Ok, I'm sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
Ok, I'm sorry.

No problem, Bracey . You don't know what it's like to be me, I'm not sure what it's like being you. All we can do is try to empathise.

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
Point taken. But his argument about getting funny looks from shopkeepers is pushing it a bit far.

I am a 41 year old Black man. I don't look like a gang member, I don't act like a gang member. I don't wear my jeans around my buttocks, wear a baseball cap back to front, walk with a 'pimp limp'. But there are plenty of shops where I can walk in and know that I will be watched until the minute I leave. Clothes, food, chemist, it doesn't matter. If I'm walking down the street and I'm approaching a middle aged woman I'd rather cross the road than have her move away from me and transfer her bag to the side that is furthest from me. Again. I hear car doors in traffic click locked when I walk past.

Funny looks? You don't know the half of it. Who said 'walk a mile in my shoes'?

I can empathise to a certain extent mate. Just last week I was accused of attempting to steal an umbrella from the umbrella stand outside a small supermarket near where I live.

It happened to be my own umbrella which I was trying to put neatly in the umbrella stand. I am certain the suspicion was raised because the shopkeeper thought I looked more Eastern European than Italian

They got an earful of abuse from me (in Italian)and I won't be going back there soon.

A football crowd is a small cross-section of the society the match is held in. If a society thinks racism is OK, then so will the crowd.

In my only visit to the San Siro (Inter - Chievo last season) I was amazed, stunned, and felt a little ill by the wide-scale abuse Chievo's black players received, including extensive monkey noises. My (then) 7 year old kid looked at me with a worried and confused look, because he's been brought up since a toddler to recognise that skin is only a covering, and doesn't make someone different. I don't want to single out Inter, because obviously other towns have the same problem. The point is, this is seen as acceptable behaviour by a wide (probably majority) range of people who attend Italian games.

The only way to grind this out is by educating Italian society that racism is not clever and is in fact wrong. 5 mins late may seem daft and pointless, but it is another chip at the problem. Keep chipping away and the problem wil shrink and hopefully almost disappear.

Society in Britain in the 70s was the same, extremely openly racist. Have all racists gone away ? No, but they are now in the minority. They by and large keep quiet (in comparison to the 70s British crowd or today's Italian crowd) because they realise their views are out of step. The rest of society have changed their opinion by slowly but surely realising that racism is plainly wrong. Italy (and Spain) must go through the same education process.

Fines / sanctions / points / closed doors are all attempts to force people to be quiet. They don't work because they don't change views.

"Fines / sanctions / points / closed doors are all attempts to force people to be quiet. They don't work because they don't change views."

You could probably argue it actually makes the situation worse, a 'no one likes us, we don't care' type attitute emerges. Bad boys living up to their reputation.

I think the clubs could do far more than they do though. Clubs like Inter say they "do all they can to root this out", they don't stand on the curva with a camcorder videoing the people making monkey noises then chucking them out (with evidence). The stewards, police largely turn a blind eye. I'll probably get stick here, but Italian football is too political, Totti and Cassano go along to some Roma ultra's funeral (I don't know if those ultras were racist or not by the way, before anyone starts, but a lot are undoubtedly violent thugs). It would be like some west ham players going along to some ICF guys' birthday party or something, the clubs and country would go bokners if that happened here.

quote:

Originally posted by interjambo:

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
Point taken. But his argument about getting funny looks from shopkeepers is pushing it a bit far.

I am a 41 year old Black man. I don't look like a gang member, I don't act like a gang member. I don't wear my jeans around my buttocks, wear a baseball cap back to front, walk with a 'pimp limp'. But there are plenty of shops where I can walk in and know that I will be watched until the minute I leave. Clothes, food, chemist, it doesn't matter. If I'm walking down the street and I'm approaching a middle aged woman I'd rather cross the road than have her move away from me and transfer her bag to the side that is furthest from me. Again. I hear car doors in traffic click locked when I walk past.

Funny looks? You don't know the half of it. Who said 'walk a mile in my shoes'?

I can empathise to a certain extent mate. Just last week I was accused of attempting to steal an umbrella from the umbrella stand outside a small supermarket near where I live.

It happened to be my own umbrella which I was trying to put neatly in the umbrella stand. I am certain the suspicion was raised because the shopkeeper thought I looked more Eastern European than Italian

They got an earful of abuse from me (in Italian)and I won't be going back there soon.

Eastern European is not what I would say you look like: more like one of those Viking hords who crossed the North Sea into Scotland, rapin' and plunderin'. Thieving Vikings !

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:

quote:

Originally posted by interjambo:

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
Point taken. But his argument about getting funny looks from shopkeepers is pushing it a bit far.

