I re-watched 'Deus Ex Machnia' the other day, and I started to devolp a new, crazy theory from it. When Locke is giving the infromation about his parents by the private dectective, he is reluctent to give him his fathers information, because: "Here's the thing -- your mother sought you out, so she's fair game. But this guy -- maybe he doesn't even know you exist. I've done this enough times to know this stuff isn't meant to be, even though it may feel that way. But this probably won't have a happy ending. So, do you want it, or not?"

So this makes me think, were the 'signs' that the island sending him telling him not to open the Hatch? Perhaps that it was not his destiny to open the Hatch as he thought, because by trying to he caused the death of Boone, found the heroin, which Charlie has found (which may or may not cause a relapse, I don't know). Locke said early in another episode to Boone that they need Sayid on their side, but when Sayid finds about the Hatch he wants him to leave it alone and not open it. So perhaps that Locke really wasn't meant to open the Hatch.

I know there is some flaws in the theory that at the end of the episode the light came on it the Hatch, almost as some kind of guiding light. And also the title Deus Ex Machina refers to Greek tradgies, it which a god would come down at the end of a play and sort everything out.

Do you think the theory is pausable?

Well, there are a number of other clues as to whether or not Locke was meant to open the hatch. For example, Walt - in I think the first Exodus of S1 (correct me if I'm wrong) says to Locke, when Locke touches him;
"Don't open it Mr Locke"
"Don't open what?"
"That thing. Just don't open it"

I'm not sure though - I mean saying that Locke isn't "meant" to open the hatch presupposes some kind of 'destiny,' which whilst is believed by Locke, may not play a part in Lost as a whole.

I've always believed that Locke was "special" but you could be right in the fact that he is special because his destiny wasn't meant as he sees it. He thought it was his destiny to go on his walkabout too,yet it seems that wasn't his destiny either!!]
If he never found his Father(which I still think is quite unbelievable that the investigator found out who he was??) he wouldn't have been let down so would probably have carried on with his normal quiet life.
Good observation, I like it.

One thing we do know for certain is that the light in the hatch was an absolute red herring, shaggy dog etc. Or to be more literal, it was Desmond taking a peak at the outside world (as opposed to God giving Locke a boost).

Every time I watch a "hatch" scene in S1 I am stricken with the thought of Desmond playing his incredibly camp Mama Cass record, mixing his breakfast shakes, reading "The Third Policeman" etc. while poor Locke is gazing in fanatical religious awe at his back door. So much for American writers having no sense of irony...

I do think the island was doing its best to prevent Locke from opening the hatch. After his most serious attack upon it (with the trebuchet), the island gave him a dream-vision which directly resulted in Boone's death, thus - or very nearly - preventing Boone from telling anyone else about the hatch. The island "security system" attempted to abduct (and possibly kill) Locke when he was preparing to blow the hatch open (in "Exodus" 3), and was only stopped with a stick of dynamite straight in its bowels. Notably, we haven't seen "Lostzilla" since then, suggesting that Jack managed to inflict serious harm on some infrastructure of the island (You can hear a definite "clang" when he drops the stick).

Since then, no attempts have been made to keep anyone away from the hatch, excepting the garbled words of ghostly Walt: "Don't push button... button bad." And Walt himself was keen to keep Locke out of the Swan Base (advising him "Don't open that thing" in "Born to Run"). Not forgetting Hurley's understandable reservations (bearing in mind the "curse" of the numbers).

One small plot hole, though: if the island doesn't want people pressing the button, then why not just wipe them out with its prodigious bag of lethal tricks? (Deadly, seemingly controlled animals, apparitions to scare the bejeezus out of them, and not to mention our dear old monster) I'll let you know when I think of something plausible...

Well it's quite possible that Locke's fanatism with destiny and purpose was driving him to somewhere he shouldnt. As Paradroid pointed out, it now appears that his 'light' from beyond was nothing more than mere coincidence. So, it could indeed be argued that Locke was in fact ignoring the 'warning signs' [eg the SS attack in exodus] in pursuit of his self-believing purpose.

However, whilst i respect this view and see it as credible im not entirely convinced that the island didnt want Locke to open the hatch.. for one thing they 'fixed' his legs..why do that if they didnt want him getting up to mischief..also the vision, why send him that vision of the beachcraft if they didnt want to lead him to opening the hatch?

There are several other reasons which i could use to back up the argument 'for' the island wanting him to open the hatch which escape me at this moment.

So, i believe that one of two possibilities is likely..

1. Like i said, the island did want him to open the hatch..however they threw a few 'tests' his way to strengthen him etc..

2. There are two forces at work here..one who wanted Locke to open the hatch..and another who didnt want him to open the hatch..

I'm not sure the light was a 'co-incidence' you see. I agree with Paradroid that Desmond was indeed taking a look at Locke, 'sussing him out' so-to-speak. But that's against the point.

Anyway, I'm inclined to believe the latter of KoR-evo's points, in that I believe there are two groups of others; one 'good', one 'bad' (for want of better words). The 'bad' group were the group who took Locke's ability to use his legs away from him, but they were overcome [doesn't good always prevail! ] by the 'good' group who wanted Locke to open the hatch.

