For once I totally agree with you KoR-evo. No wonder that Marshall was warning Jack she was dangerous in the piliot eppy. However I do think that on the island shes done more to atone for her crimes than AL - trying to get Saywer blamed for poisoning Micheal and leaving him for dead aside shes done Ok on the island. (has she had a choice though?) You can say that like AL you can understand what she did - espec has it is implied that her real father abused her but for me there is no excuse for murder
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Originally posted by taylor85: I agree. As much as I don't like AL (and I really really really don't like her), what Kate did was awful. It was disgusting.
What's the point in what she did? I totally agree, koR-evo, I can't see the resons behind it
I know, it was just pointless. I mean how can she just kill him for those pathetic reasons? It was for pure selfish reasons aswell..why couldnt she just move away instead..it's not as if she doesnt like to be on the move, lol.
Oh and call me Roco if you want..i know KoR-evo's a hassel to type
I don't think you can really choose. They both committed murder, along with a slew of other crimes. And, in both cases, I think they had some cause but it was very weak compared to the response it provoked.
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I cannot even begin to understand Kate's reasoning for what she did!
Can you?
I'll have a go:
I think the idea was that she was able to put up with her step-dad knowing he was just that. In her mind, he was nothing to her. She could tell herself that she was nothing like him, and that one day she would leave him behind and resume relations with her real dad.
Then... she found out this hated, nasty little man was actually her biological father, and her world was turned upside down. She saw the similarities between herself and him and was appalled. So she committed a crime of passion, as if extinguishing she could sever the link between them, justifying it to herself that she was "saving" her mother - who had no wish to be saved. Like Ana Lucia, she told herself that what she did was for the greater good, while deep down knowing she did it for hatred.
Originally posted by esn: For once I totally agree with you KoR-evo.
hehe..first time for everything ay esn!
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No wonder that Marshall was warning Jack she was dangerous in the piliot eppy.
Yeah, no I can see why he was so dramatic in his warning to Jack!
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However I do think that on the island shes done more to atone for her crimes than AL - trying to get Saywer blamed for poisoning Micheal and leaving him for dead aside shes done Ok on the island. (has she had a choice though?)
Not sure she has though..what has kate really done to help out..Sawyer aside since she clearly has the hots for him. Actually, she has probably done more to harm Sawyer what with all the times she headbutted him and got Jack to confront him etc. Imo AL has done far more..she's led a group of fairly incapable survivors [Eko aside] to safety. All Kate has really done is volunteer to go on missions into the Jungle and stuff..oh and flirt with Jack and Sawyer. I suppose someones got to keep them boys on their toes
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You can say that like AL you can understand what she did - espec has it is implied that her real father abused her but for me there is no excuse for murder
No because she said to the Marshall [or was it Sawyer?] that Wayne never touched her..she was quite adament about that. She also said that she didnt kill him because he beat on her mother..she clearly stated that her motive was that she wanted something 'good' and that seeing Wayne made her believe that she would never have anything good. Pathetic excuse for murder if ever there was one.
I actually do feel sorry for Kate. She obviously had a perfectly good reason for doing what she did but I have a feeling that we just havent learned it yet.
I feel its sad that something/someone pushed her to do what she did and I actually feel really sorry for her.
I think we should wait until we get a fuller idea of her motive before we go saying she had no reason to do it, I think we will fid out more about that situtation before the end of the series.
However I do think that on the island shes done more to atone for her crimes than AL - trying to get Saywer blamed for poisoning Micheal and leaving him for dead aside shes done Ok on the island. (has she had a choice though?)
Not sure she has though..what has kate really done to help out..Sawyer aside since she clearly has the hots for him. Actually, she has probably done more to harm Sawyer what with all the times she headbutted him and got Jack to confront him etc. Imo AL has done far more..she's led a group of fairly incapable survivors [Eko aside] to safety.But trying to atone for past crimes? All Kate has really done is volunteer to go on missions into the Jungle and stuff..oh and flirt with Jack and Sawyer. I suppose someones got to keep them boys on their toes Well by going on those jungle missions thats her way of trying - I did say she only tried but also that circumstances may have forced her to do so anyway
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You can say that like AL you can understand what she did - espec has it is implied that her real father abused her but for me there is no excuse for murder
No because she said to the Marshall [or was it Sawyer?] that Wayne never touched her..she was quite adament about that. Could have been in denial like her motherShe also said that she didnt kill him because he beat on her motherAgain could have been in denial..she clearly stated that her motive was that she wanted something 'good' and that seeing Wayne made her believe that she would never have anything good. Pathetic excuse for murder if ever there was one.Agreed but any excuse for murder is pathetic IMO
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I didn't like AL at first. However the way her character has developed made me at first feel empathy with her and now I'd say I even have admiration for her.
