no like i said im very scared of computer i hav absolutely noooooo idea haw to use them but i can set up a pa system and record live music but i cant use msn or nuffink like that and i think its far too late to learn

no one goes on here anymore i wish brat camp was still on it all went right over my head ive only just realised i was in the mirror and loads of papers! how slow am i i missed it all
ive only just bloody noticed this website!

Well Julie I still occasionally pass by to see if anyone has any else to say on the forum so if you want to discuss anything about the program feel free (although if you are not formally verified your posts may mysteriously disappear as happened initially with Poppy’s)

I have not replied to any of your posts so far as I was not sure that you were the genuine article. However I did notice on the program that you were referred to as Julie, not Julia by the staff so you have convinced me.

Regarding your fear of computers. You are never too old to learn – I changed career totally in my mid thirties (after 18 years in a bank) and went to university for the first time. Some of the students thought I was the lecturer. God did I feel old on the first day of term amongst all those 18 year olds.

As to computers I built my first one in 1995 aged 32 and now I work in IT building servers in a data centre. You are only a spring chicken – plenty of time to learn 

I wrote a lot of positive things about you in my post - "fond reflections of the brats” although you of all the “brats” caused me the greatest concern as to your future well being. I was much impressed by your compassion and thought your comments to the camera very deep and mature.

Having reached the advanced age of 42 I have come to the conclusion that, whilst you can blame others for dissatisfaction with your life, only you can change it and the only thing that ultimately holds you back is yourself.

Best wishes

Alan

Hiya alan,
its truly a bizarre thing for someone to disbelieve i'm me! i must urge you to imagine reading that as me its just hillarious. as to computers-you built one?!*?!$*???! thats totally unbelievable, well i suppose not actually but its certainly an achievement and a half. i have to say that when i read your post i was extremely emotional because i know i should have stayed there much much longer. probably the only one not to be "fixed", i'm slowly working it out as i seriously messed up and am still messing up occasionally, but hearing-or reading-the things you said about and to me-and trust i do hear them a lot in my position!-seriously wakes me up and im really grateful for those moments of clarity although they are painful i really want to thank you for your interest and feedback. makes you feel oddly calm when you think you are completely on your own to read such constructively concerned comments! im writing honestly so it might either sound like arse-kissing or arrogance but im really chuffed for all the advice.
im glad to hear theres a sorted person out there and im glad for you that you have made a good thing of your life and not a chore-i hope to do the same by that stage of my loitering on this earth!
i think this website's a little too outdated for anyone to care wether im julie or not cos no ones asked me anything or done anything to my posts which i actually feel quite indignant bout almost like im being ignored!
thanks for your best wishes and the same to you, xjuliex

Hi Julie

I hope I have not upset you with my post – certainly not my intention. As I said to Poppy with whom I have corresponded with at great length on this forum (and as everyone knows of whom I am a great fan), please ignore any comments below which you feel intrusive or inappropriate.

As to you fearing your reply sounding arrogant or *rse-kissing – not at all. It just demonstrates that you are expressing yourself with honesty and with depth. That in itself shows, despite what you may think, Aspen did have a major impact upon you.

One of the (many!) questions I asked Poppy was “Did she feel ready to graduate” and even 5 months after graduation she said “I didn't want to graduate when I did, I still don't feel ready to go out into the outside world... even though I do everyday” So as you can see you are not the only one of “brats” that has doubts.

As to you feeling that you are the only one of the seven not to have been “fixed” I would not look at it like that at all. You may be taking longer than some to discover yourself once again, but that you recognise that there are certain aspects of your life that are perhaps not the way that you would wish is a major step in the right direction.

I’m not sure how things have progressed with you since the end of the series – having read some of your posts (forgive me but I am not very good at interpreting some of the text speak used!) my perception is that there may have been some events that you wish had not happened. If they have, whilst they may be a matter of regret, it is how you respond to them which show the true underlying you.

