schemes, but at the end of the day little is done to help victims of bullying, something that can affect people for the rest of their life.[/quote]

quote:

Kids are individuals with individual lives to lead - there is a point where most parents realise that their impact is lessening - usually around the age of 13. At this point peer pressure and street culture become harder to battle. All you can do is parent with respect, find support from the school and other agencies and try and keep them safe.

I just hope you never, ever have to go through we have over the last three years.

Yeah! you're right re the parenting classes ...

I've been trying at work to get funding for a project to look at 'pre-parenting' classes in schools for some time. Some PSHCE teachers (Personal, social, health and citizenship) are brilliant at introducing this but it isn't a focus within the national curriculum. Trouble is trusts tend to say that it's the DfES's responsibility but the DfES aren't taking it on.

There is, of course, a whole theory about girls getting pregnant early due to low expectations. There is also clear evidence that young girls in care and leaving care are also at high risk of teen pregnancy. I do think I had a lucky escape in my area ... somehow I realised that school (although I hated it) would be my only escape from where I was brought up. I've come across many school peers who are already grandparents - pretty scary. There is a brilliant course called Speakeasy, which is run by the Family Planning Association, that helps parents and carers to talk to their kids about sex education. I wish it was more nationally available as I know there are a lot of parents who find it tough to talk through such things with their kids.

Re the bullying ... absolutely agree - so many young people have to experience this, if you look at helplines like parentline plus, ACE and YoungMinds you will see that many parents are at their wits end in trying to get schools to address the problem. We never did resolve the issues my daughter was experiencing - she was regularly getting mugged and pounded on her way to and from school ... not really surprising that she chose not to go in the end. We went to every meeting the school called, but they never had any answers ... just kept saying "You have to go to school". They actually stated that if she was 'thick' (yep ... that's the word they used) that they could find alternatives but she was bright so they couldn't help. Astounding.

We just ended up being sent letters telling us they were going to fine me or send me to court. They've given up now since she got back from Utah.

Sorry Euclidian ... I call everyone doll or poppet or sweetheart. Non gender specific but a habit I should get out of! (Stems from being called love by blokes back in the 80s).

quote:

Originally posted by grown up and past it:
Yeah! you're right re the parenting classes ...

I've been trying at work to get funding for a project to look at 'pre-parenting' classes in schools for some time. Some PSHCE teachers (Personal, social, health and citizenship) are brilliant at introducing this but it isn't a focus within the national curriculum. Trouble is trusts tend to say that it's the DfES's responsibility but the DfES aren't taking it on.

It's typical, instead of addressing the problem they simply give a "not our problem" excuse. Have you ever considered writing a letter to your MP concerning the issue?

quote:

There is, of course, a whole theory about girls getting pregnant early due to low expectations. There is also clear evidence that young girls in care and leaving care are also at high risk of teen pregnancy. I do think I had a lucky escape in my area ... somehow I realised that school (although I hated it) would be my only escape from where I was brought up. I've come across many school peers who are already grandparents - pretty scary. There is a brilliant course called Speakeasy, which is run by the Family Planning Association, that helps parents and carers to talk to their kids about sex education. I wish it was more nationally available as I know there are a lot of parents who find it tough to talk through such things with their kids.

congratulations on sticking with it and escaping your previous situation....I don't mean to sound condensending, I've seen so many friends try and fail and know how hard it is to escape from first hand experience.
I definatly agree that sex education needs to be more detailed and open. unfortunatly we don't talk about the S word in this country although things are getting better. It's a shame that we don't adopt the open attitude of a lot of european countries. not being afraid to talk about sex is essential for good sex ed!

quote:

Re the bullying ... absolutely agree - so many young people have to experience this, if you look at helplines like parentline plus, ACE and YoungMinds you will see that many parents are at their wits end in trying to get schools to address the problem. We never did resolve the issues my daughter was experiencing - she was regularly getting mugged and pounded on her way to and from school ... not really surprising that she chose not to go in the end. We went to every meeting the school called, but they never had any answers ... just kept saying "You have to go to school". They actually stated that if she was 'thick' (yep ... that's the word they used) that they could find alternatives but she was bright so they couldn't help. Astounding.

We just ended up being sent letters telling us they were going to fine me or send me to court. They've given up now since she got back from Utah.

yet again, letter to MP, especially if he's not labour. I'd imagine they would jump on that as a way to get a bit of good publicity for themselves.
May i ask which "brat" is yours? just out of interest.

I'm glad we ended up in agreement in the end wish you the best of luck with your daughter

gah i guess reading the "brat" stories would have answered my last question!
Just wanted to say (if what I hear from another brat is true) that I have a lot of respect for your daughter having managed to obtain the job she now has considering what she's been through. I wish her the best of luck and am confident that she can make a difference. Having the experiences she has and knowing where she went wrong puts her in a great position to relate to those she can help.

IMO there are so many mixed messages being handed to girls these days. Luckily, I have never been embarrassed about discussing sex with my daughter (partly I'm sure because my mother was always so open with me) however, the way magazines and television cover sexual issues must be confusing for them and conflicts with the parent who is trying to promote love, relationships and the confidence not to buckle under peer pressure.
Features in magazines designed to be read by 9-13 year olds and tv glamorises sexual promiscuity. I believe they are telling girls that it's cool to be sexually active and even when girls are not sexually active at say 15, they lie about it to each other. I once complained to the manager of a national retail chain about the posters featured in their window displays. They showed heavily made up girls as young as 8 in very short skirts, halter tops with their belly buttons showing. What sort of message does that give? And what's worse, who buys it?

