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Golazo, I agree with you - we have to hope that some good can come of this and the violence at Italian football matches can be brought under control.
I don't know if your suggestions about club ownership of stadia would help. I suspect the role of the police at football matches needs to change completely. Perhaps it is not a good time to criticise them, but too often they seem to have allowed violence to unfold, their only ambition being to contain it in and around the stadium. Perhaps they need more support from the clubs, or more strength in numbers at the stadiums.
Clearly the role of the ultra has to change too. You can't have hooligans wielding such influence with the clubs.
I'd like to see a complete overhaul of Italian football. I am sure the suspension will be lifted by the time Inter face Valencia in the Champions League on 21 Feb, but the combination of the Raciti incident with calciopoli and the financial meltdown across Serie A should mean some kind of government commission looking at a complete overhaul of the game in Italy ready for the start of next season.
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Completely shocking... ive only just read about it.. i saw that the match had been suspended and then went to bed ill..
Like this the few idiots that cause these problems win. Its not fair to innocent people like me who spend money on season tickets.
The new laws were not implemented properly. At the Olimpico they only checked your document for the first few weeks.. i know of people that get into away matches with old tickets...if you are female you are hardly ever searched.. i could easily walk into the stadium with a bomb. Until the police have the balls to go into the stadium and arrest the ultras responsible for this nothing will ever change. The never arrest people here and if they do they are back at the stadium the next weekend. Just look at the Lazio Ultras arrested... they are in prison but at Christmas they were visited by players from both Roma and Lazio.. is that really punishment??
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Whilst the actions last night were truely shocking, I also don't feel that suspending the league indefinitely is the right way to go. It's sad that this has happened now, just as Italian football was beggining to recover from the summer scandals. Incidentally, whatever happened to these strict new police enforcement rules that were put into place last year?
ADP 06/07 - 23 goals
217 not out!!!!!!!!
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quote: Originally posted by golazo: quote: Originally posted by Phonicsdude:
I think you are just repeating the legitimate terrorist argument. The reason why shutting ourselves up at home or not going to certain places is letting terrorists win is because this is what the terrorists want. They act to strike fear into civilian populations.
I dont think it is satisfactory to say that football hooligans behave as they do to call off football matches. Indeed I think to a certain extent, their actions were unrelated to football. Anyone who participates in such vile misbehaviour clearly has a lot of pent up aggression which extends beyond the realm of football.
They do not really hate the people against which they fight and they certainly never intended to call off football matches across the league and for the national side.
Although I do agree that calling off matches for more than a week is unneccessary. I dont see what it achieves..
Aren't these hooligans already winning? Attendances are going down mainly because of them and the only people left in the stadium are 'the home hooligans' and 'the away hooligans'... They clash, violence takes place during matches, Italian football suffers! No?
I said that hooligans weren't trying to disrupt the footballing calendar so suspending the footballing calendar was not "giving in" to them. My claim was a narrow one and I stand by it. You suggest that football hooligans act to deter real fans away from the stadium. Interesting point but Im not so sure. Does ANYONE hane av answer to the following questions: 1)Are football hooligans Italy fans of football who are just ultra passionate OR are they violent yobs who use football as an excuse to batter people/wreak havoc/be racist? Actually this is probably the most important question. The nswer to this makes questions such as "What is the aim (if any) of football hooligans?" and "Is there an effective solution?" far easier to answer. |
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I don't know the answer to Phonic's question, but I have a hunch. In my (limited) experience of observing hooligans in Britain and Italy, I think they are often genuinely interested in football. The handful of hooligans I know socially tend to play football for parks teams as well as go to matches as genuine fans. And when they're older, hooligans often continue to go to games for the football, long after their fighting days are over.
Fighting at and around football games can be stopped, though. The UK is proof of that. If you have the right policing in place, the minority of nutters who come only for the fighting will drift away, and the more moderate hooligans, who like a fight but would not attack people indiscriminately, may continue to come, but will have no opportunities for violence.
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I think a suspension of some type would be a good idea. The widespread hooliganism as we knew it in England only curtailed after 1985 and the events of Heysel, when English clubs were banned from European competition for five years. There were too many fans going to European fixtures wanting to cause trouble, so they were given an appropriate ban.
At the same time, the English government got involved to try to sort out events at home (although basically all Thatcher did was get it pushed out of stadiums and into the streets, where everything is now pre-arranged fighting between organised groups.)
My point here is: England had a problem in Europe - so were banned from Europe. Italy has a problem with control in and around it's own stadia - so I believe suspending the championship until strict measures are in place will go some way to reigning back the control.