I am a 41 year old Black man. I don't look like a gang member, I don't act like a gang member. I don't wear my jeans around my buttocks, wear a baseball cap back to front, walk with a 'pimp limp'. But there are plenty of shops where I can walk in and know that I will be watched until the minute I leave. Clothes, food, chemist, it doesn't matter. If I'm walking down the street and I'm approaching a middle aged woman I'd rather cross the road than have her move away from me and transfer her bag to the side that is furthest from me. Again. I hear car doors in traffic click locked when I walk past.

Funny looks? You don't know the half of it. Who said 'walk a mile in my shoes'?

I can empathise to a certain extent mate. Just last week I was accused of attempting to steal an umbrella from the umbrella stand outside a small supermarket near where I live.

It happened to be my own umbrella which I was trying to put neatly in the umbrella stand. I am certain the suspicion was raised because the shopkeeper thought I looked more Eastern European than Italian

They got an earful of abuse from me (in Italian)and I won't be going back there soon.

Eastern European is not what I would say you look like: more like one of those Viking hords who crossed the North Sea into Scotland, rapin' and plunderin'. Thieving Vikings !

I tend to agree with you but as far as I know Italians, in general, don't feel under threat from the Viking hordes. They do feel threatened by "marocchini" and "albanesi" in particular.

It always amazes me when, after almost every robbery, the news report states that the victims said the robbers were speaking an Eastern European language, possibly Albanian.

I just didn't realise Albanian was so widely recognisable in Italy.

Italy's level of backwardness on the race issue is reflected in the fact that they refer to black players as "di colore" i.e. coloured. The fact that this is no longer considered PC hasn't reached here yet

As an aside, there have been Albanian speaking communities in Southern italy for years (sorry for being so vague, I'll have to dig out the paper)

The last time I was in Turin, I was in a cab and we drove past a group of black people. The driver turned, unprompted, pointed to them and said that "they're not Italian, you know"

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:
Point taken. But his argument about getting funny looks from shopkeepers is pushing it a bit far.

I am a 41 year old Black man. I don't look like a gang member, I don't act like a gang member. I don't wear my jeans around my buttocks, wear a baseball cap back to front, walk with a 'pimp limp'. But there are plenty of shops where I can walk in and know that I will be watched until the minute I leave. Clothes, food, chemist, it doesn't matter. If I'm walking down the street and I'm approaching a middle aged woman I'd rather cross the road than have her move away from me and transfer her bag to the side that is furthest from me. Again. I hear car doors in traffic click locked when I walk past.

Funny looks? You don't know the half of it. Who said 'walk a mile in my shoes'?

I know how you feel bnb, I get looks like that quite a bit, especially in Norwich. And it is all about education from a young age. It's good that nowadays in schools kids are taught about all the different religions and are taught generally within a multicultural environment. but even with all this, you are always going to find ignorant idiots here and there.

quote:

Originally posted by interjambo:

Italy's level of backwardness on the race issue is reflected in the fact that they refer to black players as "di colore" i.e. coloured. The fact that this is no longer considered PC hasn't reached here yet

I generally agree with you, but you have to be a little bit careful equating with backwardness with language. "Di colore" actually means "of colour", not "coloured". And in the US, where political correctness originated and took off (and was later exported to Britain) "of colour" (or, in their case, "of color") is actually the preferred way of describing non-white people. ("Coloured" is obviously wrong and unacceptable)

Equally, the word "oriental" which people seem to use liberally in England would horrify many in the original PC movement. To them "oriental" is unacceptable because it denotes a geographic bias (i.e. the Orient is called that because it is East of Europe... implying a certain euro-centrism).

So the point is not to get too hung up on words like "di colore." It's actually politically correct.

Beyond that, I'm totally with you,particularly on the attitude towards Albanians.

Without opening a big can of worms though, I do find it interesting that Albanians (even though they are white) are generally the most disliked, followed by Moroccans and then other slavs. West Africans and Chinese are actually seen as less of a threat, despite the fact that, racially, you'd think they'd face more problems. I wonder if it has anything to do with behavior or perceived behavior. Albanians are generally seen as criminals. West Africans are seen as guys trying to survive in menial jobs.

My missus friend calls herself coloured,I wouldn`t use that word myself.

Shall we ask the royal family what their stance is? What would their advisors say if young Wills wanted to be with an arab who happened to be muslim?

We're all 'coloured'. My colour happens to be Black. Nuff said.

Except when I'm ill: then I go grey .

If i ever went grey i'd freak out!

quote:

Originally posted by zio:
So the point is not to get too hung up on words like "di colore." It's actually politically correct.

But neither black or white are colours so why are black people considered "di colore" but not white? Seems a flawed way to describe black people to me.