I would use the analogy of someone who tries to give up smoking. They start out with the best intentions, finding it very hard, but struggle on until eventually in a moment of weakness some weeks or even months down the road (probably in the pub) they succumb and smoke a cigarette.

Some react that by having given in to their temptation once that’s it – it’s all over and they have failed and they resume smoking. Others will see it as a temporary failing and learn from the experience and kick the habit completely. Of course some will have not allowed themselves to be in an environment of temptation in the first place and not gone to the pub.

I suppose what I am saying (in my usual windbag fashion – why use one word when I can write ten!) is that you can control your environment, be it where you visit or with whom you associate.

Rosie’s example of deleting the numbers from her mobile of friends who used drugs and with whom she no longer wished to associate.

Poppy’s example of recognising that her best friend (before she went to Aspen) would be a negative influence on her return and having to sever the friendship.

Georgie’s extreme example having recognised she would succumb to the temptation of drugs if she stayed of removing herself from the environment and leaving the country.

I know from my own life (and believe me I have made many mistakes, despite you thinking I have “made a good thing of my life”) I operate best when I have short and long term goals.

Rosie obviously valued her new found fitness so to motivate herself she decided to run a marathon. I believe (at least from what Poppy has said) that Georgie’s goal is to catch up with her education and go to university so she has focus there.

What are your short and long term goals?

Pick your friends and associates very carefully and recognise that you only get out of life what you put into it.

As I said in my original post of you “I so desperately want her to succeed and make something of her life, as I feel she has so much to offer and gain”.

I mean that most sincerely …

Best wishes

Alan

thank you, alan. you are a very caring and helpful citizen. i understand what your saying. it is often, however, easier to make goals for oneself than to pay them any attention. my short-term goals are to finish college, get off the god-damn drugs, and pay the rent i owe (that ones a bit of a joke!), and my long-term goals are to write, record, perform and produce successful music which people find comfort or happiness or anger or even fear in listening to-not that i am trying to scare anyone but music can actually make you feel these things!-and to be honest they all seem quite beyond my reach. but at least i have them, and have a vague idea of what i am aiming for. i actually really need georgie. Georgie sorts my head out and i cant even begin to explain what a fantastic brat she is. Everyone who met her-not watched her-would only have praise for her. she understood mine and everyones issues (probably because she had them all!) and even when she came to see me and we went for a massive smoke it was almost as though it was okay with georgie because it wasnt illegal, it was sort of sociable. dont really know what i mean by that but georgie probably would. i have so much respect for her and the rest of em because they can just get on with it without contemplating the pros and cons and then giving up alltogether.

i appreciate you saying such positive things to me, because i sort of realise they are true, and not a product of my warped mind.

as to making mistakes-everything i do including the way i walk is a mistake so no worries!

and with having a long-winded way of saying things, I and I alone am the supreme master of that one my friend, and i assure you that you will continuously fail to beat my gramatically incorrect articulation of pointless and unnecessary words.

best wishes, julie

Hi Julie – usual caveat of ignoring anything you consider intrusive or condescending on my part.

Sorry to hear that you are back on the dreaded you know what.

To be honest I suspected as much as soon as I saw you being interviewed on C4 following your return to the UK. Even in that short period of time the change from, if I may be so bold as to express such an opinion, the stunning vision of fitness (in both senses of the word) that you were at graduation to the, err not quite so fit persona was immediately apparent. Of course I may be completely wrong and it may have been that the tan had faded or was it that you had finally been able to wash the ingrained dirt off!

Setting goals is the easy bit, achieving them as you say, is the hard part. Bit like drawing up the exam revision timetable which I always used to be very good at it was the revision I was not! However I did come to recognise that it at least stopped me kidding myself that I could always start revising “next week” and there was plenty of time left to revise. Once the individual topics were listed week by week it became apparent that time was not in abundant supply.

Short term goals and by that I mean daily and weekly goals rather than monthly goals are better as they give you something to aim for in the near future and you can’t kid yourself that you will do it “next week” or “next month”. Long term goals are probably better described as aspirations.

