quote:

Originally posted by esn:
Of course hes a great doctor. his own dad reconises him has such in the real world. On the island he controlled Shannons breathing to a certain extent with that "jedi moment".

True but she still would've died if it wasnt for Sun's herbal remedy imo. Jack should have realised that eucalyptus was a viable option..he even chastised himself afterwards for not realising.

quote:

How many doctors are open to alternative medicine? not many.

Trust me on this one, many are.. Medical science is more open than ever before to the possibilities of alternative medicine..also, when youre in a jungle and someone cannot breathe..i dont think eucalyptus is that much of a stretch for a man of science to consider using. I think it's a pretty logical option, it's just that Jack was too blinkered and hell bent on retribution that he failed to see what was literally right in front of his eyes.

quote:

He saved Roses and Charlies - how long did Charlie hang for,

I'll give you Rose..Charlie, like I said above, despite him saving his life, did seem down to luck more than anything..but I suppose this one is open to interpretation.

quote:

and he nearly saved Boone with very little medical help and dispite the fact the dude had a collapsed lung - even in a hospital that would have been hard to do.

How did he 'almost save Boone' though ..he didnt look almost saved to me, lol..in fact Jack was just digging himself a hole and making things worse for Boone in my opinion. He did help Boone's lung but he certainly made Boone more ill [just ask Sun!] and chopping off his leg?..now what good would that have done!?

quote:

He also performed a mircale on Sarah.

No he didnt..what miracle? How is this possible? If you ask me it was Christian and probabaly Dharma's advanced science that were responsible for her legs getting fixed. Remember throught this eppy Christian was trying to get Jack to have more hope and show more faith..what better way then to make him think that he miraculously saved the woman he was falling for!? For me, there was no miracle..only Dharma's science.

quote:

I think that he did show concern for her child and was noticablly worried, and wanted to make sure of the facts before giving out advice.

Ive watched that episode many times and I see no concern..he was very harsh and aloof even..he was also very snappy as if poor Claire could help when she went into labour.

quote:

Given that he was bleeding hes own blood into Boone at the time and afterwards wanted to ask Locke a few questions (lets be honest why wouldnt he not)

But who toild him to pour his [wrong] blod into Boone? This was an awful decision..they guy made a terrible choice. He just couldnt let go..Boone was beyond repair and even if he wasnt he should have either allowed other people like Sun to help or should've just made sure that Boone's final hours were peacful..his main duty should've been to find Shannon and not torture the poor man further.

quote:

Plus useful medical treatment from Sun? what medical treatment?

Who do you think gave him the 'needles' to do the blood transfusion..that was Sun. She also helped him deflate Boone's lung and offered Jack great advice and support which he threw back in her face. He was so selfish in his persuit of saving Boone's life..Boone's life wasnt his to play with.

quote:

Any good doctor will try to save thier paitent and do what it takes.

But he wasnt 'his' patient..he was a patient. Jack had no right to block Sun out from helping.

quote:

With regrards to Locke being shot - he could see it was only a scratch so why bother.

Im sorry, I cant accept that..this is what i mean about Jack taking the moral high ground and then contradicting himself..he said "we have to live together or die alone"...maybe he should have added a disclaimer on the end of that speech?? A good doctor would never ever disregard someone's medical needs because of his personal feeling towards that patient.

quote:

With regards to Saywer he treated him even though the guy told him not to.

No he didnt..im talking about when he threatened Sawyer over the case key..he threatened that he wouldnt give Sawyer the drugs that he needed to make his arm better...an arm which Jack helped injure by the way, by allowing Sayid to torture him. tut!

quote:

Granted it was due to his guilt but it must have been tempted to let him die.

Oh my..thats a terrible thing to say esn! What had Sawyer done to Jack that justified the temptation to let him die?? TUT!

quote:

With regards to Claire he followed his docotors logic and tried to make her see sense. Yes ok hes bed side manner sucks but at least can we give him that?

Well if it was just that, then maybe..but as weve seen, there are a whole host of things which make this another negative notch on his bad doctor ethics list.

quote:

With reagards to the key, he knew what was in it and didnt want guns to fall into the worng hands and was doing it to protect the rest of the group.