Kate on the other hand.... Well I didn't like her at first either. Over time her characters development has intensified that to the point where I can't stand her at all! She is a manipulative, selfish b1tch and now we know, a cold blooded murderer.
It seems to me all the characters fall into two catagories. In relation to their past actions we have those who chose to learn from mistakes and reflect on how they can use the experience for positive/spiritual growth think (Sayid and Jin for example) , and those who have such an over-inflated ego that they think they are faultless and blame everyone/thing else for having to make certain decisions(Jack and Kate)!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * D.O.L. - Forever The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it The Exclusive Pea
Originally posted by Cavegirl: I don't think you can really choose. They both committed murder, along with a slew of other crimes. And, in both cases, I think they had some cause but it was very weak compared to the response it provoked.
quote:
I cannot even begin to understand Kate's reasoning for what she did!
Can you?
I'll have a go:
I think the idea was that she was able to put up with her step-dad knowing he was just that. In her mind, he was nothing to her. She could tell herself that she was nothing like him, and that one day she would leave him behind and resume relations with her real dad.
Then... she found out this hated, nasty little man was actually her biological father, and her world was turned upside down. She saw the similarities between herself and him and was appalled. So she committed a crime of passion, as if extinguishing she could sever the link between them, justifying it to herself that she was "saving" her mother - who had no wish to be saved. Like Ana Lucia, she told herself that what she did was for the greater good, while deep down knowing she did it for hatred.
I think you've explained her mind-set superbly, but I really dont think that her 'crime of passion' is as justifiable as AL's..not one bit.
I understand that once she knew that he was actually her 'blood' it may have made her discusted and made her feel that [like you said] she would be bound or tied to him forever and would maybe one day end up like him..but to go and blow the man up and then..then to pretned to her mom that she did it for her..tut..that is so discusting im still in shock.
She had plently of options..she could have just moved to another country or something. I mean im sure many people dont like their parents..but they dont go around killing them because of it. I find what she did really sickening and worrying. No wonder the Marshall was so determined to get her. I have lost any sympathy that I ever had for Kate now.
The difference with AL is that she was harmed and so she retaliated in kind. Whilst both actions are totally inexcusable, at least AL had a more justifiable reason in my opinion.
[btw, i know youre not 'necessarily' defending Kate] I just feel that Kate deserves far more scorn than AL has received recently.
Yes , Kate is a horrible person at the end of the day , much much worse than Ana Lucia . Imo , she didn't even have a true reason to killing Wayne . He beaten her mother , she could've simply told the police , but no she kills him . Ana Lucia on the other hand , kills the murderer of her baby . . . now that's a true reason . Kate is the worser person .
I'm afraid I disagree, although I still like both characters and still think they were both very wrong to do what they did.
Every woman who gets pregnant goes into it knowing that there is a high chance the pregnancy will sponaneously abort within the first 3 months - that's just a risk of nature. Every cop who goes on the beat knows they could get shot or stabbed or gut-punched by some random criminal - that's a known risk of police work. Ana Lucia must have known both these things, yet she still went on the beat while pregnant, and when the predictable tragedy happened she blamed everyone but herself. I'm not saying it's her fault she lost the baby - only that she knew the risk. She also knew the law, yet chose to ignore it and take a vigilante route which was dangerous to her career, her mother's career, anyone who cared about her and her most of all her own soul.
While many people don't like their parents we don't know exactly what kind of mental trauma Young Kate was put through - we don't have enough evidence yet, not knowing how old she was when new/real dad came on the scene, or how badly/frequently her mother's "accidents" happened, or what he may have implied/threatened to do to Kate. I think if she was very traumatised at a young age, it makes her actions more understandable, just as Sawyer's actions are more understandable (in my opinion) because his trauma happened when he was very young. She was young, shakey, unsure of herself, had no-one to turn to with her problems (as her mother wouldn't even admit what was happening), and had probably been set some very dubious standards for right and wrong.
I'm not saying that everyone who has had a tragic and unpleasant childhood has a get-out-of-jail free card. These people's crimes were all, in my opinion, completely wrong and they all need counselling to help them understand and admit their mistakes and, ultimately, atone for them.
It seems very clear to me that the island offers them just this opportunity. A place to reflect, make more mistakes if necessary, learn, and heal.
Yet another AL thread, this is bordering on an obsession...
AL and Kate both planned to murder people and went through with it, neither of the people they killed were all that nice but in my opinion they both thought what they were doing was right which is the part that makes them just as bad. We dont know the whole story with Kate, did Wayne really abuse her? She denied it but of course she would, thats a natural reaction. Ana on the other hand lost her child (and not to defend Jason but he didnt know she was pregnent so its not like he deliberatly meant to kill her unborn kid. If he did I would probably think differantly) and turned into a trigger happy psychopath.