I would actually describe what you consider to be your short term goals to be long term. For example instead of finishing college I would have a short term goal of attending each day this week to study. Instead of “get off the god damn drugs” you might have a target of smoking only one spliff a day rather than five.

Combine that goal with say a target to become physically fitter (I’m a great believer in fitness as a means of improving the mental state). Did you know that the body releases endorphins (best described as you own feel good drug which is free) that give you “feel good” high. It’s a know fact that they can make people addicted to exercise (I’m not suggesting you become a gym bunny!). Once you become fitter that (well it does for me) it motivates me to have a healthy lifestyle – especially when you see the state of some twenty year olds.

I would say that your long term aspiration is to be a singer/songwriter – and good luck to you. Is your main instrument the piano? (I’ve just started the acoustic guitar but am still and the “pling plong” stage)

You have to be aware of your own particular weaknesses. For instance I am not spontaneous and like to plan things I do rather than “going with the flow”. I now recognise this and whilst my innate personality is never going too completely change I had learned to modify my behaviour to be less rigid in my reactions. This allows me to take advantage of and enjoy unexpected opportunities that I would otherwise decline because they were unplanned.

Looking back to my teenage years, I always imagined I would somehow be different “when I grew up”. The thing is, whilst you do learn from experience of life and have to shoulder additional responsibilities (I am now the parent to my parents), you never become that mythical grown up person that you imagined in your youth. I still have the same fears and doubts that I had at 16.

Going off at a tangent for a moment, the concept of what is old is interesting. I have come to the conclusion that “old” it is always at least 10 years older than your current age. My mother (72) things people in the 80’s are old and I’ll be old when I am err 55. I still find it hard to believe I’m 42 as inside I imagine myself to be 25 at most - well until I look at myself in the mirror or gasps up that next hill on my bike  I bet you think 25 is old.

I should really thank you (along with the other Brats) for having had an impact on my own life as I am intending to do things in my forties I would not have previously considered in my twenties. Having enjoyed the beauty of the Utah wilderness from my armchair, I have decided to emulate (with tent!) your experience of Wilderness Trekking and am currently researching a holiday this July to Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming USA for two weeks away from it all out amongst nature (and the bears!). I’ve documented my progress so far and called it “A holiday outside of my comfort zone”. If you are interested it should be not be too hard to find more information about it. All you need is access to Google and include the quotes in the search. All survival tips from an expert like you gratefully accepted.

You are quite right about Georgie. She was amazingly eloquent and her sense of humour (just as her mother said) was never far from the surface. Quite a character and I obviously have not had the opportunity that you did to meet her in person.

That said I thought you were all a really interesting group and from my discussions on here with Poppy I know that what we saw on C4 was only a minor part of the overall process.

Anyway enough of me – I hope I have not put my keyboard were it is not wanted and been to frank. I’m sure having been through Aspen with its experts you didn’t need me to tell you half of this.


Cheers for now

Alan

Ps

Worryingly on the radio they have just listed the signs of a male undergoing a mid life crisis.

Mentioned as possible indications were

Starting to learn a musical instrument (tick)
A trekking holiday (tick)
Buying a sports car (phew no)
Changing career (tick)

Not looking good, looks like I might need therapy as well

pardon me for my opinion but you seem the least likely person to need to undergo therapy. and not one of those stupid thing is an indication of a midlife crisis. i play guitar too. your fingers get really hard from it and you develop these "pads" on the end of them. good luck wih the guitar, i find it much harder than piano and respect you very much for taking it up. although i abuse my body in many ways, i too believe in physical fitness; i eat very healthy food-make sure i have a balanced diet of all the food groups and take supplements too, and get through as many press-ups as i can every day. i also walk everywhere and frankly feel like a slob if i have either eaten unhealthily or not done enough exercise so i perfectly understand what you mean.
there is no way anybody is old unless they feel like it, which actually makes me older than you because since i moved out ive even developed wrinkles from crying and stress and no 25 is not old. my boyfriend is almost 25 and he's younger than me-if that makes any sense at all.
i know you will enjoy your holiday and be completely astounded at the beauty which american national parks have to offer, although i only have experience from utah to assure me of this, i just know youre gonna love it. i wish you a beneficial experiance, and hope that you take something personal from it and use it. the place we were in was GEORGEOUS so i wish you a similarly wonderful place.