The longer people go on saying that 'suspending games wouldn't make any difference so carry on with the campionati' the longer this will continue to happen.
SOMETHING HAS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE - THERE HAS TO BE A HARD LINE
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Since the new laws were introduced 2 years ago only one or two stadiums reach the required standards.. Just like all laws here they are enforced for 5 mins then forgotten about.
Ultras here do not go to the stadium to watch football...they spend the majority of the games with their backs to the pitch and dont see any of the game...they go to fight and usually to fight against the police. These are people that have alot of power over here. They meet players, go to training. When the leader of the Boys died in a bike accident 1.5 years ago half of the roma squad went to the funeral. But then on the other hand the police can be blamed too. At the last rome derby as I walked past the carabineri i heard them say 'come on lets get ready to charge them when they come back'.
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The problem is not with football but with policing at games in Italy. As a Rangers and Inter fan I have attended more Old Firm games than I can remember and have also attended Inter matches against Juve (where I was in Curva Nord with the Ultras) and Milan. I have NEVER seen trouble at a Rangers-Celtic game. The police know how to handle it, and ticketing is dealt with properly. You find any problems go on in the city much later on but that's usually acohol related and not organised thuggery. In Italy I was amazed at how lawless the whole thing is. No police in the ground except the ring of riot cops round the away fans. There is no concept of crowd safety. Curva Nord is jam packed and the time I was there for the Juve game even the aisles were jammed, no one could move - there must have been thousands of fans in there that shouldn't have been. The fact there isn't even proper turnstiles at the San Siro amazed me. They need to get police in the grounds, they need to arrest individuals, they need to ban people from stadiums, they need to get the UK system where bans actually keep you out of the grounds. It works, I know there have been several times during heated arguements at games where I've come close to smacking someone but then realised that hitting some idiot would not be worth never being allowed to attend football matches again. But the problem is that we are not dealing with folk losing their heads in a moment of madness, we are talking about people intent on causing carnage and using football as the banner to do it under. It's like the anti-capitalism riots at every G8 meeting - they become an excuse for the rent a mob folk to cause mayhem and it's the genuine peaceful protestors who suffer.
Campioni d'Italia 06-07
I love Inter for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, till death us do part.
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quote: Originally posted by Roma Girl:
Completely shocking... ive only just read about it.. i saw that the match had been suspended and then went to bed ill..
Not as ill as you will be when your inevitable drumming at the hands of Inter takes place...  |
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I've booked flights and accomadtion so I can watch the Fiorentina v Empoli game on the 25th of Feb. I hope it still goes ahead.
I'm not sure the clubs can afford not to play for too long and the players will have to go on loan abraod or something if they do as they will want to be playing football.
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I hope there is a game for you on the 25th, Snoop, but even if Serie A is up and running again, it may not be Empoli that are in Florence that day. When the league resumes, will they pick up where they left off, or will the postponed matches get shifted to the end of the season?
I think the Champions League will be the key to the length of the suspension. The two Milan clubs and Roma will put a lot of pressure on to ensure that they're able to fulfil their fixtures on the 20 / 21 Feb.
I would bet on a suspension of about two weeks, during which a commission is set up to look into the problems around calcio, which will report in the summer. And in the meantime maybe there will be a ban on away fans.
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This happens every few years in Italy, everyone will come out and say how bad it is and they must take action and change things. A week later the games are back on, a month later everything is forgotten and we move.
Nothing real changes, its easy to stop games for a weekend, its harder to deal with the root causes.
This will pass and a few years later it will happen again, its the same when they say they will tackle racism or corruption. Nothing ever happens except allot of guy in suits paying lip service.
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When fixtures were cancelled at the start of the season in previous years they were moved to mid-week later in the season. If they did go straight to the Parma away game instead of the Empoli tie I expect I'd have to get a bus or train up there!
I agree that the Champions League ties are the key. It will destroy Italian clubs like it did the the British clubs if they can't compete. Celtic fans will do their nut if the game against Milan is cancelled as there are probably a few thousand who've booked their tickets etc. The compensation will make the FIGC bankrupt.
I'm off the Accrington v Chester in a bit, wonder if there will be any riots???
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Unfortunatley I dont think anything will ever change... it will be all back to normal in a few weeks. There is rioting here every week.. people are stabbed every week, you just dont read about it in the international press. The mentality of some is that the killing of the policeman is revenge for the young guy that was killed during the G8 riots in Genoa a few years ago..when you have a mentality like that how are things going to change. I wouldnt be surprised if everything is up and running again by next weekend. I doubt the stadium will ever be a safe place to be over here...you are trapped in the stadium like animals.. i remember i was in curva sud for the suspended derby and they were throwing teargas into the stands and we couldnt get away from it. When we eventually managed to leave we had to run like crazy to get away. Cars were on fire.. it was like a war zone... but the next weekend we were all back at the stadium like nothing had happened....