What I find strange and annoying is how there are things like Black music radio stations, and black history month. There's even a website called blackbritain.co.uk (nothing to do with Italy, I know). Surely this just increases the conflict rather than preventing it. Imagine if there were radio stations for 'white' music, white history month, and white britain websites. There'd be uproar. Though I obviously support cultural equality and am involved in an organisation which promotes that, such 'pro-black' publicity only generates conflict and highlights differences between colour, and it seems just as rascist that white people are often excluded. Isn't this part of the problem in South Africa??

And Trevor Phillips' calls for black boys to be educated separately from white boys undermines everything for which the likes of James Meredith fought.

Good point, internazionale. We have to pretend as if race doesn't exist.

I already have joined. Everyone here has joined. It's FANTASY football, therefore it doesn't exist. But I'm still happy to see myself firmly on top

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:
Except when I'm ill: then I go grey.

Like ET ? *phones Area 51*

quote:

Originally posted by Capitale1900:
Problem is you can take the mickey out of people for all sorts of things but when it comes to being racist you`re trying to say that other races are second class.
In a perfect world no person with a facial disfigurement or any disabled person would go through life without feeling different.Nor would homosexuals,or the women who I work with who has an earpiercing screeching voice.Or anyone who gets repeatedly reminded that they may be different from the norm.
Racism is different it`s caused millions of deaths and there`s wars going on right now because of it.It`s got to stop,you should be able to go to a stadium without feeling like you just stepped back into 1960`s Mississippi.

Good link Leadbelly,

- if u want to bring the usa into the debate then lets talk about 1995 when millions of blacks in the us cheered ojs acquittal, or this year when crips killer tookie williams was executed on death row depsite the pleas of his hollywood apologists snoop dogg and jamie fox.

if u argue against segregation why is there a black tv channel in the states?

quote:

Originally posted by chelseahibsnapoli:
- if u want to bring the usa into the debate then lets talk about 1995 when millions of blacks in the us cheered ojs acquittal, or this year when crips killer tookie williams was executed on death row depsite the pleas of his hollywood apologists snoop dogg and jamie fox.

if u argue against segregation why is there a black tv channel in the states?

What a load of bo11ox. True a lot of Black people cheered OJ's acquittal. I wouldn't say it was the majority but a lot felt that it was time a black person actually got away with something. Now, if you asked them if he was innocent I'm not sure what their answer would be. How long did it take for anyone to be prosecuted for beating a Black man within an inch of his life on the streets of L.A? I woke up that morning feeling as if I could riot. You realise that to a lot of people your life means nothing. You ever been to some states in America? Remember last year when a Black man was lynched by being tied behind a truck and dragged to his death? Did you hear about the Black man being murdered in New York a few years ago just for going out with an Italian American woman?

If you would take the blinkers off your eyes you would see that having a 'Black' tv channel is, for us, a positive statement (saying that, most of the shows are rubbish but that's something else). It's not saying we are better than anyone else, it's saying we are here and we are equal and we ain't going nowhere. Black music, black tv, black culture doesn't exclude anyone. We were told for so long that 'black was bad white was good' it was time to be proud of who we are.

All I hear from so-called White Nationalists is that the White Man is losing out. Losing what? Who wins in the trade battles? African countries? Who owns most of the world's wealth? Who consumes the most? I'd hazard a guess and say that they would be people of the Caucasion persuasion. I'm not jealous, it's just a fact. Until China and India really get going, that is.

You want to get out more, mix with the rest of the world. We are Black people, White people, Jewish people. Actually there are only two kinds of people: good and bad. Which are you?

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:
You ever been to some states in America? Remember last year when a Black man was lynched by being tied behind a truck and dragged to his death?

What does this prove? A white man was beaten to death with a beer bottle just because his mobile kept on ringing in a bar. A white woman was mauled to death by a dog. You can't single out the incidents involving black people and claim they must be racially motivated.

quote:

Originally posted by blackandblue:

If you would take the blinkers off your eyes you would see that having a 'Black' tv channel is, for us, a positive statement (saying that, most of the shows are rubbish but that's something else). It's not saying we are better than anyone else, it's saying we are here and we are equal and we ain't going nowhere. Black music, black tv, black culture doesn't exclude anyone. We were told for so long that 'black was bad white was good' it was time to be proud of who we are.

IMO: I can't agree with this at all. Sure those aspects you list above may be the intentions of the TV and radio stations etc, but when it's equality we're after it simply goes against all intentions. It's not about black vs white, it's about equality, so instead of making a big scene about black culture, it'd be better to subtly and positively indoctrinate white dominated countries through the media which is starting to be the case with black childrens TV presenters and such like. This way, those stubborn white people wouldn't feel as threatened than if black culture was advertised in his/her face all the time, and feel that they are "losing out" which they obviously wouldn't be.