Dear All,

We are discussing the programme tonight after the third and final part of this documentary with the Producer and Channel 4 Commissioner.

Please visit tonight at 9pm to join the discussion.

C4 Communities

I am new to the C4 forum, and I was so looking forward to the 9pm live debate..... but all I could access was the questions, no TV makers, or answers to questions. Can anyone help me? how do I access the online live question and answer debate. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.

well ragh changed his tune in the last ep-rejecting powell's vision in favour of something more positive.
a real rope a dope.

Powell is an easy target - he's dead and can no longer answer back. 40 years from now, will anyone quote Raghi Omar? I doubt it. Whose views does he represent anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by Rich1:
Hi, Peegee
Why can't the uk be a bit more like Oz. I believe the last in the series is on C4 tomorrow but there are links to previous programmes on the dispatches web site.

G'day, Rich1; quite a few Americans & Canadians have asked me/the Aussies the same thing. Basically, "we" asked if "we" could emigrate to "their" country i.e. Australia, the country "they" built from nothing in less than 200 years(when we arrived in 1967). The Australian Immigration makes/made all of us undergo medical examinations, police checks, and in some cases, financial status before being accepted as migrants. We "Ten Pound Poms" were given no more than basic accomodation, very little if any advice & guidance, and NO welfare hand-outs. It was very much like a "Stand on your own two feet, or fall over; and don't expect anyone to pick you up" attitude. I very much doubt if the British migrants expected anything much different, to be honest.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnstone:
Powell is an easy target - he's dead and can no longer answer back. 40 years from now, will anyone quote Raghi Omar? I doubt it. Whose views does he represent anyway?

powell never anticipated the effect of globalisation on immigration so his words mean even less now than they did.

There was a time when a minority of British people said that if immigrants did not like the UK then they could always leave - this is obviously small minded and offensive. However, for Rageh Omar to suggest in his conclusion of part 3 that if the British born population did not like the UK anymore, then they could always get on a plane to another country is outrageous and equally if not more offensive.
To get a healthy and sustainable community, just look at successfull immigration policies of other countries such as New Zealand, Australia, the Carribean etc - limit numbers and professions to requirements, a confirmed job offer is a requirement of entry, operate a points system, in many Caribbean countries jobs are only offered to none nationals where it is proven that the post cannot be filled by a national, the post is readvertised every year or so to enable nationals to apply for the post etc etc. An open door, uncontroled and unrestricted policy that the UK operates is unhealthy and chaotic and encourages an unstable floating population with differing expectations. This is unstable for all sectors of the community. Rageh Omar missed the big picture with a misguided and weak conclusion. Better solutions exist for everyone, but unfortuneately not in the UK.

a letter from today's newstatesman-

"Enoch: no joke

Darcus Howe is right to remind readers and reporters who were not around at the time (Columns, 21 April) of Enoch Powell's deep racism. Perhaps the most offensive line in his racist diatribe was the reference to a mythical constituent: "When she goes to the shops, she is followed by children, charming, wide-grinning piccaninnies. They cannot speak English." No reporter could find this woman, and the neat Asian children of Powell's Wolverhampton spoke English like anyone born here does.

In 1968 the Conservative Party punished Powell for using the word "piccaninnies" and editors such as William Rees-Mogg in the Times thundered about how use of such language was unacceptable. Now the Conservatives have another candidate, for mayor of London, who has casually used the same expression - "piccaninnies" - but it is all seen as a bit of a joke.

As with the rehabilitation of Powell by writers who are too young to have experienced the awful racism the man unleashed, the Conservatives, who once banished a politician for offensive racist language, now think it is OK. Times and politics change. But for the better?

Denis MacShane MP
House of Commons
London SW1"

I have found the Dispatches programs on immigration very interesting as they have been very honest and unbiased.Its strange though that there have been several comments attacking the programs as if anything that doesn't praise immigration massively is seen as somehow wrong or even racist.I assume this is a tactic by pro immigration groups to close down discussion on the issue and scare people off as its worked so well in the past.

