The Times' take on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuckie Black:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
Yes, of course. Just report it quietly to the referee and the authorities afterwards where they should make an example of the offenders.

He shouldn't have to just carry on. Their are certain things that players have evry right to take a sudden stand to mid-match and this is one of them.

It's not easy to just carry on when you are being treated like an animal i would imagine, hence his dramatic reaction. Thats the whole point Bracey, who couldn't just carry on, he had finally had enough! He was put through a torrid time at Lazio at the start of the season and was
said to be visibly upset at the end of the match in the tunnel.

Straws can break camel's backs...

I respect your view entirely. And I detest racism before anyone else suggests otherwise. But is it any worse than lampooning Peter Crouch because of his height? How can abusing a player by virtue of the colour of his skin be so wrong when poking fun at someone's height is accepted as part and parcel of terrace talk?

Whilst philosophically and logically you may be right Bracey, I suspect that the societal segregation of blacks and the discrimination, abuse, violence and death suffered over the last two or three hundred years may slightly outweigh the hurt caused by tall people being called lanky, shorty or beanpole.

I can only think of one instance of tall people being enslaved purely on the grounds of the height (some members of the the Potsdam Giants, if anyone's interested), whereas hundreds of thousands of Africans obviously were.

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:

quote:

Originally posted by Duffman:
I see your point Bracey. But why should he?
Why should he put up with it?
Doesn't he have the right to play football without being racially abused.

Yes, of course. Just report it quietly to the referee and the authorities afterwards where they should make an example of the offenders.

You're suggesting the player is able to pick out the exact group of people from thousands then go and report them and exactly where they were sitting to the authorities after a football match?

Problem is you can take the mickey out of people for all sorts of things but when it comes to being racist you`re trying to say that other races are second class.
In a perfect world no person with a facial disfigurement or any disabled person would go through life without feeling different.Nor would homosexuals,or the women who I work with who has an earpiercing screeching voice.Or anyone who gets repeatedly reminded that they may be different from the norm.
Racism is different it`s caused millions of deaths and there`s wars going on right now because of it.It`s got to stop,you should be able to go to a stadium without feeling like you just stepped back into 1960`s Mississippi.

Good link Leadbelly,

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
But is it any worse than lampooning Peter Crouch because of his height? How can abusing a player by virtue of the colour of his skin be so wrong when poking fun at someone's height is accepted as part and parcel of terrace talk?

I'm stunned!

I've never seen anybody protest against tall people being in our country, calling for all tall people to be taught in seperate schools and socially segregated, saying that tall people are inferior to smaller people and should be exterminated. The list goes on...

Are you feeeling ok Bracey?

But this has nothing to do with it whatsoever!!! Just because a few idiots shout some terrible things doesn't mean that it's the American Civil War all over again. The history is irrelevant. I'm stunned that people think it's OK to make jokes about someone's height and gender but not race. These variables cannot be helped either. It should all be tarnished with the same brush.

quote:

Originally posted by Duffman:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:

quote:

Originally posted by Duffman:
I see your point Bracey. But why should he?
Why should he put up with it?
Doesn't he have the right to play football without being racially abused.

Yes, of course. Just report it quietly to the referee and the authorities afterwards where they should make an example of the offenders.

You're suggesting the player is able to pick out the exact group of people from thousands then go and report them and exactly where they were sitting to the authorities after a football match?

No, not the offending individuals obviously but the contingency from which the abuse is being hurled.

The Peter Crouch thing I don't like and we should look at that too, but he is very different physically and there is nothing we can do to make people not notice it, they will notice him more, you remember a tall person more than a normal person so its not exactly the same as racism, where people have these stereotypes about black people, Peter Crouch is funny looking to some but they think he is a nice bloke, not dumb or a criminal.

Anyway Im tall and black, racism gets to me more than sizeism, atleast people don't look down at me as a tall person...

After much thought and having listened to your views, my stance is changing:-

The real concern is with the likes of th Lazio Ultras because they resemble institutional racism at its worst. This is more than a tiny group of idiots giving verbals. The base has maintained ties to 20th century fascism and the club have failed to make an example of this faction for years. They are a concern because their anti-Semitic, anti-black views are visibly expressed via banners, salutes and insignia. When there are as many offenders as there are on the Curva Nord, that's when it becomes a problem because they exercise political clout not just in the club but across the political spectrum. There is a danger that black people are threatened as was the case in the Civil War, '60s Mississippi, etc. UEFA/FIFA cannot come down hard enough upon them.

But I do have sympathy with Inter because they have no real history like Lazio's of behaving in such a manner. What happened at the weekend wasn't institutional racism, it was cowardly noises emanating from a terrace where the links are not so evident. I guess my ultimate point is that it would be harsh to severely punish Inter given their track record and given the fact that the nature of the abuse can be repilcated by fans posing as the Inter faithful who will turn up just to get the club in trouble. Lazio is a different matter - there is enough evidence there to liquidate the club!

When it's merely verbals, it's all the same be it black players, tall players, fat players or homosexual players. When it's Lazio, it becomes a problem (Capitale 1900, my disgust is with the fans and not Lazio the club. I acknowledge the many good fans. You are one of them).

OK,then you see what I meant earlier in this thread that with Lazio fading away from European competitions etc the focus is shifting onto Inter now.That is where the authorities are going wrong,had many heard of Ascoli or Treviso until recently? It`s this approach "SerieB it doesn`t matter,but if they`re in the top flight then it gives a bad image to Italy!!"

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
...I'm stunned that people think it's OK to make jokes about someone's height and gender but not race. These variables cannot be helped either. It should all be tarnished with the same brush.