I read an interview from Norman, a member of staff at Aspen. When asked about the differences between American and British girls, one of the things he said was that British girls were far more comfortable and open when talking about sex, whilst the American girls, who maybe thinking about sex are far more puritan when discussing it. I think the states had a huge 'just say no' campaign about sex (and drugs), but wonder if a) it worked significantly and b) if, comparing like with like, they have a significant problem with teenage pregnancies too. I'd be interested to know.

May i ask which "brat" is yours? just out of interest.

I'm glad we ended up in agreement in the end wish you the best of luck with your daughter[/QUOTE]

It's Rosie. She says "thanks" for your good wishes.
x

quote:

If you read the rest of the sentance you would have seen that I was referring to people who have children while they themselves are still children, unfortunatly it's a fact that the majority of teen pregancys are amongst the working class population.
I grew up in a working class family and saw many people around me, including my sister fall into the trap of having children while they are young and lack the stability of a long term relationship, life experiences and financial stability to bring up a child.

Excuse me but i find this rather offensive. I had my daughter when i was 18 years old. She is almost 2 now and she is a very well behaved child. I am still with her father we have our own place, he has a full time job and i work part-time. We are in a good financial situation mostly (although sometimes we do struggle). So what exactly are you saying here about teenage pregnancys?

quote:

Originally posted by sunnysideup:
IMO there are so many mixed messages being handed to girls these days. Luckily, I have never been embarrassed about discussing sex with my daughter (partly I'm sure because my mother was always so open with me) however, the way magazines and television cover sexual issues must be confusing for them and conflicts with the parent who is trying to promote love, relationships and the confidence not to buckle under peer pressure.
Features in magazines designed to be read by 9-13 year olds and tv glamorises sexual promiscuity. I believe they are telling girls that it's cool to be sexually active and even when girls are not sexually active at say 15, they lie about it to each other. I once complained to the manager of a national retail chain about the posters featured in their window displays. They showed heavily made up girls as young as 8 in very short skirts, halter tops with their belly buttons showing. What sort of message does that give? And what's worse, who buys it?

I read an interview from Norman, a member of staff at Aspen. When asked about the differences between American and British girls, one of the things he said was that British girls were far more comfortable and open when talking about sex, whilst the American girls, who maybe thinking about sex are far more puritan when discussing it. I think the states had a huge 'just say no' campaign about sex (and drugs), but wonder if a) it worked significantly and b) if, comparing like with like, they have a significant problem with teenage pregnancies too. I'd be interested to know.

Oh I definatly agree with you! The way sex is promoted to children is absolutly disgusting. It's everywhere...I'm magazines, TV, clothes that are marketed at them, role models (i.e. popstars) etc...
It's sending out the wrong message totally. I don't believe a total abstinance program is the key to controlling underage sex and therefore teenage pregnancy but education.

i am sure i have or you lot also have been,fooled by pinkpoley,in one topic she had her child@17,then in this one she had her child@18,sorry to go off topic,but it make's me mad that other people as well as me try and help people on here,then realise they lie.

quote:

Originally posted by Pinkpoley:

quote:

If you read the rest of the sentance you would have seen that I was referring to people who have children while they themselves are still children, unfortunatly it's a fact that the majority of teen pregancys are amongst the working class population.
I grew up in a working class family and saw many people around me, including my sister fall into the trap of having children while they are young and lack the stability of a long term relationship, life experiences and financial stability to bring up a child.

Excuse me but i find this rather offensive. I had my daughter when i was 18 years old. She is almost 2 now and she is a very well behaved child. I am still with her father we have our own place, he has a full time job and i work part-time. We are in a good financial situation mostly (although sometimes we do struggle). So what exactly are you saying here about teenage pregnancys?

This comming from the person who want's to be a brat,I rest my case. you can be offended all you want my dear.

If your daughter was being badly bullied,she had every right to bunk off or stay away.These unfeeling teachers and jobsworths who chant "you have to go school" make me sick-who was it failed to stop/spot the bullying in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by marktaylor:
If your daughter was being badly bullied,she had every right to bunk off or stay away.These unfeeling teachers and jobsworths who chant "you have to go school" make me sick-who was it failed to stop/spot the bullying in the first place?

Sadly the people who failed to stop the bullying(we tried hard to get help with it) - were ... the head of year, the home-school liaison worker, her form tutor, the education welfare officer ... shall I go on? It's something a lot of schools find hard to acknowledge - and tough to deal with I guess. My partner's a secondary school teacher and she was appalled to see what had happened for my daughter. It certainly opened her eyes to schools that patently don't tackle problems. It's a rough school, in a rough area. I must admit I felt very let down. I always argued that kids should go to their local school but now I often wonder if things could have been better if I'd pulled her out. She refused point blank to move schools and then once she was bunking there was not much point. She's doing well now though - she started a course as part of her job and is really enjoying learning in a different environment. I know there are a lot of kids who don't respond to the class environment but thrive once taught with respect and treated as an adult. I guess that's what she needed.

As I said-good luck to her.My mother let me stay off school a lot-I suppose today the *******s would drag her into court.By the way-if you don't mind me asking,what's her course in?And I can't resist asking-have you been watching Coronation Street lately/