quote:

Originally posted by krekk:
I do not share your opinion at all..

I stand by what I say..

It was Lockes fault that Satid tortured Sawyer..

quote:

Originally posted by Audio Pineapple:

quote:

Originally posted by krekk:
I do not share your opinion at all..

I stand by what I say..

It was Lockes fault that Sayid tortured Sawyer..

But Sayid still seemed somewhat hesitant about torturing Sawyer.

Ok..Sayid seemed hesitant?? I do not share that opinion..
This is from CM...

[We see Jack walking out of the caves. Sayid follows.]

SAYID: Jack, what will happen if she doesn't get the medicine? [Jack shrugs] Then we have to make Sawyer give it to us.

JACK: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

SAYID:No, not you, me. I served 5 years in the Republican Guard.

JACK: I thought you were a communications officer.

SAYID: Part of my training entailed getting the enemy to communicate. Just give me 10 minutes with him. He'll give us the medicine. [Jack doesn't respond] Is that a yes?

JACK [taking a long moment]: Yes...

So you see, Sayid was the one who seemed very up for it..His idea in fact due to the fact that Locke had led him to believe Sawyer had hit him across the head.



If he had been completely sure about it, surely he would have gone ahead and do it. They knocked Sawyer out and didn’t wake him up until he was tied, so Sayid didn’t need help in it. He seeked an acceptance from Jack, hoping to find the knowledge that someone was supporting him, was agreeing with what he was going to do.

THEY, did not knock him out..I have just watched to be sure, it was Sayid that knocked him out.. I will give you the remorse thing though..I think Jack felt shamed but he lets his pride prevent him from apologising..That is wrong..Sayid however..Well, I cannot say since it's a spoiler..But..He did show remorse..Lots of remorse..

Put it this way – if you have a friend whom you share a mutual enemy with, and that friend listens to you and respects you. If s/he told you that they were going to, say, beat that enemy while he was helpless, and you did not say anything to stop them, you would be guilty as well, especially if you were standing there watching for a while before stepping in.
Well, that wasn’t too good a scenario but it seems basically the same thing. Yes, I agree with this totally.I am not saying Jack did nothing wrong, but I am saying as I have above, that standing by and watching is infact what he is guilty of..

quote:

Originally posted by Audio Pineapple:
I think I'm starting to understand Krekk - I thought that you were saying that Jack wasn't guilty of anything at all in relation to Sawyer's torture.

With regards to Sayid feeling hesitant, although he was willing to do so, I still think that he would have not gone ahead if Jack hadn't said that 'yes'.

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:

quote:

Originally posted by esn:
Of course hes a great doctor. his own dad reconises him has such in the real world. On the island he controlled Shannons breathing to a certain extent with that "jedi moment".

True but she still would've died if it wasnt for Sun's herbal remedy imo. Jack should have realised that eucalyptus was a viable option..he even chastised himself afterwards for not realising.
Fair enough Ill give you that but its not has if he would have the know how to make up alternative medicine

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How many doctors are open to alternative medicine? not many.

Trust me on this one, many are.. Medical science is more open than ever before to the possibilities of alternative medicine..also, when youre in a jungle and someone cannot breathe..i dont think eucalyptus is that much of a stretch for a man of science to consider using. I think it's a pretty logical option, it's just that Jack was too blinkered and hell bent on retribution that he failed to see what was literally right in front of his eyes.
Well the doctors Ive met havent been open to it

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He saved Roses and Charlies - how long did Charlie hang for,

I'll give you Rose..Charlie, like I said above, despite him saving his life, did seem down to luck more than anything..but I suppose this one is open to interpretation.
Well without the use of defibulators what else is meant to replicate those effects, but ahs you say open to interpertation

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and he nearly saved Boone with very little medical help and dispite the fact the dude had a collapsed lung - even in a hospital that would have been hard to do.

How did he 'almost save Boone' though ..he didnt look almost saved to me, lol..in fact Jack was just digging himself a hole and making things worse for Boone in my opinion. He did help Boone's lung but he certainly made Boone more ill [just ask Sun!] and chopping off his leg?..now what good would that have done!?

Er at least he might have lived, you are right he was a little to obessed with saving him but most doctors are arent they?

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He also performed a mircale on Sarah.

