I know Locke thinks his destiny is to be on the island, he's mentioned it a couple of times But having seen his life, in his flashbacks, I wouldn't have had much faith in destiny, as he seemed to get a real bum deal.
When do you think he actually started to believe in faith and could he have been a scientific believer before. I think the games he liked to play are probably more on the science side, with the manoevures(sp) and things.

Hmmm... Perhaps he thought that as science didn't get him anywhere, he would try faith?

Mind you, playing Risk may involve a bit of faith. OK, so they aren't real soldiers you guide, but the whole thing is based on the faith you have in your decisions/men/stengths etc (I think!)

You did think about that didn't you?? Very well explained. Do you think Emily Locke was in the mental institute before, during or after she had Locke??? And although Emily said she did it for the money, didn't a private investigator find out who John's Dad was. Another conspiracy theory me thinks!!!!!!!

Hopefully Locke destiny will be his death. I can't see any other way out for him. The island will take his soul!!

Ooh that's a bit harsh... It could make him mad though, he's on the way allready!!!

I thought the whole kidney thing could have been a set up, so Anthony Cooper didn't even have the operation. Locke mentioned something about having his back shaved, but there wasn't a reply from Antony. I thought they let him out of hospital a bit too quick and the nurse didn't even know that they were related, I'd have thought that would have been on their notes as donor/ reciever. I don't know what they could have done to Locke but I don't think they took his kidney for a transplant. By the way, this may be a stupid question but would they remove the kidney from the back. I assumed they'd open you up from the front. It's not relevant to Lost but I thought about it at the time

Yes they take it from the back.... it's also a much more serious op for the donor than it is for the recipient.... They don't always have the name of the recipient on the donor's files to protect peeps ID. Also the nurse did know that Locke was a donor coz she said it was a great thing he had done.

I'm sure you all already know this and sorry i'm not very good at following shows but Anthony Cooper isn't actually Locke's dad is he? (sorry for my stupidity) I believe Emily Locke was paid by Anthony Cooper to lead Locke too him and eventually giving him his kidney. But thats just about as far as I can guess!

<I think the games he liked to play are probably more on the science side, with the manoevures(sp) and things.>

The game imagery strikes me, at least in part, as a homage to "The Prisoner", in which state manipulation of the individual was likened to chess, in the famous phrase "We're all pawns". In the "Village" of "The Prisoner", free will was an illusion, and it is notable that many of the castaways have been shockingly manipulated in their past, no more so than Locke. He is surrounded by game imagery, and has assuredly become the pawn of the island or its resident "monster".
Also see Claire's nightmare at the start of "Raised by Another", in which Locke (with his black / white contact lenses, like game counters) is laying out ordinary playing cards as if they were Tarot cards. This introduces the idea that fate itself is a game (playthings of the gods are we, and so forth). Locke's favourite childhood game, "Mouse Trap", is also a random, chance-based game, in which most players are "eliminated" by an extremely complex trap.
Basically, I think the game imagery is less connected to the science / faith theme and more involved with the fate / free will aspects. Locke, in particular, for all his faith, seems to want to pull the strings, lying as it suits him, and cheerfully manipulating those around him. However, as "Deus ex Machina" and his humiliation in "Exodus" demonstrate, he remains very much the "pawn" of far more insidious forces.

Hmmm I like this. I dont belive that Locke was hyrbidised but i belive that his parents, or at least one of them (has all the losties parents, execpt obviously Walt and Aaron) Was apart of a secret society that escaped the island. I feel that they controlled their destinys in some way has apart of thier plan to bring them to the island in the right state so to speak to unite the faith and science sides on the island. I feel that being the sharp man that he is, I feel that Locke is aware that somthing outside of his control is going on, guiding in someway, hence his belief in wantin to to what hes destined. However, has we've seen, he doesnt quite know what hes destiny is but does feel hes guided in someway.