Channel 4 has to make programs of this sort as balance to the BBC which is so left wing and biased it has never made any programs that don't massively promote immigration.The BBC might as well be the mouthpiece for the Labour party.

quote:

Originally posted by hoople99:
I have found the Dispatches programs on immigration very interesting as they have been very honest and unbiased.Its strange though that there have been several comments attacking the programs as if anything that doesn't praise immigration massively is seen as somehow wrong or even racist.I assume this is a tactic by pro immigration groups to close down discussion on the issue and scare people off as its worked so well in the past.

Channel 4 has to make programs of this sort as balance to the BBC which is so left wing and biased it has never made any programs that don't massively promote immigration.The BBC might as well be the mouthpiece for the Labour party.

if you only watched the 1st 2 eps then it must have confirmed anti immigration point of view but the last ep showed the shape of immigration has changed aways from matters of race thanks to globalisation and technology.

quote:

Originally posted by Arek:
Dear Sirs/Madame

I write to complain in the strongest terms possible about last night's „Immigration: The Inconvenient Truth”
documentary shown on Channel 4. In opinion of Polish people living in
UK, this documentary programme was irresponsible, poorly researched and
casted aspersion on Poles.

As any kind of racial
intolerance in UK is illegal, broadcasting such programmes clearly
encourage Britons to racial abuse. There has been several incidents of
racial character where we were the victims including a murder based on
nationality and violent attacks. This sort of thing happens quite
regularly and we are fed up with making complaints about stereotypical
comments about us in words that we find racist or offensive.
Furthermore, the programme was not telling the truth, and I strongly
believe it will make things worse and as such will not help with
integration of immigrants.

I think it is a great shame on british television.

Yours faithfuly

Arek

Dear Arek,

I agree with you wholeheartedly . I have been living in Britain for 15 years and I am shocked and saddened by the amount of negativity directed towards Poles here in the recent years and the excuses such program immediately create to instigate abusive and unjust comments towards us. If there is any petition to the government to be singed I definitely would like to join in.

I am also a British citizen and as such I should have a right to feel safe and secure no matter which country I originally come from. I will always feel proud and love Poland because that is where I have spent my childhood and teenage years and no one has any right to take it away from me.

Please do notify me if there is any formal letter to sign, I shall inform my mother and my aunts who are also British and all my Polish/British friends who feel exactly the same as well as my British friends who feel for us, they all will be happy to join in.

I extend my deepest regards and sympathies to all the Poles who are currently in Britain.

UNITED WE STAND.

Adriana

POLE + POLE = SOLIDARITY

It amazes me why people who are so against Britain do not go back to their Home Country...I know I would if I felt the anger that I read in these posts...almost physotic...very worrying

I actually symphasise with all of you because the Goverment has brought us to this situation, no one else

I agree with you bagel queen! I wish every bloomin person who is anti-Britain and bitter about this country would just go to wherever they feel it would be better to live! The fact that so many don't must surely mean that it really isn't so bad afterall!
And I agree with you again, the government is "totally" to blame for letting things get so completely out of control!
Invest in education to equip our kids with the skills for the jobs that need filling. Help the unemployed into work, supplement low incomes to make work worthwhile, offer training to help folk improve their prospects.
In short this government needs to invest in it's people instead of ignoring those who have lived here all their lives whilst throwing the doors wide open to immigrants!
And we need to stop apologising for our culture! St Georges Day went by without so much as a whisper this week. It must be possible to be proud of England and Britain without cowering in embarrassment. And before someone mentions the slave trade which of course was an awful period in histroy please remember that Africans were enslaving each other for generations before the international trade was established and hey they still treat eachother disgracefully today! No nation can clame to have an unblemished past! Britain has a lot to be proud of!

just cos you disagree with some of what goes on in the country you are based in does'nt mean you hate the place.
governements both local and national going back decades are to blame for not dealing with fallout of mass immigration created by globalisation but reaping the benefits that come with it.
helping to strengthen the economies of the countries the majority of migrants come from would be a logical step but that would make these countries potential rivals in the world market place and the west would'nt want that.

also how you suppose to celebrate st george's day anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by antonyD:
also how you suppose to celebrate st george's day anyway?

how do you think it should be celebrated?

quote:

Originally posted by Joanna Z:
We all know the truth. I think that majority of people complaining about immigrants are unemployed because they choose to live like that.