No he didnt..what miracle? How is this possible? If you ask me it was Christian and probabaly Dharma's advanced science that were responsible for her legs getting fixed. Remember throught this eppy Christian was trying to get Jack to have more hope and show more faith..what better way then to make him think that he miraculously saved the woman he was falling for!? For me, there was no miracle..only Dharma's science.thats open to specualtion, offically and from what we have seen he performed a miracle

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I think that he did show concern for her child and was noticablly worried, and wanted to make sure of the facts before giving out advice.

Ive watched that episode many times and I see no concern..he was very harsh and aloof even..he was also very snappy as if poor Claire could help when she went into labour.

Like I say we was bleeding into Boone at the time, you try not being snappy when your trying to save somones life or involved with somthing that in your view is more important

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Given that he was bleeding hes own blood into Boone at the time and afterwards wanted to ask Locke a few questions (lets be honest why wouldnt he not)

But who toild him to pour his [wrong] blod into Boone? This was an awful decision..they guy made a terrible choice. He just couldnt let go..Boone was beyond repair and even if he wasnt he should have either allowed other people like Sun to help or should've just made sure that Boone's final hours were peacful..his main duty should've been to find Shannon and not torture the poor man further.

But if a doctor feels there is a slight chance that they could save somones life, they have to do what is neccassary to save them. Would you just let somone die? He admitted that it wasnt the best option and knew the risks but was prepared to take them in order to save his life, surely that ought to be applused?

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Plus useful medical treatment from Sun? what medical treatment?

Who do you think gave him the 'needles' to do the blood transfusion..that was Sun. She also helped him deflate Boone's lung and offered Jack great advice and support which he threw back in her face. He was so selfish in his persuit of saving Boone's life..Boone's life wasnt his to play with.
Id hardly call it medical treatment. Boones life was his to save

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Any good doctor will try to save thier paitent and do what it takes.

But he wasnt 'his' patient..he was a patient. Jack had no right to block Sun out from helping.

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With regrards to Locke being shot - he could see it was only a scratch so why bother.

Im sorry, I cant accept that..this is what i mean about Jack taking the moral high ground and then contradicting himself..he said "we have to live together or die alone"...maybe he should have added a disclaimer on the end of that speech?? A good doctor would never ever disregard someone's medical needs because of his personal feeling towards that patient.
Ture i give you that but if he didnt have any medical needs?

quote:

With regards to Saywer he treated him even though the guy told him not to.

No he didnt..im talking about when he threatened Sawyer over the case key..he threatened that he wouldnt give Sawyer the drugs that he needed to make his arm better...an arm which Jack helped injure by the way, by allowing Sayid to torture him. tut!
Sayid was his own man, Jack didnt force Sayid to toruture him? why arent you having a go at Sayid more then? Ok he shouldnt have allowed it in the first place but still.

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Granted it was due to his guilt but it must have been tempted to let him die.

Oh my..thats a terrible thing to say esn! What had Sawyer done to Jack that justified the temptation to let him die?? TUT!
Ok I didnt mean it to come across quite like that but if somone is yelling at you to let them go and if that roles were reversed they would let you die, you wouldnt be slightly tempted given cirumstance?

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With regards to Claire he followed his docotors logic and tried to make her see sense. Yes ok hes bed side manner sucks but at least can we give him that?

Well if it was just that, then maybe..but as weve seen, there are a whole host of things which make this another negative notch on his bad doctor ethics list.

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With reagards to the key, he knew what was in it and didnt want guns to fall into the worng hands and was doing it to protect the rest of the group.

Then why couldnt he just reason with Sawyer instead of threatening him. Sawyer was in an affable mood, he could have just spoken to him reaosnably.Speak to Sayer resonably? please, Sawyer werent going to allow anyone to have that case And regardless, what gives Jack the right to think that he should dictate who owns the guns? ..as weve just seen in 'Collision', the man is a hypocrite and he is not exactly the best person to be in charge of guns is he!?
Well he was placed in charge by Locke none the less who else can he turst other than himself?

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In terms of his doctor ethics - well the situation they are in is going to stetch these a little but gernerally they are good - trying to save has many has possible, making sure of the saftey of the group are those not good ethics?

Im sorry, I cant agree with this..wouldnt the situation at hand make it even more paromount that a doctor apply good ethics and principle's to his medical care and choices? Especially comming from a man who consistently takes the moral high ground?