thank you so much for writing, you are a helpful and charming correspondant and i am very grateful for your interest
best wishes, xjulix

Hi Julie

It’s a know fact that most men mature much later than ladies so I know exactly what you mean. I probably matured about the age of 27, although some might still disagree that I am mature yet. In my case as I have a twin sister, who matured early, it was particularly obvious that I was not.

It’s also a reason why younger ladies tend to be attracted to older men (that and that they tend to be more solvent, flash cars etc.) Doesn’t seem to have worked in my case – I only seem to attract the pensioners and even then they are not rich widows. But then again I don’t have a flash car and as my mother says they probably feel safe with me (thanks mum!).

I imagine its pretty tough living on your own (without wishing to sound patronising) at such a young age. Life seems to be so expensive these days (and it’s probably cheaper for me living in the North West). The various utilities etc don’t allow much of a discount, if any, just because you are single.

Whilst there are a lot of good people out there, there are also a lot of sharks, so be real careful. I guess you will be much more” worldly wise” than I was aged 17 so will appreciate that there is nothing like a free lunch, there’s always a catch.

Going back to your time at Aspen, reading around you are not the only one to have problems on returning to “civilisation” (I use the term loosely as I think the wilderness may at times be more civilised that our so called civilised cities).

You may be interested to know that I found a book written in the late 1990’s by the author Gary Ferguson about the Aspen Achievement Academy.

It was not written at long range as he actually spent some months out with the groups in the field. I found it very interesting especially the parts about “runaways” that is kids who decide to make a run for it (bring back any memories!) but got much further than the planning stage.

The book can be found on Amazon here http://makeashorterlink.com/?W5382533D and an interesting online interview with the author about the book here http://www.wildwords.net/shout_interview.htm Definitely worth a read if only to compare your experience with earlier participants.

One of the interesting things that came out from the book is that your group was different (I guess you knew that!). Normally Aspen add new arrivals to existing groups already out in the field so that you are not all new and there is peer pressure of existing semi tamed “brats” who have more street credibility with the new arrivals than the instructors. I bet you didn’t know that they used to have mixed groups as well.

A lot of the students at Aspen seem to have significant problems – eating disorders, suicidal tendencies etc. In some respects whilst Channel 4 may have given us a sanitised view of the “brats” problems and I don’t want to underplay the issues you all had, it makes your group seem quite civilised and tame in comparison.

The other thing that I gleaned from the book was the expectation that Aspen did not send participants home, to use your phrase, “fixed”, but sent them home equipped with skills to help them navigate through the various pitfalls of life. I guess if Aspen achieve anything it is that students come to the realisation that only they can change their life and the motivation and change needs to come from within.

There is reference in the book to participants who on their return have gone back to their old ways, but have then used their new skills to overcome their difficulties. I seem to recall a phrase said by one of the therapists on one of the episodes that they have to “fail to succeed” and having read the book I know exactly what she meant.

Thanks for your interest in my trip. I don’t think the back country it will be quite as big a shock as it was for you as I have researched it thoroughly and I know in the main what to expect. That said I’m sure there will be some surprises but then again I’m only sentenced to 10 days in the wild not 70 odd you survived (very impressed by the way – you looked quite at home there by the end).

The planning for my trip is hopefully coming to its conclusion. The one thing I had not realised was the price of flights. Flying from Manchester (my local airport) a return ticket to Salt Lake City seems to cost anything up to about £900 ouch and the total holiday cost with equipment probably near £3k.