Then why couldnt he just reason with Sawyer instead of threatening him. Sawyer was in an affable mood, he could have just spoken to him reaosnably. And regardless, what gives Jack the right to think that he should dictate who owns the guns? ..as weve just seen in 'Collision', the man is a hypocrite and he is not exactly the best person to be in charge of guns is he!?

quote:

In terms of his doctor ethics - well the situation they are in is going to stetch these a little but gernerally they are good - trying to save has many has possible, making sure of the saftey of the group are those not good ethics?

Im sorry, I cant agree with this..wouldnt the situation at hand make it even more paromount that a doctor apply good ethics and principle's to his medical care and choices? Especially comming from a man who consistently takes the moral high ground?

quote:

Originally posted by becky_23:
this thread is complete madness, jack is a fantastic doctor. and this is the wrong forum to be saying why - damm u s/f - lol

lol, im just applying freedom of spech. I know lots of people like him but it doesnt mean that he's beyond critism?..if I can accept AL and Locke getting [reasonably] critised then surely everyone can accept Jack being crisitised? These are just my genuine thoughts on the character..i like wathcing him but feel that he has many flaws which leave him open to question. I realise that not everyone will agree with me..thats absolutely fine..and i welcome people to defend him with reason and logic. We may not agree but thats what opinions are all about.

Ok...I posted too early..


-Jack may think that he 'fixed' Sarah..but how could he have..he doesnt believe in miracles does he? Surely Sarah regained the use of her legs due to some secret Dharma involvement [theory]..maybe suggesting that Christian had something to do with it also..but not Jack, that was quite clear.I do not think it had anything to do with Dharma, since it was years before the crash. But I do not think Jack has ever said that he performed a miracle. Atleast I have never heard him say that..If he has then please tell me someone...

-Jack made Claire run off into the jungle which also resulted in her being abducted by Ethan. Now if he was a good doctor wouldnt he have listened to his patient [Claire] in the first place and showed her that he believed her? I'll give you that one..

-Jack witheld medication from Sawyer all because Kate wanted her key back..I mean, bad ethics or what!?..how mean can one man be? No matter what, Jack should'nt have witheld vital medication from Sawyer, just because his 'girlfriend' wanted her key back..and it wasnt even her key! He did not with hold trteatment. He threatened to, and I'm sorry to say, but he only did that because Kate lied about her real reason for wanting the case and made Jack feel it wasn't safe for Sawyer to have a case full of guns.

-When Locke got shot/grazed in the head by Shannon, Jack just stood there and smirked. He clearly let his personal rift with Locke get in the way of good doctor ethics. He should have at least ensured that Locke was ok. Yes, I do think he let his personal feelings cloud his judgement there.

-When Claire was giving birth he didnt even show any concern for her or her child. I know he was preoccupied with Boone but his attitude stunk. He could've at least shown 'some' conceren surely!? He was pumping his own blood into Boone at that point.

-Which bring's me to Boone. The guy [Jack] basically got tunnel vision and went on his own little crusade, ignoring useful medical treatment form Sun and made sevearal terrible decisions. He was even going to mutilate the poor guy, I mean Jack, despite trying to save Boone, made bad bad decisions with regard to his medical treatment of Boone. If he had accepted Sun's help then at least Boone might have died in peace rather than in pain and heartache. But,when Boone had first got injured, I do not think he wanted to die either. Jack was trying to keep him alive till they found Shannon at least. It was one of the first things he said, 'find Shannon'. Jack did accept Suns help too, she found the 'needle' for him to use for the blood transfusion. Bot, Boone was never going to die in peace. In the beginning his lung was colapsed and he would have very slowly suffocated. BESIDES, Just say Jack had sat there and said, Ok, I'm not doing anything at all, I'm going to help Claire instead, he'd have been slated for that too.

I could continue but I think these are adequate examples of Jack's poor doctor/patient ethics and his poor treatment of patients.

I know he's got a difficult job on his hands looking after all those people, but can this be any excuse..I mean he puts himself on a maral pedestal and yet he frequently fails to deliver and adhere to good doctor ethics.