No, Bracey. I think you have over-simplified the issue. As chuckie said, it goes far beyond that. The player himself (Zoro) said this:

“It wasn’t an isolated incident, as it has happened to me a few times. This is why I believe the FIGC’s decision to postpone all kick-offs by five minutes this week in protest is a good one. Unfortunately, racism doesn’t only exist in football stadiums. Shopkeepers sometimes look at me strangely, as if they think I won’t have the money to buy goods.”

He was now given the captain arm band and I believe gestures like this also help.

quote:

Originally posted by sms:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
...I'm stunned that people think it's OK to make jokes about someone's height and gender but not race. These variables cannot be helped either. It should all be tarnished with the same brush.

No, Bracey. I think you have over-simplified the issue. As chuckie said, it goes far beyond that. The player himself (Zoro) said this:

“It wasn’t an isolated incident, as it has happened to me a few times. This is why I believe the FIGC’s decision to postpone all kick-offs by five minutes this week in protest is a good one. Unfortunately, racism doesn’t only exist in football stadiums. Shopkeepers sometimes look at me strangely, as if they think I won’t have the money to buy goods.”

He was now given the captain arm band and I believe gestures like this also help.

Point taken. But his argument about getting funny looks from shopkeepers is pushing it a bit far.

As far as I'm concerned, football is wasting its time dealing with racist chanting. As long as there is racism in society, there will be racism on the terraces and there's little that can be done by football to solve a problem that runs in a broader context. It's not the FIGC's, UEFA's or FIFA's job to go stamping out racism. It's something Silvio Berlusconi, parliament and education should solve.

Like I said, Lazio can be decapitated by governing bodies in sport because it's notoriously organised crime. If non-footballing entities finally assume responsibility for dealing with racism then the chanting/booing/obscene noises will eventually cease. Just as other personal remarks towards a player's height, weight and sexual orientation need addressing, education is the answer.

I treat racists as football hooligans; they won't go away despite sanctions imposed upon their teams. They don't care about fines and point deductions because they will carry on as normal, getting the same kicks out of their deviance. Don't punish the teams and the real fans by closing stadia. Like hooliganism, it took Mrs Thatcher's intervention to signify progress. Whilst the 5-year ban was indicative of her ruthlessness in government (and possibly a bit harsh), better police control, stringent segregation of supporters and the move towards all-seater stadia were all steps in the right direction. In Scotland, there have been attempts to integrate Rangers and Celtic fans from an early age. Both have been successful responses from the various levels of government. Football need not concern itself with racist shouts when it's a problem in society as a whole.

Apologies for being a bit long-winded, I just felt it necessary to clarify my position on this issue.

Off Topic- you know the 2nd tallest man in the world hangs around a place not too far from where I live.

Seems like a nice guy...

How tall is he?

I think that the reason the football clubs are being targeted is that they, hopefully, hold some sway over the fans.

Tackling racism is something that needs brave action, not just from authorities who we generally all mock (The FA, FIGC, UEFA etc.) but those who we are glad exist e.g football clubs, well respected fans (which I think are more important in Italy), well respected figures etc.

Racism is unfortunately a cultural thing and it must be tackled more proactively and comparing it to having a pop at tall people, people with big ears, gappy teeth etc. is perhaps unhelpful.

Realistically, I don't think we'll never sort out a having a joke at someone's unusual features (and I'm not sure we should, it's a bit too PC and it's the one joke that unites the world) but to compare it to what's gone on on the basis of skin colour or religion it's nowhere near and shouldn't be compared

quote:

Originally posted by Faisal:
Off Topic- you know the 2nd tallest man in the world hangs around a place not too far from where I live.

Seems like a nice guy...

I suppose he'll have heard most lanky jokes then. Of course, it's a challenge to try and think of some new ones....

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
How tall is he?

He claimed to be the tallest but he is 'only' about 7'5/7'6 I think, so the second tallest when measured but I think some Ukraine has made him third in the world now.

He has the biggest hands in the world and was on the Johnny Vaughn show a few years back, he is a Somalian and had a bullet in his knee so can't walk too far, takes a taxi most places.

You should see the guy eat!

quote:

Originally posted by Leadbelly:
Racism is unfortunately a cultural thing and it must be tackled more proactively and comparing it to having a pop at tall people, people with big ears, gappy teeth etc. is perhaps unhelpful.

Realistically, I don't think we'll never sort out a having a joke at someone's unusual features (and I'm not sure we should, it's a bit too PC and it's the one joke that unites the world) but to compare it to what's gone on on the basis of skin colour or religion it's nowhere near and shouldn't be compared

But things like "big ears and gappy teeth" are biological factors as well. Irrespective of historical tragedies, there can be no variation in severity over making fun of someone's physical features. I'm guessing Peter Crouch would be deemed a "whinger" if he behaved as Zoro did following taunts about his height - even if Zoro came out of it with his head held high and reminding us of the cracks that remain.

I'm also interested as to why religion takes precedence over biological factors other than skin.

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
Point taken. But his argument about getting funny looks from shopkeepers is pushing it a bit far.

I am a 41 year old Black man. I don't look like a gang member, I don't act like a gang member. I don't wear my jeans around my buttocks, wear a baseball cap back to front, walk with a 'pimp limp'. But there are plenty of shops where I can walk in and know that I will be watched until the minute I leave. Clothes, food, chemist, it doesn't matter. If I'm walking down the street and I'm approaching a middle aged woman I'd rather cross the road than have her move away from me and transfer her bag to the side that is furthest from me. Again. I hear car doors in traffic click locked when I walk past.

Funny looks? You don't know the half of it. Who said 'walk a mile in my shoes'?