I'm not sure about Locke's father being involved in any conspiracy, apart from the distinct possibility that he has sired a thousand illegitimate children all over America, whom he only ever calls upon in the event of organ failure. Mind you, his organ-bank philosophy is disturbingly similar to the aliens from Gerry Anderson's "UFO", but I doubt I'll reach any sane conclusion by reading too much into that...

However, I find it very interesting that Locke's mother was institutionalised in the same hospital that Hurley and "Numbers" Leonard seem to have been inmates of. Goodness knows what island-related forces she may have come into contact with there, and which may have influenced her to locate her son, suggesting a double irony: Locke's father may have thought he was manipulating both his son and his former mistress, but it is more likely that his kidney-stealing plan was part of a greater game in which he was only ever a pawn.

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Yes, i reckon that Emily Locke was admitted to a mental institute after she had Locke

Very true D-Roc. If you had the devil for a son it would make you want to be admitted to a mental institute.

It makes you wonder though why Locke's Foster Mother never adopted him(we know he's a bit odd but I'm sure she loved him!!) Anyway he was still Locke and he never changed his name to the family name did he?? I hope that makes sense... I also think his Mum found him a little too easy, as did Locke "find" his Father.

quote:

Originally posted by Hordriss:
The game imagery strikes me, at least in part, as a homage to "The Prisoner", in which state manipulation of the individual was likened to chess, in the famous phrase "We're all pawns". In the "Village" of "The Prisoner", free will was an illusion, and it is notable that many of the castaways have been shockingly manipulated in their past, no more so than Locke. He is surrounded by game imagery, and has assuredly become the pawn of the island or its resident "monster".
Also see Claire's nightmare at the start of "Raised by Another", in which Locke (with his black / white contact lenses, like game counters) is laying out ordinary playing cards as if they were Tarot cards. This introduces the idea that fate itself is a game (playthings of the gods are we, and so forth). Locke's favourite childhood game, "Mouse Trap", is also a random, chance-based game, in which most players are "eliminated" by an extremely complex trap.
Basically, I think the game imagery is less connected to the science / faith theme and more involved with the fate / free will aspects. Locke, in particular, for all his faith, seems to want to pull the strings, lying as it suits him, and cheerfully manipulating those around him. However, as "Deus ex Machina" and his humiliation in "Exodus" demonstrate, he remains very much the "pawn" of far more insidious forces.

Great post Hordriss! As Zinzi said in another thread you have contributed a number of great posts in such a short time - welcome to the forum!

I agree with you that Locke has become the 'pawn' of the island/security system to an extent, and, either knowingly or unknowingly, is following out it's orders/wishes.
And I agree that Locke wants to be in control of his situation to the greatest extent he can be...to control his 'destiny' perhaps.

I think that Locke is so grateful to the island for all that it's given him, such as his legs, a sense of purpose, a position of authority amongst the other survivors etc that he's blinded [to an extent] to the island's faults and its true intents towards him. It does seem like Locke is being controlled to an extent by the island, and I guess it remains to be seen if the island will simply use him and then discard him, like his parents have done before.

Thanks Kiowa Warrior, you embolden me to write a little more on this theme...

What a shame Locke is so charismatic and fascinating a character, as he's often more than a bit of a swine (whereas heroic old Jack is so insufferably flawless and lacking in sparkle, that you just yearn for an anti-hero to come on screen, but I digress...). Locke's faith is so distinct from the understated faith of Rose and Sayid, that you suspect what he really desires is reflected glory - that he is aware of his messiah-like potential and keen to cultivate it, but at what cost?

I never thought I'd see the day that American primetime TV would launch a scathing critique of religious attitudes, but we're already headed in that direction. Here's hoping the writers keep their nerve.

Of course, I understand that they had to tone down the incest sub-plot, but with any luck that's all the censors will be getting.

quote:

Originally posted by Hordriss:
Thanks Kiowa Warrior, you embolden me to write a little more on this theme...
You're a very good writer, and I love your use of language in your posts.