Is he a good doctor? [I know many of you like him as a man..but please focus on whether or not he's a good 'doctor' with good/bad ethics etc..no bias please being "fit" or "dishy" doesnt amount to being a good doctor either ]I think he is a decent doctor...I wouldn't say great, but these are not normal conditions he is working under..He did well with Rose in the first epppy, he jumped in and saved Boone when everyone else just stood there watching, he did save Charlie, through desperation or otherwse, he did save him. He saved Sawyer when Sayid punctured his arm, hopefully he will save him this time too...Give him a decent surgical room, some proper medical equiptment and some more staff, I'm sure he'd do better. I mean, you say he is on a one man crusade to save them all. He has no choice, he is the only doctor there..

quote:

Originally posted by Beach Crew:
Roco...you're like me with Kate, never give her any slack! LOL!

lol, I do like watching him and find him interesting but the guy just annoys me with some of his ways!

-

quote:

Yes, he was unable to help Shannon, but he did stop her going into Panic, he seemed to calm her until Sun made the eucalyptus available.

Veryt true..i give him credit for claming her down..however surely this does not excuse almost killing your poor Sawyer for the inhalers..does it? Surely if he wasnt so sure that Sawyer had them then he would have had the clarity to realise that there were other medical alternatives available..just like Sun did.

-

quote:

This one I'm with you. Poor sweet Sawyer, he didn't say either way if he had the inhalers but Jack was quite happy to go along with the torture. This was unethical, and I was very disappointed. However, ya gotta give him some credit for stopping Sayid. And then saving Sawyer's life. Thank god.

Ah..I was getting worried about you for a minute there B! ..I should've read down first..never mind.

I dont think Jack did stop Sayid though..he had already lacerated Sawyers arm hadnt he? And even if Jack did stop Sayid, it doesnt excuse allowing him to torture him..for me this makes Jack worse than Sayid ever was. To condone such an action and still take the moral high ground shows not only contradiction but cowardice imo.

quote:

-I think in the case of Charlie Jack started as a professional and then his desperation took over. He just wanted to save his friend.

I wont argue too much with this one as he did seem to genuinly care..even if his care was alos fueled by his inability to 'let go' and fail.

quote:

- Jack saved Sarah in a way, he did say it was possible that she could walk. In fact this could show what a good doctor he is.

Have to disagree there..how did Jack save Sarah? He thought that she would never walk again..which proves [imo] that it was not his doing that saved her..someone else had surely done something to save her without his knowledge..possibly Christian or Dharma..or even Desmond perhaps? [theory btw]

quote:

- Claire was stressed. Um...I'm not a fan of her...can't argue.

lol..

quote:

- Now this one, again I was horrified at Jack for this behaviour. How dare he threaten Sawyer with medication, especially if it involves Sawyer. Damn Kate!

agreed. Not just because it's Sawyer though..he shouldnt have done it no matter who is was..this alone makes Jack a terrible terible doctor in my eye's.

quote:

- The Locke thing...I was with Shannon, so I don't feel I could do anything but applaud Jack.

Beachy..im shocked! He could have at least ensured he was ok..maybe given him a hanky or something to wipe the blood!? He would if it was Kate so why not Locke..makes him a bad doctor imo.

quote:

- Claire was fine. Boone was dying. Like I said not a fan of Claire.

How was Claire fine though? She was giving birth, lol. Jack had no way of knowing if she was ok or not.

quote:

- If Locke had told Jack about Boone it would have eased his suffering earlier as Jack would have been able to tend to him in the correct way!

Maybe, I suppose this Locke witholding info thing is down to interpretation..however Jack has to be accountable for his actions..just like Locke does. Jack made several bad decisions regardless of Locke's lack of info. imo.

quote:

Off the island I feel he may have been a good doctor, perhaps even a great doctor, but on the island, I think with his stress....he's just lucky. But without the stress, he would be good.

Im not to sure..i think he was an OK doctor..Christian obviously saw something 'great' in him..I just sense that at that time Jack was a major 'work in progress', in fact i still think he is now. He could be a good doctor but I still think he has a lot to learn..especially on the 'human' and 'emotional' side of things..

I think Jack has 2 main problems being the island's doctor:

1) he is a control freak - and conditions on the island are out of his control
2) he is an overachiever/perfectionist

I expect he is a good doctor in real life where he has medical teams and equipment to back him up and his decisions are respected due to his years of overworking etc. However, on the island he seems unable to adapt.

To be a good island doctor he would need a much more patient and relaxed personality - like Locke - and need to be more willing to delegate and listen to other people's opinions and explain why he is not going along with them. He seems determined to act as if he is still in civilisation - he won't delegate responsibility to anyone who is not trained medical personnel. Which, of course, leaves all the work to him, and he can't cope.