The flight is the only aspect of the trip I am not looking forward to. Being 6ft 4 and with long legs I can barely fit into a standard seat so the though of a long flight is not appealing. Still better than going to Australia!

I don’t think the weather will be quite as good as Jackson where it is based is roughly 300 miles north of Salt Lake City and the average altitude possibly a little higher.

One thing I did mean to ask you was did you find camping out noisy, that is the wild animals going about their nocturnal business? I’m very much looking forward to seeing the stars at night in an unpolluted sky and my camera is definitely coming with me, but I was wondering if I needed to bring my ear plugs as well.

Cheers for now

Alan

Ps I have hard pads on the end of my fingers from my guitar, but the steel strings still seem like cheese cutters. Just need to get some nice sounds out of it now rather than buzzing. Like most things in life it’s much harder than it looks and requires perseverance, but I have been going for 5 months now so at least I can tell whether my guitar is in tune.

where we were sleeping, there is no noise at all except the odd russle of leaves. sometimes you can hear coyotes but their pack is usually so far it sounds so distant you can barely hear them. it sounds beautiful anyway. you will find that animals tend to keep away from your camp, they dont like it. i think georgie once awoke with a chipmunk on her foot, but thats extremely rare. the animals are cool-they dont keep you up. when we were on solos (solitary confinement in the wilderness) i woke up and there were three random deer chilly in my campsite. they ran away as soon as i moved but they were so bloody close they freaked the hell out of me when i opened my eyes.
you do realise that you could have bought a flash car with the price of your trip? personally-maybe because i hate cars-i think that is a far more attractive decision to make. a real man should have no need for a vehicular object (car). i also think that with that attitude you would make a great guitarist. and please dont thank me in my interest in your trip because i dont really think i showed any interest at all in it, im merely just really pleased and excited for you that you are about to experience the wilderness. people here laugh at me for being so in love with living outside of 'civilisation' with no synthetic cooking or washing or even sleeping facilities, but i truly believe that to be the ideal lifestyle, although i doubt 10 days is enough for you to get used to it like i did. what i mean by that is; the common misconception is that life in the wilderness is hard, but i would honestly truly like to LIVE there. i mean for ever without 'civilisation'. it is easy. more than that-it is fun, but not after ten days. i only realised this after about 30. i realised that this life was the good life, beds are overrated, so is washing and cooking on a hob. lighters are overrated (although fire is hard it is a good exercise for your arms which in turn is helpful for hiking and knocking people out if they start on you) and frankly so too are people.
given the option i would rather live there.

i have to go now before my mates piss off but i just wanted to wish you luck, hoping you have a spiritually beneficial experience out there. i wish i was going so badly i feel realy jealous now. im going to sulk and eat some chickpeas. it was lovely to hear from you again-as always-and i hope you remain safe and continue to make others feel safe in your presence.

loadsluvxjulix

Hi Julie - I’m back with some gossip and some questions. As usual feel free to ignore any you don’t like.

Thanks for your encouraging comments – I can hardly wait to go!

Well I know you are just going to hate me for this (especially as you have already said you are jealous) but I have found some photographs of the Teton Crest Trail which is the little trek that I am going on and will give you a flavour of the types of scenery.

Details here http://makeashorterlink.com/?L28652A3D and an absolutely stunning photograph of Grand Teton at sunrise here http://makeashorterlink.com/?D27631A3D (which is actually taken from the tourist side to the east – I’m going to the west side). The famous Ansell Adams black white version photograph from a similar location is here http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2A712A3D.

Trip is booked and flight ticket purchased – I fly out of Manchester on the 22nd July. I’m not as hard as you, so shall be staying in Salt Lake City for a night to recover and then off to Jackson for another night in a lodge before hitting the trail first thing Monday morning, until a week Wednesday.

