Pleasent! No point in walking around with your eyes shut.

As regards appropriate or relevant, someone in the Hillsborough argumentive discussion can answer that

So, what has really changed then? Nothing! So much for "indefinate" suspesnion of football!

quote:

Originally posted by Ivano:
So, what has really changed then? Nothing! So much for "indefinate" suspesnion of football!

Here, here. The presidents talking about going on strike should be ashamed of themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by spagbelli nerrazzuro:
CUCKOO CUCKOO CUCKOO

What planet? Germany was awash with active units of English hooligans. Banning orders removed the high element of structure and control normally excersised in English hooliganism. However, first hand reports from the German authorities evidence that the main instigators of trouble at the World Cup 06 were followers of England. There was even an undercover sting by C4 TV unit! Proof that violence was widespread, involved sporadic and violent attacks on opposing team fans (including randomly throwing beer bottles and beer glasses into crowded shopping areas), women and people from minority backgrounds.

Your next post is going to blame the German bars for selling alcohol and vigorous policing by German authorities.

This holier than thou philsophy you are following . . . in my opinion doesn't hold up and is in fact typical of an anglocentric viewpoint. Look at us we sorted it out, we have the best stadiums, we have the best football (not)!. My original point stands that Italian hooliganism will not be cured in the same way as English. In some quarters the Catania v Palermo riot is now being cited as a deliberate smokescreen created to deliberately target Ispettore Raciti. Raciti was main witness in a court case involving a head Catania ultra. Reeks of a specific hit engineered by dark forces who still have huge power in Italy.

Any AndyCardiff would suggest that you're Welsh (huge presumption) what are doing sticking up for the English?

No need for this cuckoo nonsense, pal, I thought we were having a decent argument til that. What was all that about????

First off, I was actually out in Germany and saw no trouble there whatsoever. Nothing. I was in Hamburg, and the people there, German people, I hasten to add, said the only trouble they saw was between Germans and Poles when the two teams met the night before. Predictable really, and they said that the English people they met were great people who they'd have no hesitation in welcoming back.

Active units of English hooligans!!!!! I take it you've got that Panorama programme on tape, have you? The ones with the chavs acting like idiots, stealing someones flag and abusing a Brazilian girl? Hardly the work of hooligan gangs was it? More like drunken wannabes.

And the only aggro they did show were German fans going looking for English hooligans, and meeting them, and meeting their match. Or biting off more than they could chew, to be precise. OK, there were active hooligans there, but there were more arrests from other countries' fans than the English.

And the throwing of bottles and glasses into innocent shoppers. Where the hell did that happen? You must have some sort of 6th sense to have seen something no-one else did. why make things up to back up an argument you may have, I have used facts all along. I could say cuckoo, but that would make me look a fool, like it has you. There was sporadic outbreaks of trouble, but only between German and english fans after games, and that was because the authorities let them march past each other instead of keeping them apart.

I will not blame the Germans for selling anyone lager at any time. Like I said, I was out there and have the utmost respect for the German people. But, in these stand offs, the German 'hooligans' were as much to blame as anyone and were quite happy to engage the English in a game of street brawling. If the English and German fans hadn't been in these places at the same yime, nothing would have happened. I know it's Germany they were in, so German fans were always going to be there, but I mean the hooligan element. Being there myself, I saw many English fans and no incidents of trouble, so isn't this a coincidence somewhat?

I have no holier than thou attitude and I am quite happy to discuss this in an adult manner but if you want to resort to childishness, we can do it once you've finished school. And, yes I'm Welsh, but you know nothing of my personal circumstances, so you can't comment on why I'm sticking up for the English. So, I'll tell you what, go back and watch panorama again, with its sensationalist stories, and then take a measured view of things. And undercover sting? You've been watching too much Donal McIntyre as well.

I am aware of the reports of deliberately targeting the policeman in question, butby saying this is the only reason for the riot is pretty much trying to deflect any problems you have in Italy. we've got our house in order, Italy should follow our lead and sort theirs out

quote:

Originally posted by Curva Fiesole:

quote:

Originally posted by Shaker Beads:
I don't have a copy of the Taylor Report to hand so you'll have take Wikipedia as a reference but here you go...

"The Taylor Report however stated that official cause of the disaster was the failure of police control"

And Wikipedia is such a reliable source of unbiased information. I could go on and edit that article anyway I wanted to.