Everybody knows that if you want, there are dozens of institutions that can help with finding job moreover they even paying for education and courses.

So saying that Poles came to Britain and are taking peoples jobs is a misunderstanding. It is a good reason to start a public debate and find out if the issue really exists. In my opinion hard working Poles are paying taxes for those living of benefits for all they lives and we shouldn't judge them because of a few accidentally happened events.

Well said. There is so much open racism in media in this country that it scares me. When will people realise this and change it?

darcus howe on how to treat the new wave of immigrants-

http://newstatesman.com/200805010021

newstatesman on b.n.p support at -

http://newstatesman.com/200805010015

happy international worker's day!

The incovenient truth is, that wherever we live in this world, that we do not HAVE to "Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself"; and if the incovenient truth again be known, not many people do. To-day's society is so reclusive, inward looking, and dare I say it, running scared? At best, society tolerates its "own", is wary of "outsiders", and strongly objects to "non-indigenous" people who, "when in Rome, refuse to do as the Romans do". The "Indigenous Society" is also highly offended by the majority of the people elected & financed leaders & government respresentatives & civil servants who label them as racists in defence of the "Offended Ones". "They" work for "Us", not the other way around; or is that, "I am your Obedient Servant" yet another way of insulting society's intelligence?

I’m glad to see a sensible and calm discussion of the subject, unlike some of the other sites.

People like Adriana111 and Arek rightly get angry when they feel that they are being attacked personally. Usually, however, they misunderstand the frustration behind posts where English people are objecting to the PRINCIPLE of immigration, not to individual immigrants such as them. This frustration is directed against the British Government, not against them, usually. The exception is where people bring criminal behaviour, or things that are distasteful to our own culture.

I am fortunate. My work takes me all around the world. I am also fortunate enough to be able to speak 6 languages, and currently I’m learning two more because of where I need to work next. I’ve lived in several countries for prolonged periods and because I knew the language, was able to find out lots about the people and other ways of life at first-hand.

The next area I will be living in will be the Middle East. I know that certain things that I enjoy, like a glass of wine with a meal is unacceptable to local people so I will not indulge. I have to take morphine based prescription drugs so I am working with my doctors to change them, because again, they are not acceptable there, and a sensible thing to do. I will speak Arabic, because it is respectful to people in my host country that I do so. Although I am a Christian, I will not be pressing the point, nor arguing for special treatment. I wouldn’t get it, anyway

Almost all countries of the Middle East have the same rules about immigrants – and I think sensible ones. Guest workers are welcomed but under strict rules. If I were an employee, my employer would be responsible for the costs of my health care. (I part own a business there, so my business pays). If I need to educate my children, then I must pay for it – if I can get them into the country, which is difficult.

For all guest workers there are certain rules. Visas are now only given for 4 years. Exceptionally, it is possible to get a short extension. No guest worker is offered citizenship unless he or she is in the country for 20 years – which is of course, impossible. Even though I own a business, and one of my partners is a member of the royal family, there is no exception for me. If I commit any crimes or give offence to anyone, my visa is immediately withdrawn, and I must leave the country. Companies have maximum quotas of guest workers they can employ and if citizens want the job, they are given preference. Citizens enjoy many privileges and legal that guest workers do not. I believe that this is sensible protection of the country’s interests and those of its citizens. The rules apply throughout the Middle East, though they are even tougher in Saudi. I know their rules and I’m happy to work there under them. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t go there.

In other zones, such as the Indian Subcontinent, Africa, and Asia in particular I see much of what goes on there. I have seen many of the worst and most corrupt practices brought to the UK and I find that difficult to accept.

As a professional researcher, I have access to much information that is not generally available. I don’t use any questionable sources such as most internet sites. What I see in that genuine information causes me great concern.