Looking at my flight times I have no idea how you coped with your long flight and drive to Loa, the stress of booking in etc and then being dumped outdoors. I leave Manchester at about 9am and arrive in SLT at approximately 4.30am English time (8.30pm local). Presumably you were all running on adrenaline and then slept like logs.

I’m taking my camera so will be posting my photographs on my online diary (details in my post of the 29th May if you are interested) for all to see on my return as well as my thoughts from each day (delusions of becoming an amateur scribe).

Did I mention there are black and grizzly bears to keep us company? Whilst they are mainly in Yellowstone to the north, the Jedediah Smith Wilderness where I am going has some. Apparently we must not sleep in the same clothes that we cook food in case the bears become confused and chase us! An interesting post by a hiking that was attacked by a grizzly in Yellowstone is here http://makeashorterlink.com/?U54732A3D.

I was wondering what you thought were the highs and lows of your time in Utah. I get the message that you would certainly go back given half the opportunity.

I don’t know whether you had the opportunity to read the comments of Gary Ferguson here http://www.wildwords.net/shout_interview.htm but some are actually quite appropriate to your current circumstances.

There is also a good article written by Charles Siebert a New York Time columnist about Red Cliff Ascent (The destination of the original Brats – Brat Camp 1) here http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y20713A3D which makes interesting reading. Some students were apparently dragged from their beds by strangers (escorts) in the middle of the night without warning, put on a plane and then dumped out in the wilderness without warning – the thing of nightmares?

Do you think going to boarding school (well at least you did according to the program) enabled you to cope more readily than the other “brats” away from home?

Well bye for now.

Cheers

Alan

Ps How’s the tan going – I’ll bet it’s hot in Weymouth, as it’s been 72f up here today.

i hope you have a good time over there. sounds like you need to watch out for yourself i actually have preoccupations right now i have to sort something out quite desperately-my mother i will speak to you soon alan xjuliex

georgie, julia and rosie

yo saf. no one says that any more i think ill start.

I read this forum Julie, I liked you best out of the group seemed to me you probably had issues with your mum that were holding you back and maybe things are holding her back you know what I mean she's partly making you carry some of her problems around and maybe neither of you realise this properly cause its imposisble to spot it when you are so close. Dont suppose she can help it and she loves you to bits ..she might have benefited if she had gone on brat camp (when she was younger ;-) actually i am serious, she looked like a lady with issues and it looked hard on you seemed like you were the only one around to carry them, do you have any other family or doyou have to deal with each other on your own? You are just so valuable and precious to each other. I dont know why I think that just seeing you together and hearing the way she talked and you both acted. I think youre at a hard stage you need to love her and leave her or something???? well I may be wrong this is just my idea so forgive me if I have got it totally wrong about you and your mum ....must be weird having total strangers coming up and telling you what they think about your life. The other thing that caught my atention is about the drugs..... my advice is please get off the drugs!!!!!!!!they are like enemies pretending to be friends and now youve been given the chance you dont need to let em pull you back down into the pit youre not really self destructive underneath are you. BTW what are your songs and music about, have you uploaded anything?

yo. thanks for writin i aint been on here for ages but as soon as i go on it in a depressed state i find im being psycho anylised in a completely acceptable and very welcome way. thanks for your interest. youve pretty much got it right with my mum-i dunno whats wrong with her but i get on with her fine now that i live on my own. i havent uploaded anything because having a non-existant knowlegde of computers i have no idea what that means. im sorta naturally from the wilderness without being forcibly sent there! who are you anyway? you seem sound. i dont meet many sound people any more. im trying to get off drugs-well im not on them at the minute so im doing okay!-but when you get depressed and look around at your dirty carpet and lack of friends its hard not to think of pills that make you feel loved, happy, warm and secure. im alright though. thanks for your interest its nice to hear from you
loadsa luv xjulix

Julie, hey jus a fan, its realy k that you play guitar, i do to and dedicate my life 2 it lol;
the only way to fully enjoy life is to obsess, the clock counts and normality sucks!

Lydia was my fav...

she is gorgeous!