Both of them are as bad as each other, neither murder was justifiable but then I dont feel you can justify pre-meditated murder. They are both bad people.
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Originally posted by *sweet pea*: I didn't like AL at first. However the way her character has developed made me at first feel empathy with her and now I'd say I even have admiration for her.
Me too..im starting to admire her more and more with each passing episode..and that a big complement.
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Kate on the other hand.... Well I didn't like her at first either. Over time her characters development has intensified that to the point where I can't stand her at all! She is a manipulative, selfish b1tch and now we know, a cold blooded murderer.
Agreed. I always used to rib Kate but now im actually finding myself just not liking her. She is very manipulative and very selfish. She's got a heart when it suits her needs but even then it's self-motivated. Cant stand her.
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It seems to me all the characters fall into two catagories. In relation to their past actions we have those who chose to learn from mistakes and reflect on how they can use the experience for positive/spiritual growth think (Sayid and Jin for example) , and those who have such an over-inflated ego that they think they are faultless and blame everyone/thing else for having to make certain decisions(Jack and Kate)!
Originally posted by Cavegirl: I'm afraid I disagree, although I still like both characters and still think they were both very wrong to do what they did.
Every woman who gets pregnant goes into it knowing that there is a high chance the pregnancy will sponaneously abort within the first 3 months - that's just a risk of nature.
Oh my CG..i cant understand this..this doesnt mean that they should expect to get shot and for thier child to be lost to them, does it? I dont see how you can apply this 'risk of nature' as you put it, into AL's situation..the fact is that her child was murdered..it was no 'natural' accident.
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Every cop who goes on the beat knows they could get shot or stabbed or gut-punched by some random criminal - that's a known risk of police work. Ana Lucia must have known both these things, yet she still went on the beat while pregnant, and when the predictable tragedy happened she blamed everyone but herself.
Yes it's a risk but how does this make it any less painful etc..I dont understand. Many woman who get pregnant work for a few months into their pregancy, it doesnt mean that they should expect someone to do something to harm their child. Yes, she's a police officer but many police woman work for a couple of months into pregnancy. I think you are being very harsh here CG. No-one should 'expect' to get shot or stabbed..no-one.
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I'm not saying it's her fault she lost the baby - only that she knew the risk.
Yes but we know the risk that everyday we step outside we could get run over by a car..that doesnt make it any less shocking or painful when/if it happens, does it..
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She also knew the law, yet chose to ignore it and take a vigilante route which was dangerous to her career, her mother's career, anyone who cared about her and her most of all her own soul.
Yes, we know this..but how does this make her worse than Kate..i dont understand? She committed a crime that she shouldnt have but at the end of the day the swine killed her baby..a baby..that's deep. I cant see the comparison between AL's revenge and Kates..for me Kates is 20 times worse.
quote:
While many people don't like their parents we don't know exactly what kind of mental trauma Young Kate was put through - we don't have enough evidence yet, not knowing how old she was when new/real dad came on the scene, or how badly/frequently her mother's "accidents" happened, or what he may have implied/threatened to do to Kate. I think if she was very traumatised at a young age, it makes her actions more understandable, just as Sawyer's actions are more understandable (in my opinion) because his trauma happened when he was very young. She was young, shakey, unsure of herself, had no-one to turn to with her problems (as her mother wouldn't even admit what was happening), and had probably been set some very dubious standards for right and wrong.
Im speechless..i think for the first time ever..im speechless..i just dont understand how you can defend Kate on the grounds that she was 'young' when 'something' 'might' have happened to her..you're going on 'if's and maybe's'..yet we know that she said that she killed Wayne because she 'didnt want to turn out like him'..how is that defendable..how? She said that he never abused her so you cant speculate on that one..she killed the man in cold blood for stupid reasons. She could have moved away..why kill the man. How can you slate AL for taking revenge on the person that 'killed' her child and yet defend Kate for murdering her own father..her own blood because she didnt want to become like him. Thats senseless murder in the extreme [i know all urder is senseless..but you know what i mean].
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I'm not saying that everyone who has had a tragic and unpleasant childhood has a get-out-of-jail free card. These people's crimes were all, in my opinion, completely wrong and they all need counselling to help them understand and admit their mistakes and, ultimately, atone for them.
But CG..she wasnt abused as a child..how can you use this as 'defence' in favour of Kate..i dont get it..
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It seems very clear to me that the island offers them just this opportunity. A place to reflect, make more mistakes if necessary, learn, and heal.
Yes, i agree in part to that. Although I havent seen any sign of redemption from Kate btw.
