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I didn't imply that either of you had said violence had disappeared here in the UK. You can underplay the impact of E on the culture of violence at football matches in the early nineties; and I agree it has little to do with lower levels of trouble now. But you seem to have missed my point.
Italy can't or shouldn't merely look to England and copy its treatement of hooliganism. It has to concentrate on implementing measures related to the specific problems there.
The power struggle in Italy is more between the clubs and ultras over control of the arrangments in the grounds. Ultra on Ultra stand offs are rare, sporadic, and usually, have a greater goal; ie diversion, shaming the club directors, internal power struggles in the curva etc.
Removing the power, priviledge and access that ultra groups hold over their clubs will be the most important step in eradicating trouble in Italy.
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quote: But violence in UK society exists. Although not expressed at as much at football matches anymore it has leaked onto the high street. The UK is without doubt the most violent country to go out and socialise at night. Look at our city centres on a typical Friday and Sauturday night . . absolute carnage. I can't remember feeling threatened at all in Rome, Milan or Florence out at night.
You're right violence does exist in the UK but that's not really what this whole debate is about is it? It's about choices, city centres in the UK are nasty places to be most of the time on a weekend night so most sane people I know choose to just not go to them then. Football stadiums in the UK, however, are by and large (can never be totally) safe places to go hence sane people choose to go and what's more take their kids and girlfriends along. A city centre and football ground are very different environments therefore you can't really compare the two. It should be (and appears to be in the UK) entirely possible to police, steward and camera monitor a football ground and it's immediate vicinity effectively so that the violence that could basically just does not happen. I don't think it is anywhere near as easy to do this for a whole city centre area therefore the meatheads can fight there. It's sad but then unless there's a line of riot coppers in every pub in the city centre then violence in city centres is a reality you just have to consider. You don't really have to consider this in the majority of occasions at a football ground. In Bristol at the moment there is a bit of fuss about the cup derbies coming up between City and Rovers. When they played last it was a friendly and even then the police were out in force all over the place and the bill was high. With these coming up a few people are saying why should we pay for it? The thing is it's only a few people - most people surely think well that's the reality, you'll have to pay for it - what would you prefer? A few traffic cops standing on the periphery of a full scale riot twiddling their thumbs or something? You just have to deal with the situation. This seems a reality Italians have failed to grasp with regards to football. |
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quote: Originally posted by spagbelli nerrazzuro:
I didn't imply that either of you had said violence had disappeared here in the UK. You can underplay the impact of E on the culture of violence at football matches in the early nineties; and I agree it has little to do with lower levels of trouble now. But you seem to have missed my point.
Italy can't or shouldn't merely look to England and copy its treatement of hooliganism. It has to concentrate on implementing measures related to the specific problems there.
The power struggle in Italy is more between the clubs and ultras over control of the arrangments in the grounds. Ultra on Ultra stand offs are rare, sporadic, and usually, have a greater goal; ie diversion, shaming the club directors, internal power struggles in the curva etc.
Removing the power, priviledge and access that ultra groups hold over their clubs will be the most important step in eradicating trouble in Italy.
I agree that breaking the link between ultras and club officials is vital. I think it's the key to getting this whole situation sorted out. |
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Backward policing and fanatatical lowlifes are the root causes here.
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quote: Originally posted by Shaker Beads: quote: But violence in UK society exists. Although not expressed at as much at football matches anymore it has leaked onto the high street. The UK is without doubt the most violent country to go out and socialise at night. Look at our city centres on a typical Friday and Sauturday night . . absolute carnage. I can't remember feeling threatened at all in Rome, Milan or Florence out at night.
You're right violence does exist in the UK but that's not really what this whole debate is about is it? It's about choices, city centres in the UK are nasty places to be most of the time on a weekend night so most sane people I know choose to just not go to them then. Football stadiums in the UK, however, are by and large (can never be totally) safe places to go hence sane people choose to go and what's more take their kids and girlfriends along. A city centre and football ground are very different environments therefore you can't really compare the two. It should be (and appears to be in the UK) entirely possible to police, steward and camera monitor a football ground and it's immediate vicinity effectively so that the violence that could basically just does not happen. I don't think it is anywhere near as easy to do this for a whole city centre area therefore the meatheads can fight there. It's sad but then unless there's a line of riot coppers in every pub in the city centre then violence in city centres is a reality you just have to consider. You don't really have to consider this in the majority of occasions at a football ground. In Bristol at the moment there is a bit of fuss about the cup derbies coming up between City and Rovers. When they played last it was a friendly and even then the police were out in force all over the place and the bill was high. With these coming up a few people are saying why should we pay for it? The thing is it's only a few people - most people surely think well that's the reality, you'll have to pay for it - what would you prefer? A few traffic cops standing on the periphery of a full scale riot twiddling their thumbs or something? You just have to deal with the situation. This seems a reality Italians have failed to grasp with regards to football.