What a shame Locke is so charismatic and fascinating a character, as he's often more than a bit of a swine (whereas heroic old Jack is so insufferably flawless and lacking in sparkle, that you just yearn for an anti-hero to come on screen, but I digress...). Locke's faith is so distinct from the understated faith of Rose and Sayid, that you suspect what he really desires is reflected glory - that he is aware of his messiah-like potential and keen to cultivate it, but at what cost?
Yes I think Locke is definately the most intriguing and fascinating character in Lost, as he is, like you say, almost an anti-hero. On the surface he seems to do terrible things, like hitting Sayid over the head, leading Boone to the plane, tying Boone up etc, but (in my opinion) those actions can be justifed and explained to a rather large extent.
I know that all of the survivors have suffered pain and hardships in their pre-island life, but (to me) there's just something about Locke that makes you want him to have an almost better life on the island, in light of his life before the crash.

You're right about Locke being full on with his faith and belief in the island - almost as if he's proud to be serving it - or possibly out of fear, as he feels that if he doesn't actively show his support/alligence to the island it will turn against him and perhaps take back the use of his legs?

Nice point about Locke wanting refleced glory - I think one of the things Locke has always desired is the admiration and repsect of people [not to mention affection], and now he has the opportunity to acquire these things on the island he is going all out to get them.

It could be argued that Locke doesn't really have a lot to lose, and so he is willing to risk what he does have in order to maintain (and further) his status on the island - perhaps he realises that he will have to pay a price for the things the island has given him, but he simply choses to disregard this warning, as he is now the happiest and contented that he has been for a while.

I never thought I'd see the day that American primetime TV would launch a scathing critique of religious attitudes, but we're already headed in that direction. Here's hoping the writers keep their nerve.

Of course, I understand that they had to tone down the incest sub-plot, but with any luck that's all the censors will be getting.

Thank you very much for the compliment, Kiowa Warrior! A long time ago I tried to get into fantasy writing, but all the publishers and agents I tried told me my style was too absurdly convoluted to ever catch on. Obviously, I was born in the wrong country...

quote:

You're right about Locke being full on with his faith and belief in the island - almost as if he's proud to be serving it - or possibly out of fear, as he feels that if he doesn't actively show his support/alligence to the island it will turn against him and perhaps take back the use of his legs?

I think the most definite proof of this - and of the island's basically malevolent nature - was in "Deus ex...", where it tormented Locke with this very possibility in order to manipulate him. Then, in order to convince him that he wasn't being used and hung out to dry, it switched on the light in the hatch to quieten his despair. Whether it is using him to open the hatch or (more likely, given the events of "Exodus" and Boone's death) it was just tricking him into guarding it from the other castaways, I think it fairly clear by now that it does not have his best interests at heart. No doubt when he finally realises that he is again being manipulated and abused by something that he had virtually idolised (but which turned out to be a hollow idol full of heroin, for want of a better image), the series will have reached a climactic point.

Yes, I think there will come a time when Locke will either come to the conclusion himself, or be shown, that the island does not care for him as much as he likes to believe, and that it is a much darker force than he imagined.

I like to think that when (indeed if) Locke does realise such a thing, he will have the courage to stand up to the island instead of crumbling and bowing down to its demands in order to minimise his pain and suffering.

I also like to believe that Locke will oppose the island in order to protect/save the other survivors, and by doing so - letting go of his complete faith in the island to provide him with what he wants (respect, affection, a position of authority) - he will actually get those things he craves from the other survivors as a result of his own actions, and they will be real, rather than an artificial sense of them from the unknown entity(s) that make up the island.

Excellent writing Hordriss & Ki. I would love to add to this, but maybe not so skillfully as yourselves.

I am rather concerned at what Locke considers his destiny to be. Where does he think the island is leading him. What is the island going to give him in the end. I have a feeling that Lockes destiny is going to be nothing like what he may be expecting it to be.

Locke has been mislead by his biological mother. By is supposed father. He has trouble with relationships, hence the chat line. He is laughed at, at work.

Locke is reveling in his new found image. But is it another delusion. Is he going to be let down again? How will he cope if the islands destiny does not live up to his expectations?