He reminds me of a parent who has no patience to teach their child the skills they need for survive and long-sufferingly sighs, "Oh I'll do it" over every task. If he would trust his friends to be capable of learning, his burden would be much reduced.

Being able to control Shannon’s breathing doesn’t make him a good doctor. If I have an attack my friends and family are just as capable as he was! Plus I think having Boone with her helped Shannon through it a lot – she started to panic again when he tried to leave.

I was wondering what people think about Jack giving Charlie medication to help him with his withdrawl from heroin? Before the Nigerian plane we had no idea that there would ever be more heroin and eventually the medication he was giving Charlie would run out. Could Charlie have become addicted to this medication? If so, was that sensible of Jack (as a doctor rather than a friend) to give him that as a substitute, if Charlie could just have traded one addiction for another?


Becky_23 – this isn’t about plain bashing Jack. I can admit that he has some good qualities (although maybe one or two at the most) but this isn’t about his character. This is analysing his past and his present on the island and his techniques. The same is done for every character – from Ana Lucia through to Walt.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a grown-up discussion. Despite my (overwhelmingly and increasingly) negative views of Jack I am willing to take into consideration what the Jack-ies say and accept them even if our views clash.
Heck, I’d even understand someone giving a reasonable critique of Sayid or Locke (as long as it wasn’t just to have a go at them because they didn’t like them.) I’m sorry if this thread or its responses have upset you but I feel that there is nothing wrong with free discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by esn:
The thing is why would his Dad, who had been hard on him all of his life tell him hes probably the best doctor in the city? and then later tell Sawyer that hes a good, probably a great doctor and that hes a better doctor than he will ever be? surely thats enough indication that Jacks okish at worst?

Well..parents are often biased afterall. But more probable is the possibility that as AP said, Christian may well be involved in the island somehow..whilst rewatching S1 I did get the subtle impression that Christian has island-links and possibly was involved in getting Jack to the island.

Also, Jack probably is a good 'text-book' doctor..but dont forget that even Christian [in MoSMoF] wanted him to apply a bit more 'hope' to his medical standards. This indicates that Jack is/was seriously lacking in certain aspects of medicine/science.

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
Also, Jack probably is a good 'text-book' doctor..but dont forget that even Christian [in MoSMoF] wanted him to apply a bit more 'hope' to his medical standards. This indicates that Jack is/was seriously lacking in certain aspects of medicine/science.

I think all new doctors are 'text book' doctors for a while. A good bed-side manner and tact can't be taught and instead are developed over years of experience of doing it the wrong way. In the flashback with Christian, Jack looked only in his late 20s/early 30s so had probably only qualified a little time before which could be a reason why he was so to the point.

quote:

Originally posted by chelle_b:

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
Also, Jack probably is a good 'text-book' doctor..but dont forget that even Christian [in MoSMoF] wanted him to apply a bit more 'hope' to his medical standards. This indicates that Jack is/was seriously lacking in certain aspects of medicine/science.

I think all new doctors are 'text book' doctors for a while. A good bed-side manner and tact can't be taught and instead are developed over years of experience of doing it the wrong way. In the flashback with Christian, Jack looked only in his late 20s/early 30s so had probably only qualified a little time before which could be a reason why he was so to the point.

Yes, a good bed side manner does have to be developed and worked on over time although I still think there are many young doctors who still posses a better bed-side manner than Jack has.

Also, i think we have to remember that Jack's flashback in MoSMoF was only 2 years ago..maybe this is while he still posses some of his traits he displayed in that episode.

quote:

Originally posted by krekk:
Ok...I posted too early..


-Jack may think that he 'fixed' Sarah..but how could he have..he doesnt believe in miracles does he? Surely Sarah regained the use of her legs due to some secret Dharma involvement [theory]..maybe suggesting that Christian had something to do with it also..but not Jack, that was quite clear.I do not think it had anything to do with Dharma, since it was years before the crash. But I do not think Jack has ever said that he performed a miracle. Atleast I have never heard him say that..If he has then please tell me someone...

