No it's not! I've gone about this before, so I'll keep it short-ish. You can't claim that the whole situation was all the fault of six or seven naughty boys who led everyone else astray, surely? The fact is employees of many clubs have a lot to do with the general dodgy business, from players to owners. The heart of the problem is corruption, I really don't think you've got rid of that by banning five or six individuals. You're not going to get rid of corruption completely but maybe by punishing clubs hard when they have the slightest thing to do with it will set the right example for the future - instead of basically absolving them of all blame/responsibility and making out that it was that naughty boy Moggi who turned them from their angelic ways

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Petrar:

quote:

If they were guilty, the minimum punishment was relegation. They were all found guilty as far as I'm aware. Roll Eyes

Wait, what exactly were Milan found guilty of. What's really a farce is that in that country, you do not need any hard evidence whatsoever to convict, you need only to be able to read between the lines of phone conversations.

The European Court will rightfully rule in favor of a team that could stand to lose millions of pounds and long-term affects to their fan base on the basis of no hard evidence whatsoever, if it ever comes to that.

Are you sure? Innocent my arse.

Dream on.....

I didn't say that they were innocent anywhere in my post.

I said that the football court's evidence was minimal, and they certainly should have needed more concrete evidence to punish the club.

I think the fact that the punishment handed down has been so minimal (two extra matches at the start of the season against Red Star), as well as an 8 point reduction that is meaningless since Milan no longer have competition at the top of the league table.

quote:

Originally posted by Shaker Beads:
No it's not! I've gone about this before, so I'll keep it short-ish. You can't claim that the whole situation was all the fault of six or seven naughty boys who led everyone else astray, surely? The fact is employees of many clubs have a lot to do with the general dodgy business, from players to owners. The heart of the problem is corruption, I really don't think you've got rid of that by banning five or six individuals. You're not going to get rid of corruption completely but maybe by punishing clubs hard when they have the slightest thing to do with it will set the right example for the future - instead of basically absolving them of all blame/responsibility and making out that it was that naughty boy Moggi who turned them from their angelic ways

Nobody suggested people in Italian football are 'angelic'. But it's very dangerous to start accusing everybody of everything. The system Moggi set up worked because he controlled the top of the Italian FA. Moggi is now gone. The top of the Italian FA is now gone.
Clearly, that is a BIG STEP FORWARD. Of course, if the new heads of the Italian FA turn out to be corrupt (or corruptible) then we haven't solved the problem. But it's a big step forward nonetheless.
As for punishing the people who had "even the slightest involvement" - the Della Valla brothers, Galliani, Lotito, Mencucci, Meani... all these guys were BANNED FROM ITALIAN FOOTBALL. What more punishment do you want?

quote:

Originally posted by zio:

quote:

Originally posted by Shaker Beads:
No it's not! I've gone about this before, so I'll keep it short-ish. You can't claim that the whole situation was all the fault of six or seven naughty boys who led everyone else astray, surely? The fact is employees of many clubs have a lot to do with the general dodgy business, from players to owners. The heart of the problem is corruption, I really don't think you've got rid of that by banning five or six individuals. You're not going to get rid of corruption completely but maybe by punishing clubs hard when they have the slightest thing to do with it will set the right example for the future - instead of basically absolving them of all blame/responsibility and making out that it was that naughty boy Moggi who turned them from their angelic ways

Nobody suggested people in Italian football are 'angelic'. But it's very dangerous to start accusing everybody of everything. The system Moggi set up worked because he controlled the top of the Italian FA. Moggi is now gone. The top of the Italian FA is now gone.
Clearly, that is a BIG STEP FORWARD. Of course, if the new heads of the Italian FA turn out to be corrupt (or corruptible) then we haven't solved the problem. But it's a big step forward nonetheless.
As for punishing the people who had "even the slightest involvement" - the Della Valla brothers, Galliani, Lotito, Mencucci, Meani... all these guys were BANNED FROM ITALIAN FOOTBALL. What more punishment do you want?

it does not matter italian football is irreperably damaged, i wont bother watching it anymore on satellite here in the states (apart from napoli), italian football per se is shite because it has no integrity, it is boring and juventus r turds, ill stick to the premier lge, nba and nfl

quote:

Originally posted by zio:
Nobody suggested people in Italian football are 'angelic'. But it's very dangerous to start accusing everybody of everything. The system Moggi set up worked because he controlled the top of the Italian FA. Moggi is now gone. The top of the Italian FA is now gone.
Clearly, that is a BIG STEP FORWARD. Of course, if the new heads of the Italian FA turn out to be corrupt (or corruptible) then we haven't solved the problem. But it's a big step forward nonetheless.
As for punishing the people who had "even the slightest involvement" - the Della Valla brothers, Galliani, Lotito, Mencucci, Meani... all these guys were BANNED FROM ITALIAN FOOTBALL. What more punishment do you want?