- i would be interested to know if the taxpayer foots the bill for policing costs of football (in Italy, England or anywhere for that matter). example - i would hate to think that the taxpayers of the borough of hammersmith and fulham foot the bill for policing chelsea while at the same time transient mercenaries like ballack stroll around for 120k a week. |
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It's getting a bit crowded under that carpet Italians tend to sweep everything under...
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An example of why nothing will ever change.. yesterday the investigation into the suspended rome derby 3 years ago concluded.. the result? It wasnt planned (I was in Curva Sud and I know it was planned) and those Ultras that went onto the pitch got fined... So you get a match suspended and walk onto the pitch and all you get is a fine... things never change...
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quote: Originally posted by paul h.: quote: Originally posted by AndyCardiff:
Paul, do you remember the first game of the 1999-2000 season when your team came down here?
Was that when a helicopter had to land in the middle of a park to stop the fans fighting each other!?
that was indeed. A truly mental day!
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Ninian Park, 1909 - 2010. End of an era
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quote: Originally posted by spagbelli nerrazzuro:
I think we have got to be cautious of holding the English experience up as the paragon of good politics and sensible regulation. The fan and hooligan base are different in both countries.
From what I remember Ecstasy and the Rave culture done as much to eradicate Saturday afternoon violence as state intervention. Firms were turning up to matches loved up from the night before as opposed to being hung over with the sole intent of getting beered up again and having a ruck.
But violence in UK society exists. Although not expressed at as much at football matches anymore it has leaked onto the high street. The UK is without doubt the most violent country to go out and socialise at night. Look at our city centres on a typical Friday and Sauturday night . . absolute carnage. I can't remember feeling threatened at all in Rome, Milan or Florence out at night.
The lad Andy from Cardiff who tried to paint a jocular iumage of the typical Brit hooligan standing toe to toe exchanging fists with his adversary is sadly talking nonsense. Witness for eaxample the cult of stanley knife slashing etc. . . . no balls there. Hide the blade, approach target slash out viciously, and retreat.
Sensible measures need to be put in place in Italy; restructuring of the seating in the stadia, ground ownership by clubs, responsible stewarding and proactive police measures and stringent court sentences.
But let's not get to carried away with assumptions that we have got it all worked out in this country.
I agree with pretty much all of this, apart from the bold. Yes, there used to be a culture of the stanley knife, but never did it used to happen in the same way as in Italy ie on motorbikes to innocent people or ambushes on innocent famoles having a quiet drink. Just ask Middlesboro fans about this from rome last season. Maybe I was romanticising about the 'toe-to-toe' bit, but the fist fights are far more common place than in Italy. Doesn't make it right, but there you go. I think that there is one message coming across from everyone on here though- it is the Ultras that have to be eradicated before Italian football can move forward. If that means the crowds go down initially, that will be a good thing, as the decent fans and families will come back and make Italy a safe place to watch football in
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Ninian Park, 1909 - 2010. End of an era
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quote: Originally posted by AndyCardiff:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spagbelli
The lad Andy from Cardiff who tried to paint a jocular iumage of the typical Brit hooligan standing toe to toe exchanging fists with his adversary is sadly talking nonsense. Witness for eaxample the cult of stanley knife slashing etc. . . . no balls there. Hide the blade, approach target slash out viciously, and retreat.
Sensible measures need to be put in place in Italy; restructuring of the seating in the stadia, ground ownership by clubs, responsible stewarding and proactive police measures and stringent court sentences.