But the MoSMoF flashback was only 2 years before the crash. Also in my opinion rounding all of these people up and getting them to 'come' to the island would have taken Dharma or whoever years to plan so surely they would have started work on these people before the crash..only makes sense really. imo. Regarding the whole miracle thing, im referring to when he met Desmond and Des asked him if he believes in miracles..Jack says no..but we later find that Sarah gets 'fixed' and Jack has no explanation for this. Hence this is set up to make Jack think that miracles are possible imo. It is possibly Christian or Dharma's way of getting Jack to have an 'open mind'..something which he would later need on thre island...

quote:

-Jack made Claire run off into the jungle which also resulted in her being abducted by Ethan. Now if he was a good doctor wouldnt he have listened to his patient [Claire] in the first place and showed her that he believed her? I'll give you that one..

Why thankyou

quote:

-Jack witheld medication from Sawyer all because Kate wanted her key back..I mean, bad ethics or what!?..how mean can one man be? No matter what, Jack should'nt have witheld vital medication from Sawyer, just because his 'girlfriend' wanted her key back..and it wasnt even her key! He did not with hold trteatment. He threatened to, and I'm sorry to say, but he only did that because Kate lied about her real reason for wanting the case and made Jack feel it wasn't safe for Sawyer to have a case full of guns.

But thats no excuse..this thread is scrutinising the medical ethics of Jack the doctor..now surely you cannot say this was ethical of him? ..to threaten to withold medication from a patient who in order to gain barganing power..tut.

quote:

-When Locke got shot/grazed in the head by Shannon, Jack just stood there and smirked. He clearly let his personal rift with Locke get in the way of good doctor ethics. He should have at least ensured that Locke was ok. Yes, I do think he let his personal feelings cloud his judgement there.

Yeah, I agree. Another flaw that Jack has there..

quote:

-When Claire was giving birth he didnt even show any concern for her or her child. I know he was preoccupied with Boone but his attitude stunk. He could've at least shown 'some' conceren surely!? He was pumping his own blood into Boone at that point.

but surely he could have at least shown some concern?

quote:

-Which bring's me to Boone. The guy [Jack] basically got tunnel vision and went on his own little crusade, ignoring useful medical treatment form Sun and made sevearal terrible decisions. He was even going to mutilate the poor guy, I mean Jack, despite trying to save Boone, made bad bad decisions with regard to his medical treatment of Boone. If he had accepted Sun's help then at least Boone might have died in peace rather than in pain and heartache. But,when Boone had first got injured, I do not think he wanted to die either. Jack was trying to keep him alive till they found Shannon at least. It was one of the first things he said, 'find Shannon'. Jack did accept Suns help too, she found the 'needle' for him to use for the blood transfusion. Bot, Boone was never going to die in peace. In the beginning his lung was colapsed and he would have very slowly suffocated. BESIDES, Just say Jack had sat there and said, Ok, I'm not doing anything at all, I'm going to help Claire instead, he'd have been slated for that too.

Ok he did ask Chaz to find Shannon, i'll give you that but he wasnt exactly nice to Sun..he snapped at her on at least 2 occassions and ended up with egg on his face because she showed him things that would help him in his treatment of Boone. See, once again..just like the Shannon/inhaler/Sawyer situation he was too blinkered to see the obvious. You say that "Boone was never going to die in piece"..well it's better than dieing in pieces..Jack was going to chop his leg off, that was such a bad decision imo..why cause him unnecessary pain..and the potential for infection would have been sky-high!

quote:

I could continue but I think these are adequate examples of Jack's poor doctor/patient ethics and his poor treatment of patients.

I know he's got a difficult job on his hands looking after all those people, but can this be any excuse..I mean he puts himself on a maral pedestal and yet he frequently fails to deliver and adhere to good doctor ethics.

Is he a good doctor? [I know many of you like him as a man..but please focus on whether or not he's a good 'doctor' with good/bad ethics etc..no bias please being "fit" or "dishy" doesnt amount to being a good doctor either ]I think he is a decent doctor...I wouldn't say great, but these are not normal conditions he is working under..He did well with Rose in the first epppy, he jumped in and saved Boone when everyone else just stood there watching, he did save Charlie, through desperation or otherwse, he did save him. He saved Sawyer when Sayid punctured his arm, hopefully he will save him this time too...Give him a decent surgical room, some proper medical equiptment and some more staff, I'm sure he'd do better. I mean, you say he is on a one man crusade to save them all. He has no choice, he is the only doctor there..