Well, I'm not entirely sure of the sentances but I'm pretty sure none of those guys have been banned for life, it's all things like 9 months or at the most a couple years - I'd have liked them banned for life, personally. I'm a bit unclear as to whether it was solely refs giving dodgy decisions or whether players were involved (as they often are). Obviously if it's just the refs then it's probably right that individuals are really the only ones punished, i.e the refs and ba5tardis like Moggi who organise it all, not clubs as a whole. But if there is evidence players have been involved then I think the clubs should be sent down, to set an example basically. I've read a few books about Italian football and players colluding to fix results seems the norm. The only way, I think, you're going to go some way to putting an end to that is collective punishment. There's got to be a cut off point where you stop just punishing individuals, these people after all are contracted to the club, they're paid by the club etc

quote:

Originally posted by Shaker Beads:

quote:

Originally posted by zio:
Nobody suggested people in Italian football are 'angelic'. But it's very dangerous to start accusing everybody of everything. The system Moggi set up worked because he controlled the top of the Italian FA. Moggi is now gone. The top of the Italian FA is now gone.
Clearly, that is a BIG STEP FORWARD. Of course, if the new heads of the Italian FA turn out to be corrupt (or corruptible) then we haven't solved the problem. But it's a big step forward nonetheless.
As for punishing the people who had "even the slightest involvement" - the Della Valla brothers, Galliani, Lotito, Mencucci, Meani... all these guys were BANNED FROM ITALIAN FOOTBALL. What more punishment do you want?

Well, I'm not entirely sure of the sentances but I'm pretty sure none of those guys have been banned for life, it's all things like 9 months or at the most a couple years - I'd have liked them banned for life, personally. I'm a bit unclear as to whether it was solely refs giving dodgy decisions or whether players were involved (as they often are). Obviously if it's just the refs then it's probably right that individuals are really the only ones punished, i.e the refs and ba5tardis like Moggi who organise it all, not clubs as a whole. But if there is evidence players have been involved then I think the clubs should be sent down, to set an example basically. I've read a few books about Italian football and players colluding to fix results seems the norm. The only way, I think, you're going to go some way to putting an end to that is collective punishment. There's got to be a cut off point where you stop just punishing individuals, these people after all are contracted to the club, they're paid by the club etc

1. I think we need to make a distinction here. I'm guessing at the kind of books you've read (Miracle of Castel di Sangro perhaps?) but what they refer to is something else. It's an accepted practice that, late in the season, if you're team doesn't need the points and your opponent does, you'll basically lay down for them. It doesn't always happen (witness the scudetto Inter lost on the last day of the season at Lazio) but it happens often enough that bookmakers, for example, won't quote odds for certain results late in the season. But that has nothing to do with this scandal.

2. There is no evidence of players being involved in this scandal because, from the hours of phone taps it's pretty obvious that they weren't. That's why not a single accusation has been made.

3. The way it worked is that some referees believed (rightly, as it turned out) that their careers were more likely to advance if they pleased Moggi and his friends at the FA. They did this by awarding marginal decisions to Juve, usually when there were gray areas and it could have gone either way. Over time, this was enough to sway the system.

4. The other thing they did was, in the week before a team was due to play Juve, book players who were one yellow away from a suspension, so they would miss the Juve game.

5. Because there were some referees - Rosetti, Collina, Braschi - who could not be influenced, Moggi made sure they were very rarely assigned to Juve games.

6. That's what this is all about. It was enough to give Juve a big edge (but not a total edge, bear in mind that Lazio, Roma and Milan won titles in the last ten years as well).

7. If you did read a book that says "players colluding to fix results seems the norm", you should probably chuck it in the bin. It's just not true, it's just another stupid stereotype, like the ones chelseahibsnapoli seems to enjoy throwing around.

8. I think we're actually in agreement. You wrote if it was only the refs and people like oggi who organized it all, then the individuals should be the main ones punished. And that's what happened.

Well, Joe McGinnis won't be welcome in Castel di Sangro any time soon, I can assure you of that.

On the other point, "rolling over late in the season", I agree with you. It's totally unsportsmanlike towards other clubs. But then, neither is it corruption...