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_{Anti Spoiler Jedi, sworn to fight spoilers
Anti Spoiler Society -A.S.S
DOH - Dudes Of Hurley -Dude!!! Admissions Officer
I am everybody, yet I am nobody
Creator of first GUT about Lost on spoiler free forum}

quote:

Originally posted by Cavegirl:
I think Jack has 2 main problems being the island's doctor:

1) he is a control freak - and conditions on the island are out of his control
2) he is an overachiever/perfectionist

I expect he is a good doctor in real life where he has medical teams and equipment to back him up and his decisions are respected due to his years of overworking etc. However, on the island he seems unable to adapt.

To be a good island doctor he would need a much more patient and relaxed personality - like Locke - and need to be more willing to delegate and listen to other people's opinions and explain why he is not going along with them. He seems determined to act as if he is still in civilisation - he won't delegate responsibility to anyone who is not trained medical personnel. Which, of course, leaves all the work to him, and he can't cope.

He reminds me of a parent who has no patience to teach their child the skills they need for survive and long-sufferingly sighs, "Oh I'll do it" over every task. If he would trust his friends to be capable of learning, his burden would be much reduced.

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_{Anti Spoiler Jedi, sworn to fight spoilers
Anti Spoiler Society -A.S.S
DOH - Dudes Of Hurley -Dude!!! Admissions Officer
I am everybody, yet I am nobody
Creator of first GUT about Lost on spoiler free forum}

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
Also, Jack probably is a good 'text-book' doctor..but dont forget that even Christian [in MoSMoF] wanted him to apply a bit more 'hope' to his medical standards. This indicates that Jack is/was seriously lacking in certain aspects of medicine/science.

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_{Anti Spoiler Jedi, sworn to fight spoilers
Anti Spoiler Society -A.S.S
DOH - Dudes Of Hurley -Dude!!! Admissions Officer
I am everybody, yet I am nobody
Creator of first GUT about Lost on spoiler free forum}

quote:

-Jack tortured a man for those inhalers..i mean, how bad is this? He almost killed a man to save the life of another human being, based on no 'firm' evidence that Sawyer was witholding the inhalers. Is this right? ..Surely not!

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-Jack saved Charlie..yes, but im sure it was more down to luck than anything you know. I mean, the way he hamnmered at his chest, whilst it is a medical technique it also appeared that he was just, well, hitting and hoping.

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-Which bring's me to Boone. The guy [Jack] basically got tunnel vision and went on his own little crusade, ignoring useful medical treatment form Sun and made sevearal terrible decisions. He was even going to mutilate the poor guy.

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- But he wasnt 'his' patient..he was a patient. Jack had no right to block Sun out from helping.

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:
Sorry For the record, I'm not necessarily expressing my opinions here - I think both Jack and Ana Lucia should be applauded for saving the lives of both Charlie and Emma, though I'd question whether you really can restart hearts by thumping them - but I wanted to show you how you seem, as far as I can gather, to be alternately praising and condemning alarmingly similar action depending on who's performing them.

quote:

Originally posted by *sweet pea*:


I'm certainly not trying to speak for Roco here...I'm sure he'll have his own point to make in response...but it seems to me that the main difference is not so much just Jack's actions more how they contradict the way he wants to be perceived. Or even how he perceives himself. Imo AL is a natural leader. She is quite aware of how her actions/motives can be somewhat questionable but has the courage of her convictions. Jack appears to be unable to reconcile some of his decisions with the person he'd like to be.

quote:

Originally posted by *sweet pea*:
I totally see your point, Murg, in that you can't condemn someone for the same action that you condone in another. I just think in the case of AL and Nathan, she was acting for the good/safety of her fellow survivors using her instinct (under terrible circumstances). Jack I think makes decisions that are directly influenced by his own personal demons/or his personal feelings toward the person involved. For me it's what drives them and how they reflect on their actions which is more important.

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:

quote:

Originally posted by *sweet pea*:
I totally see your point, Murg, in that you can't condemn someone for the same action that you condone in another. I just think in the case of AL and Nathan, she was acting for the good/safety of her fellow survivors using her instinct (under terrible circumstances). Jack I think makes decisions that are directly influenced by his own personal demons/or his personal feelings toward the person involved. For me it's what drives them and how they reflect on their actions which is more important.

Yes, I think that's a fair observation on their specific motivations. It's just that I was arguing this point elsewhere from the initial premise that members of her team ought to feel ashamed of their decision not to stick by her while she tied up Sayid with the remains of a dying man's stretcher because of all she'd done for them. I maintain that Ana's judgement, regardless of what motivated it, has led her to perform appalling and misguided acts in which no-one, whatever she may have done for them in the past, ought to feel obliged to remain complicit. I do take your point.