I'll give you Rose and Charlie..by hook or crook he did save them but no way can I give you Sawyer..it was him who caused the whole torture situation..him and Sayid and just because he patched him up it doesnt take away from the fact that it was Jack's fault in the first place. And di he even apologise to Sawyer?..No he didnt..pah.

I think that you have all forgotten that on the island Jack isn't an official doctor on the island.

He just gives medical advice out of his own heart.

So he doesnt have to worry about bed-side manner and emotional clouding. - As it isn't as if he is an official doctor on the island.

LOL Roco.."dishy"...that word made me laugh. I think that Jacks knowledge as a doctor is invaluable on the island. He obviously knows his medical stuff. But as a doctor he doesnt have bedside manner. In short I'd be glad Jack was there if I was on the island and was ill or injured, but not because of his kind, caring, manner but just because he has that medical knowledge.

I'll give you Rose and Charlie..by hook or

quote:

crook he did save them but no way can I give you Sawyer..it was him who caused the whole torture situation..him and Sayid and just because he patched him up it doesnt take away from the fact that it was Jack's fault in the first place. And di he even apologise to Sawyer?..No he didnt..pah.

Ok... Jack DID NOT CAUSE the Sawyer torture situation...Sayid had his own reasons for wanting to torture Sawyer, and they had nothing to do with Jack..It was because of this... This is from Confidence man...Sayid had been whacked across the head while trying to get the radio working..

[Shot of a knife sharpening a stick to a point.]

SAYID: Locke, where were you last night, around sunset?

LOCKE: Well, I'm afraid the only witness to my whereabouts is the boar that I was skinning for our dinner. I heard you were trying to send out a distress call. So it would seem whoever attacked you has a reason for not wanting to get off the island. Maybe someone who is profiting from our current circumstances? And from what I've seen you and Mr. Sawyer share a certain animosity.

SAYID: No, he has an alibi. Just before I was struck, he set off a bottle rocket, a signal we had worked out -- 2 kilometers away. He wouldn't have the time to go. . .

LOCKE:Unless he found a way to time delay the fuse on his rocket.

SAYID: How could he possibly have. . .

LOCKE: Anyone who watches television knows how to improvise a slow fuse. Use a cigarette. [Locke offers Sayid his knife] Just in case there's a next time.

You see...Locke put the idea in Sayids head..He gave him a knife, he mentioned Sawyer and rattled Sayid making him angry. That is why Sayid wanted revenge. Then it was Sayid who came up with the idea...As follows....


[We see Jack walking out of the caves. Sayid follows.]

SAYID: Jack, what will happen if she doesn't get the medicine? [Jack shrugs] Then we have to make Sawyer give it to us.

JACK: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

SAYID:No, not you, me. I served 5 years in the Republican Guard.

JACK: I thought you were a communications officer.

SAYID: Part of my training entailed getting the enemy to communicate. Just give me 10 minutes with him. He'll give us the medicine. [Jack doesn't respond] Is that a yes?

JACK [taking a long moment]: Yes.


So, again..I do not accept that Jack tortured or came up with the idea. It clearly shows above that I am right. The only thing Jack was guilty of was standing by while Sayid did it and doing nothing, and then not apologising..That's it..He helped Sawyer after he had told Sayid to stop and Sayid went gun ho and stabbed him...Jack had already said at that point no more..


KATE: He doesn't have it.

JACK: What?

SAYID: He's lying. Can't you see that? He's been lying from the beginning. He doesn't want us to get off this island. That's why he attacked me. <<See, Sayid reveals his real reasoning behind the torture..Because Locke led him to believe Sawyer had attacked him..

JACK: Hold on a minute.

SAYID: He destroyed the transceiver.

JACK: You don't know that.

[Sayid runs back to Sawyer. Sawyer is loosening the bindings on his wrist. Sayid and Sawyer struggle. Sayid stabs him in the arm. Sayid holds his arms out, like it was an accident. Jack pulls the knife out, blood spurts out.]

Ok...That is my argument...

Well said K.

I think that Jack wasn't to blame for any of thses, he's a very accommplished doctor and seems to know a hell of a lot about medical stuff for a spinal surgeon.