I take my opinion from a friend (a Liverpool fan) who was there on the day. I'm not suggesting that anyone deserved to die and that the police and Sheffield Wednesday were not to blame - however, the storming of the gates did contribute towards the tragedy.

Nothing more to add. The police opened the gates so what would responsible people do?

Seems a 17 year old has been arrested for the murder:

http://www.repubblica.it/2007/02/sezioni/sport/calcio/s...ini-diciassette.html

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:


Nothing more to add. The police opened the gates so what would responsible people do?

Read the Justice Taylor's interim report (the full report doesnt address the crowd issues) which was taken by police vetted witness accounts (so not all accounts, just the 'reliable ones'). Nowhere does it mention people 'storming the gates'. The worst it mentions is that drunkeness added to the confusion and that someone threw a beer can at a policeman trying to see what was happening from a better vantage point.

If you read the report you will see that the stand was already dangerously full BEFORE they even opened the gates. The police opened because they were scared of people getting crushed outside. It shouldnt have taken a genius to realise that opening them up would push the problem to inside the ground. All because they didnt want to delay kickoff. The police had no real way of communicating with each other let alone the crowd. Anyway read before making Sun newspaper type comments.

One simple thing would have prevented the Hillsboro disaster- an all ticket game. Even with terracing, there would have been no crush and there would have been no need to do away with them in the first place

They have now banned night matches. All matched will be at 3pm. Im glad - I'm fed up with Roma always playing at night... Just a thought.. with the ban on selling blocks of away tickets... will there be no Laziali at the next derby.. Roma-Lazio.. how will that work?!

It goes from bad to worse: now the players are threatening to go on strike next weekend if some games are played behind closed doors and some open to the public.

When everyone gets their act together, can someone please organise A STRIKE FOR THE FANS...? These clubs need a good kick where it hurts - their pockets, and, ultimately, only the fans have the power to do that.

The players want the season ticket holders to be allowed in. Lets face it. its italy...the stadiums will get around these laws within a few weeks anyway. I doubt the players will really strike.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:


Nothing more to add. The police opened the gates so what would responsible people do?

Read the Justice Taylor's interim report (the full report doesnt address the crowd issues) which was taken by police vetted witness accounts (so not all accounts, just the 'reliable ones'). Nowhere does it mention people 'storming the gates'. The worst it mentions is that drunkeness added to the confusion and that someone threw a beer can at a policeman trying to see what was happening from a better vantage point.

If you read the report you will see that the stand was already dangerously full BEFORE they even opened the gates. The police opened because they were scared of people getting crushed outside. It shouldnt have taken a genius to realise that opening them up would push the problem to inside the ground. All because they didnt want to delay kickoff. The police had no real way of communicating with each other let alone the crowd. Anyway read before making Sun newspaper type comments.

So that makes it alright then?

quote:

Originally posted by AndyCardiff:
One simple thing would have prevented the Hillsboro disaster- an all ticket game. Even with terracing, there would have been no crush and there would have been no need to do away with them in the first place

It was those hideous fences at the front of the ground that had to go but the game has since moved on. Technology and communication is a lot better as well.

I lived in Sheffield at the time and remember going down to the Leppings Lane End to put some flowers down the following day with my Mum. It was hard to believe that the carnage on the TV was going on a stone's throw away from our house. One of my school teachers was a Forest fan at the other end of the ground that day and has never been back to a football match since.

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:


So that makes it alright then?

Since you arent going to read it and obviously cant back down from being wrong I shall leave the words of the late Justice Taylor. I am sure he was saying it was 'alright then' .

quote:

Was Drunkenness a Major Factor in the Crisis at the Turnstiles?
196. Of those who arrived at 2.30 pm or after, very many had been drinking at public houses or had
brought drink from home or an off-licence. I am satisfied on the evidence, however, that the great majority
were not drunk nor even the worse for drink. The police witnesses varied on this. Some described a high
proportion as drunk, as "lager-louts" or even as "animals". Others described a generally normal crowd with an
unco-operative minority who had drunk too much. In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss
of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were
youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating
the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay
and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in
describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all
anxious to gain entry. There was no criticism of the crowd by any of the witnesses in the period up to 2.30 pm
or even 2.35 pm. What happened then was not a sudden deterioration in the mood or sobriety of those
assembled there. No doubt those coming behind would have had more to drink and would have included the
unruly minority. But the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined
turnstile area and its very density hampered its passage through the turnstiles.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:

quote:

Originally posted by Bracey:


So that makes it alright then?