This is difficult. I have read a number of posts form forumers that really have taken a dislike to Kate. I can understand some of the points made by them about her, but just don't feel that myself. We know she has been through alot and I think she has been on the run for a while and it looks to me that she has little experience in forming lasting relationships. She has gone from one place to another always covering her tracks for some time so her experience of forming relationships will be limited and undeveloped. If we look at her life, we see that the person that she thought was her real father turned out not to be and had lied to her for all her life. Her mother, who I beleive she was trying to help by killing Wayne betrayed her to the police. And made it clear when Kate visited her before her death that she hated her. Her own biological father was a sleaze ball, who although he didnt actually touch Kate was obviously coming onto her. His feelings for her didnt seem too "fatherly" to me. Her relationship with her one and only Love ended in tragedy with her being responsible for his death. And then the relationship/frienship she had with the guy in Australia ended with him betraying her. I think she is genuinely scared of and inexperienced in holding onto relationships and this is why it seems to us that she is selfish. I cannot condone what she did to Wayne, but I think that she would have been disgusted by the way he looked at her, and made his sleazy feeling obvious to her. He would have known she was his biological daughter. Who knows maybe she had seen him letching over other young women. With regard to him beating her mother. I think that Kate loved her mother deeply. I work with women and children that are in or have been in abusive relationships and I know the psychological damage that children can suffer. They often feel guilty, and they want to do something to stop their mums being hurt. This is not letting Kate off the hook for what she did, but I think the psychologial damamge went deeper than perhaps she knew. She probably doesnt know why she killed him. There were probably so many reasons and feelings and it would be hard for her to explain, we will never understand because we are not her. So I think they both had reasons, but murder is murder and they both committed the same crime.
D.O.L....loving Lockes smile
Buddha says: "Dharma is like a raft" but he says " it is for crossing over with, not for grasping onto"
But CG..she wasnt abused as a child..how can you use this as 'defence' in favour of Kate..i dont get it..
Roco abuse takes many guises, not just sexual, or physical. It seems to me that Kate suffered emotional and psychological abuse as a child by seeing her mother regualrly beaten.
D.O.L....loving Lockes smile
Buddha says: "Dharma is like a raft" but he says " it is for crossing over with, not for grasping onto"
Originally posted by mantis_zero: Yet another AL thread, this is bordering on an obsession...
Except it's not an 'AL thread'..if anything it's a Kate thread..like the title suggests
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AL and Kate both planned to murder people and went through with it, neither of the people they killed were all that nice but in my opinion they both thought what they were doing was right which is the part that makes them just as bad.
But surely Kate's was worse..she did it because 'she wanted something good'. It wasnt even borne out of the fact that he beat her mom..it was borne out of the fact that she didnt want to be like him..i mean, how ridiculous is that?
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We dont know the whole story with Kate, did Wayne really abuse her? She denied it but of course she would, thats a natural reaction.
But why do you speculate for possible defense-cards for Kate but whenever youre talking abut AL you slate her without even putting forth possible 'excuses' for her actions? I know you dislike her but surely you have to be a bit more fair in your judgements?
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Ana on the other hand lost her child (and not to defend Jason but he didnt know she was pregnent so its not like he deliberatly meant to kill her unborn kid. If he did I would probably think differantly) and turned into a trigger happy psychopath.
Thats besides the point..he went out with the intent to hurt Ana!
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Both of them are as bad as each other, neither murder was justifiable but then I dont feel you can justify pre-meditated murder. They are both bad people.
Disagree with them both being as bad a seach other. look at it this way..in a court of law who would get the heftier sentance? ..Kate would, without a doubt. Therefore surely this makes her crime worse..surely!
To see someone beating your own mother, to watch her cower in fear and turn into someone you no longer recognise..It is a perfectly reasonable excuse..
However, it appears that wasn't her reasoning behind it..So I can not and do not condone it at all.
No wonder that Marshall was warning Jack she was dangerous in the piliot eppy. However I do think that on the island shes done more to atone for her crimes than AL - trying to get Saywer blamed for poisoning Micheal and leaving him for dead aside shes done Ok on the island. (has she had a choice though?) You can say that like AL you can understand what she did - espec has it is implied that her real father abused her but for me there is no excuse for murder
She is a manipulative, selfish b1tch and now we know, a cold blooded murderer. 
Yes it's a risk but how does this make it any less painful etc..I dont understand. Many woman who get pregnant work for a few months into their pregancy, it doesnt mean that they should expect someone to do something to harm their child. Yes, she's a police officer but many police woman work for a couple of months into pregnancy. I think you are being very harsh here CG. No-one should 'expect' to get shot or stabbed..no-one.