Well , when I first watched Lost and witnessed Jack's doctoring ( is that a word ? ) , he just said a whole bunch of big words which were very technically so I just thought , ' meh , any doctor who can use vocabulary like that must be good ' . But come to think of it now I'm not so sure . He has helped out so much by being the doctor , it would've been very hard for the losties without him , but he has made his mistakes , some of what were very big . I didn't vote on the poll because it was missing the middle option . I'd go with something like ' he's an ok doctor , can be good , can make mistakes ' , or something along those lines .

quote:

Originally posted by krekk:
I'll give you Rose and Charlie..by hook or

quote:

crook he did save them but no way can I give you Sawyer..it was him who caused the whole torture situation..him and Sayid and just because he patched him up it doesnt take away from the fact that it was Jack's fault in the first place. And di he even apologise to Sawyer?..No he didnt..pah.

Ok... Jack DID NOT CAUSE the Sawyer torture situation...Sayid had his own reasons for wanting to torture Sawyer, and they had nothing to do with Jack..It was because of this... This is from Confidence man...Sayid had been whacked across the head while trying to get the radio working..

[Shot of a knife sharpening a stick to a point.]

SAYID: Locke, where were you last night, around sunset?

LOCKE: Well, I'm afraid the only witness to my whereabouts is the boar that I was skinning for our dinner. I heard you were trying to send out a distress call. So it would seem whoever attacked you has a reason for not wanting to get off the island. Maybe someone who is profiting from our current circumstances? And from what I've seen you and Mr. Sawyer share a certain animosity.

SAYID: No, he has an alibi. Just before I was struck, he set off a bottle rocket, a signal we had worked out -- 2 kilometers away. He wouldn't have the time to go. . .

LOCKE:Unless he found a way to time delay the fuse on his rocket.

SAYID: How could he possibly have. . .

LOCKE: Anyone who watches television knows how to improvise a slow fuse. Use a cigarette. [Locke offers Sayid his knife] Just in case there's a next time.

You see...Locke put the idea in Sayids head..He gave him a knife, he mentioned Sawyer and rattled Sayid making him angry. That is why Sayid wanted revenge. Then it was Sayid who came up with the idea...As follows....


[We see Jack walking out of the caves. Sayid follows.]

SAYID: Jack, what will happen if she doesn't get the medicine? [Jack shrugs] Then we have to make Sawyer give it to us.

JACK: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

SAYID:No, not you, me. I served 5 years in the Republican Guard.

JACK: I thought you were a communications officer.

SAYID: Part of my training entailed getting the enemy to communicate. Just give me 10 minutes with him. He'll give us the medicine. [Jack doesn't respond] Is that a yes?

JACK [taking a long moment]: Yes.


So, again..I do not accept that Jack tortured or came up with the idea. It clearly shows above that I am right. The only thing Jack was guilty of was standing by while Sayid did it and doing nothing, and then not apologising..That's it..He helped Sawyer after he had told Sayid to stop and Sayid went gun ho and stabbed him...Jack had already said at that point no more..


KATE: He doesn't have it.

JACK: What?

SAYID: He's lying. Can't you see that? He's been lying from the beginning. He doesn't want us to get off this island. That's why he attacked me. <<See, Sayid reveals his real reasoning behind the torture..Because Locke led him to believe Sawyer had attacked him..

JACK: Hold on a minute.

SAYID: He destroyed the transceiver.

JACK: You don't know that.

[Sayid runs back to Sawyer. Sawyer is loosening the bindings on his wrist. Sayid and Sawyer struggle. Sayid stabs him in the arm. Sayid holds his arms out, like it was an accident. Jack pulls the knife out, blood spurts out.]

Ok...That is my argument...

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there Krekk..well actually I dont disagree with you that it was 'mainly' Sayid's idea..thats true..it was. However, being the leader and the one that everyone [including Sayid] looks up to, the situation would never ever have transpired had Jack not agreed to it or allowed it to happen. Jack clearly wanted his own bit of retribution on Sawyer and he was also clouded by his inability to help Shannon so he basically lost the plot and aided..yes, aided Sayid in torturing Sawyer. By standing there he was supporting Sayid..in fact he may as well of egged him on and got the pom-poms out because as a leader, him standing there was great encouragement to Sayids deeds.

In no way am I denying that it was Sayids brainchild to torture Sawyer..but the point im trying to convey is that because he was leader and chief decision maker, Jack clearly supported the brutal torturing of Sawyer..he may not have got his hands dirty but those are