But let's not get to carried away with assumptions that we have got it all worked out in this country.[/QUOTE
I agree with pretty much all of this, apart from the bold. Yes, there used to be a culture of the stanley knife, but never did it used to happen in the same way as in Italy ie on motorbikes to innocent people or ambushes on innocent famoles having a quiet drink. Just ask Middlesboro fans about this from rome last season. Maybe I was romanticising about the 'toe-to-toe' bit, but the fist fights are far more common place than in Italy. Doesn't make it right, but there you go.
Ask the innocents of Heysel or of Hillsborough, and I think you'll sse that British hooliganism has been and still is totally ruthless and cares not whether innocents are mixed up or not. In fact if you follow any of the coverage/anaylsis of England's International hooligan following, they will be first to admit that smashing up a fairly decent bunch of fgolk in order to kick start a riot is a perfectly valid tactic. |
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Apparently, all footie will be back on as normal next weekend, but with a stricter enforcement of Piasanu's legislation that was brought in at the beginning of the season. Caused absolute chaos at grounds with some people not getting in until half time etc. . . .
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quote: Originally posted by Roma Girl:
An example of why nothing will ever change.. yesterday the investigation into the suspended rome derby 3 years ago concluded.. the result? It wasnt planned (I was in Curva Sud and I know it was planned) and those Ultras that went onto the pitch got fined... So you get a match suspended and walk onto the pitch and all you get is a fine... things never change...
But wouldn't they have to be charged under the old laws! So how does that prove that nothing has changed? They are discussing the new laws today. |
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Torino President Urbano Cairo - “With regard to us, we have been paying for 330 stewards for each Torino game. I don’t think we can do much more than that,”
I assume Cairo was born yesterday, does anybody know?
Even in slightly agressive confrontation between two supporters, i doubt stewards would want to get involved since they have no arresting power and get Euro40 per game. Why would they even want to consider getting hit not to mention putting their lives on the line when a fully planned riot ensues.
Cairo would be better advised to say something constructive or don't say anything at all, instead of reminding us that he has prove that he takes out 'token' measures to cover his own ass.
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quote: Originally posted by spagbelli nerrazzuro:
Ask the innocents of Heysel or of Hillsborough, and I think you'll sse that British hooliganism has been and still is totally ruthless and cares not whether innocents are mixed up or not. In fact if you follow any of the coverage/anaylsis of England's International hooligan following, they will be first to admit that smashing up a fairly decent bunch of fgolk in order to kick start a riot is a perfectly valid tactic.
Heysel was over 20 years ago and it's unfair to bring that into it when, in fact the Italian hooligans are far worse now in terms of missile throwing, etc is concerned, and it looked to me that there were plenty of innocents probably caught up in Friday nights little incident in Sicily. I have followed England's progress away and, considering the numbers they take to away games, the amount of trouble actually caused at games is very, very little now. They have been consistently the best supported team at any competition, the home nation aside, for the past 13 or 14 years, and the amount of trouble? Very little. The amount of innocents caught up in any England trouble away? Very few. One only has to mention Palermo and Rome to West Ham and Middlesboro fans and I think your argument is dead in the water. Now, they're recent events, not nearly a 1/4 of a century old ones
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Ninian Park, 1909 - 2010. End of an era
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Was Hillsborough a hooliganism issue?
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni L:
Was Hillsborough a hooliganism issue?
No, Hillsborough had nothing to do with hooliganism: a lot of fans were delayed on the motorway and, at the time, it was not common place to delay kick-off in such cases. The game kicked off as scheduled, with many of the fans still outside. The police ordered the gates keeping fans out to be opened, and the fans rushed into the nearest section, which became overcrowded. Images of Hillsborough and the Bradford fire are often shown on Italian TV when they talk about hooliganism, but neither had anything to do with the phenomenon. However, both tragedies led to the Taylor Report. |
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Could Fridays events have the same effect on Italian football as those two did on football in this country? They should really, as they made people wake up to what was occurring at certain grounds
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Ninian Park, 1909 - 2010. End of an era
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni L:
Was Hillsborough a hooliganism issue?
errrrmmmmmm......... |
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quote: Originally posted by Bracey: quote: Originally posted by Giovanni L:
Was Hillsborough a hooliganism issue?
errrrmmmmmm.........
Well, no. It wasn't, it doesn't take any thinking about
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Ninian Park, 1909 - 2010. End of an era
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