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quote: Originally posted by Ivano:
Stewards alreayd exist, and, believe it or not, flares ARE ALREADY BANNED from football stadia.
The clubs have to start taking control, but that won't happen until sponsors start pulling out, or TV deals are cancelled.
Yes, I know there was that Pisano rule but its implementation was not good enough. Flares were banned I know, but what I was saying was - why were the fans still able to take them in? There wasn't proper security checks. I agree with PinkandBlack "England had a problem in Europe - so were banned from Europe. Italy has a problem with control in and around it's own stadia - so I believe suspending the championship until strict measures are in place will go some way to reigning back the control." |
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I think things will change. They simply have to or we can forget about the future wellbeing of football in Italy. Attendances are dwindling, and why...? Because the ordinary, law-abiding fans do not want to take their lives into theirs hands by going to watch a football match. The haemorrhaging of these fans has gone past breaking point: either the clubs get control back from the ultrá (and not all ultrá are "bad") or Joe Public will no longer go to games.
The fans can blame police, they can blame Sky, they can blame the clubs for "not caring", but, ultimately, they have to start questioning themselves.
But one point that is not coming over on the coverage on this site is that the security forces have said that unless things change, they will refuse to provide policing for football matches. No police. No football. Its as simple of that.
Sure, I can see everything being swept under the carpet and forgotten about in typical Italian fashion soon, but I sincerely hope not. And I hope you guys that had booked flights and hotels have holiday insurance that covers this and will be able to get your money back...
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A really saddening situation. I agree with them suspending the league because there is nothing to stop another idiot bringing a bomb to a game. It could go off in the stand or be thrown on the pitch. The risk to the public is too great.
I reckon the leagues will start up again in a few weeks with a ban on away fans or worse case scenario all games behind closed doors for a while with TV coverage.
Hopefully the Italian game will sort these problems out, but yet again I wouldn't be surprised if nothing changes.
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Wow, Italian football's reputation takes another loss. You'd think that the fans of two such teams would be celebrating at both flying the highest they'd ever been and meeting each other at the top. The misguided values of many individuals in sport is absolutely horrifying.
siamotornati
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The hooligan problems in Italy have existed for years, and every so often something like this will happen, and there'll be a debate about it. But nothing will really be done, and if it is it won't be implemented properly. The league will probably resume in a couple of weeks once this episode is brushed under the carpet. To fix the problem the authorities need to come down hard on the hooligans by banning them from the stadiums and throwing them in jail for a while. Only then can you start to remove the hooligan element and show that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated.
Forza Juve!!!
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quote: Originally posted by gingeki:
The problem is not with football but with policing at games in Italy. As a Rangers and Inter fan I have attended more Old Firm games than I can remember and have also attended Inter matches against Juve (where I was in Curva Nord with the Ultras) and Milan.
I have NEVER seen trouble at a Rangers-Celtic game. The police know how to handle it, and ticketing is dealt with properly. You find any problems go on in the city much later on but that's usually acohol related and not organised thuggery.
In Italy I was amazed at how lawless the whole thing is. No police in the ground except the ring of riot cops round the away fans.
There is no concept of crowd safety. Curva Nord is jam packed and the time I was there for the Juve game even the aisles were jammed, no one could move - there must have been thousands of fans in there that shouldn't have been.
The fact there isn't even proper turnstiles at the San Siro amazed me.
They need to get police in the grounds, they need to arrest individuals, they need to ban people from stadiums, they need to get the UK system where bans actually keep you out of the grounds. It works, I know there have been several times during heated arguements at games where I've come close to smacking someone but then realised that hitting some idiot would not be worth never being allowed to attend football matches again.
But the problem is that we are not dealing with folk losing their heads in a moment of madness, we are talking about people intent on causing carnage and using football as the banner to do it under. It's like the anti-capitalism riots at every G8 meeting - they become an excuse for the rent a mob folk to cause mayhem and it's the genuine peaceful protestors who suffer.
Reading this has made me wonder, are the Italian authorities surprised that something like this has happened? Is anyone in Italy? Its my opinion that holigans aren't football fans, they use football matches as an excuse for their mindless thugery. I feel sorry for the policeman's family & all the decent football fans that this affects. Forza Juventus.  Scotland 1 - 0 France 07/10/06 France 0 - 1 Scotland 12/09/07 |
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