The recent House of Lords report debunked the economic contribution that migrants make. They ignored other that make the much worse. Trevor Philips, Head of the Equal Opportunities Commission recently said that immigrants were transferring £3.5 billion each year to families back home – through official systems. This ignores Hawala and other informal systems of transfer. There are much greater sums being transferred this way than through official systems – I have first-hand knowledge of it. If you don’t think that’s important let me tell you some basic economics which show the government is telling us lies.

Economic success of any country is measured on rises of its GDP. The reason our GDP is rising is the extra number of people. Simple figures. If we have 10 million people here and 1 million come in our GDP rises 10%, but so does consuming all services so the effect = nil. But it looks good in Government figures as “economic growth”. It’s pure rubbish.

I have some neighbours, who I know and like very much. They are immigrants, and they are going ‘home’ soon. They have been here four years. They work on the minimum wage, and pay little tax. She has just had a baby (cost to NHS £8,000). They have saved £75,000 in the time they were here, and will take it ‘home’ and spend it on a new house. Most of the money they spend they do in a shop run by one of their own nationality and spend it on directly imported food. They will take all of their £75,000 ‘home’.

My neighbours’ £75,000 comes directly out of our UK economy and is not taken awy from the GDP headline figure. The UK gets no benefit from it. Think of it in terms of your family income. You earn, let’s say, £30,000 each year as family income. Someone takes £5,000 each year direct from your income. Your ACTUAL income is £25,000 giving you £5,000 less to spend or invest for your future. So we have the wide scale, unreported erosion of the UK economy costing us £billions every year. None of that considers fraud and theft.

These are the figures that our government is not telling us!

And there is much, much more. But I’ve gone on long enough.

There was a time when a minority of British people said that if immigrants did not like the UK then they could always leave - this is obviously small minded and offensive. However, for Rageh Omar to suggest in his conclusion of part 3 that if the British born population did not like the UK anymore, then they could always get on a plane to another country is outrageous and equally if not more offensive.
To get a healthy and sustainable community, just look at successfull immigration policies of other countries such as New Zealand, Australia, the Carribean etc - limit numbers and professions to requirements, a confirmed job offer is a requirement of entry, operate a points system, in many Caribbean countries jobs are only offered to none nationals where it is proven that the post cannot be filled by a national, the post is readvertised every year or so to enable nationals to apply for the post etc etc. An open door, uncontroled and unrestricted policy that the UK operates is unhealthy and chaotic and encourages an unstable floating population with differing expectations. This is unstable for all sectors of the community. Rageh Omar missed the big picture with a misguided and weak conclusion. Better solutions exist for everyone, but unfortuneately not in the UK.

I have some neighbours, who I know and like very much. They are immigrants, and they are going ‘home’ soon. They have been here four years. They work on the minimum wage, and pay little tax. She has just had a baby (cost to NHS £8,000). They have saved £75,000 in the time they were here, and will take it ‘home’ and spend it on a new house. Most of the money they spend they do in a shop run by one of their own nationality and spend it on directly imported food. They will take all of their £75,000 ‘home’.[/QUOTE]


Wow, I wish I could save £75,00 in 4 years living on the minimum wage, would you even earn that amount?

@toffeekins

I must confess I was amazed too. But I believe it is genuine. We were talking about houses, and my friend told me he was having a very nice house built. I asked him what the mortgage situation was in his country, and he said "Oh no, I'm paying cash for it - the money I've earned in the UK". He explained he and his wife had worked around the clock, and that the miniumum wage was considerably more than the average wage in his country (about £400 per month) and that they had absolutely no problem living on one wage, especially as they did not smoke, drink, drive a car or own a TV. They ride bikes to work. They were able to bank all his wife's wage plus the money they received from doing their second 'cash-in hand' jobs.

You shouldn't judge people by UK standards. They had admirably worked their socks off and banked every penny to fulfill their dreams. Unfortunately, in the process his wife had become quite ill while expecting their child because of all the work she was doing.