Since you arent going to read it and obviously cant back down from being wrong I shall leave the words of the late Justice Taylor. I am sure he was saying it was 'alright then' .

quote:

Was Drunkenness a Major Factor in the Crisis at the Turnstiles?
196. Of those who arrived at 2.30 pm or after, very many had been drinking at public houses or had
brought drink from home or an off-licence. I am satisfied on the evidence, however, that the great majority
were not drunk nor even the worse for drink. The police witnesses varied on this. Some described a high
proportion as drunk, as "lager-louts" or even as "animals". Others described a generally normal crowd with an
unco-operative minority who had drunk too much. In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss
of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were
youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating
the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay
and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in
describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all
anxious to gain entry. There was no criticism of the crowd by any of the witnesses in the period up to 2.30 pm
or even 2.35 pm. What happened then was not a sudden deterioration in the mood or sobriety of those
assembled there. No doubt those coming behind would have had more to drink and would have included the
unruly minority. But the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined
turnstile area and its very density hampered its passage through the turnstiles.

Thanks, that's all I needed!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ivano:
It goes from bad to worse: now the players are threatening to go on strike next weekend if some games are played behind closed doors and some open to the public.

When everyone gets their act together, can someone please organise A STRIKE FOR THE FANS...? These clubs need a good kick where it hurts - their pockets, and, ultimately, only the fans have the power to do that.

As long as the Milan players go on strike when they're supposed to be playing Celtic i'll be quite happy.
I hope common sense prevails and Milan opt to play the game as close to Milano as possible. There are 15,000 Celtic fans expected in Milano for the champions league game and any reckless decision by the Italians deserves to be punished severely, they cannot be allowed to ride rough shot over so many supporters who have spent hundreds of pounds booking up for this event. If they do, they deserve to be banned from European competition.

quote:

Originally posted by Pa'Dee:
"“When the turnstiles and security checks for numbered tickets are in place, the stadiums can be opened up to only season ticket holders. Speaking to some clubs, I have been told this work can be completed in around a month.”


This does not include the San Siro, as it’s predicted the required work to install turnstiles cannot be completed before September, so Milan and Inter risk playing the rest of the season – perhaps including their Champions League games – behind closed doors".

From the Gazzetta the San Siro will be opened but with restrictions, meaning the closure of certain sections of the ground and perhaps a limit on attendance.

Andy beautifully written retort. I think we will have to agree to disagree. So if you'll accept a gentlemanly shake of the hands we can put this one to bed and move on. Paul H probably has a point.

Still don't get why a Welshman is sticking up for the English? Don't know your personal circumstances . . . or your Italian team. So go on spill the beans.

quote:

Originally posted by Pa'Dee:
"“When the turnstiles and security checks for numbered tickets are in place, the stadiums can be opened up to only season ticket holders. Speaking to some clubs, I have been told this work can be completed in around a month.”


This does not include the San Siro, as it’s predicted the required work to install turnstiles cannot be completed before September, so Milan and Inter risk playing the rest of the season – perhaps including their Champions League games – behind closed doors".

From the Gazzetta the San Siro will be opened but with restrictions, meaning the closure of certain sections of the ground and perhaps a limit on attendance.[/QUOTE]

The main concern at the San Siro is not the lack of turnstiles but the chaotic and unruly seating arrangements. The authorities are heavily pushing for one ticket one seat, with clear access to the stairwells and ALL emergency exits kept clear. Anyone who has been to the San Siro will understand the sense in this. At one Inter match I swear I could feel the whole of the curva nord swaying under my feet. Overcrowding on that day was a real problem. Someone had a go at me coz I was in "their" seat, yet my seat was undersiege from about forty people. It was a tremendous atmosphere, but I've got to say the health and safety aspect of it did worry me.

The authorities in Italy have come up with a grading system:

1. Acceptable
2. Nearly acceptable
3. Work in progress (San Siro)
4. Project approved
5. Reduced capacity

Grounds in the top three categories will be open to the public at the weekend, some with limitations). Grounds in the last two categories are under threat of a closed doors policy.

Players on strike!
Someone better tell them they don't get paid when they strike, that'll soon shut them up.

Where does it say that they are 'thinking' of going on strike, and did they get a headache at the time?