But that, as I was typing it, presumes Goodwin knew about the hatch (as one of the others) yet his reaction in The Other 48 Days seems to show otherwise. Ahhhh :S I dunno

quote:

Originally posted by Hypnotrix:
I'm not sure the light was a 'co-incidence' you see. I agree with Paradroid that Desmond was indeed taking a look at Locke, 'sussing him out' so-to-speak. But that's against the point.

Anyway, I'm inclined to believe the latter of KoR-evo's points, in that I believe there are two groups of others; one 'good', one 'bad' (for want of better words). The 'bad' group were the group who took Locke's ability to use his legs away from him, but they were overcome [doesn't good always prevail! ] by the 'good' group who wanted Locke to open the hatch.

But that, as I was typing it, presumes Goodwin knew about the hatch (as one of the others) yet his reaction in The Other 48 Days seems to show otherwise. Ahhhh :S I dunno

maybe the others are not bad or evil but amoral, if they we're that evil then they'd kill the ones who they don't want for example
the island could have a role in who is picked or not

quote:

Originally posted by Hypnotrix:
I'm not sure the light was a 'co-incidence' you see. I agree with Paradroid that Desmond was indeed taking a look at Locke, 'sussing him out' so-to-speak. But that's against the point.

True..that is possible..although i tend to think considering Desmonds suprised reaction upon meeting Locke that he merely turned on his light which relfected off the mirrors etc and gave Locke his [false] sign on approval. Though, granted..your POV works just aswell, if not better..except the fact that Desmond looked really shocked to see another human being..wouldnt he had been expecting someone had he been aware of another presence outside the hatch?

quote:

Anyway, I'm inclined to believe the latter of KoR-evo's points, in that I believe there are two groups of others; one 'good', one 'bad' (for want of better words). The 'bad' group were the group who took Locke's ability to use his legs away from him, but they were overcome [doesn't good always prevail! ] by the 'good' group who wanted Locke to open the hatch.

Hmm, not sure about all this 'good' and 'bad' terminology..how about dark and light or light and dark as Locke put it to Walt in 2.1? I just think it's a major assumption that one group is wholelly 'good' and the other wholelly 'bad'..?

Whislt i am adament that there are two groups of Others..i doubt that they were the ones who fixed Lockes legs? ..Unless [correct me if im mistaken] youre suggesting that one group of Others and the island are one in the same thing? ..I would be more inclined to agree with this..though i still suspect that the island is a seperate entity [with maybe a few ex-island scientists now part of one tribe of 'Others']..manipulating and indeed waging war with the 2 sets of Others...a 3-way war/battle if you will..

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But that, as I was typing it, presumes Goodwin knew about the hatch (as one of the others) yet his reaction in The Other 48 Days seems to show otherwise. Ahhhh :S I dunno

Yeah, i think its pretty clear that he didnt know about the hatch..or certainly that he wasnt expecting to stumble upon it..[imo]

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
However, whilst i respect this view and see it as credible im not entirely convinced that the island didnt want Locke to open the hatch.. for one thing they 'fixed' his legs..why do that if they didnt want him getting up to mischief..also the vision, why send him that vision of the beachcraft if they didnt want to lead him to opening the hatch?

I think (if my theory were correct, I don't have that much belief in it myself I'm just playing devils advocate) that like with the flashback, Locke had the information of something that would lead to trouble (his father stole his kidney) and on the island he was given the vision which he choose to follow which lead to Boone's death. In the quote I put in my first post the dectective does warn Locke not to do it, but he still does, much like he sees the bloodied Boone, but still carries on. I can't answer why the island did give him his legs in the first place if not to open the Hacth- that befuddles me. But, remember that in 'Deus Ex Machina' Locke began to lose his legs when after the failed attempt to smash the glass, and lost the use of his legs the futher he progressed towards the beechcraft.

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True..that is possible..although i tend to think considering Desmonds suprised reaction upon meeting Locke that he merely turned on his light which relfected off the mirrors etc and gave Locke his [false] sign on approval. Though, granted..your POV works just aswell, if not better..except the fact that Desmond looked really shocked to see another human being..wouldnt he had been expecting someone had he been aware of another presence outside the hatch?
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Slight deviation from the discussion, but I seem to remember Desmond seemed to be expecting someone from his first encounter with Locke and Kate. He asks "Are you him"? and Locke kind of plays along with it, seeing Des is a bit unhinged, so he says, "yes I am!" and then Desmond soon susses him out and says "you're not him". So Des was expecting a mystery someone...

Maybe the island / others thought that Locke could get injured in opening the hatch, perhaps he has a greater destiny and they were trying to warn him off.

The most heartbreaking thing about Deus Ex Machina for me, is when Locke has his dream, you can clearly see Boone is injured, with cuts and blood all over his body and face, his clothes all torn. Yet Locke, noticing every other detail, even what Boone was saying, didn’t take this into account.
If he had, surely he would have realised Boone would get injured, and not send him into the plane.

If Dharma / Others are running experiments on the Losties and Tailies, surely they won’t want cross-contamination. Desmond has been down the hatch for what looks like a long time, constantly pushing the button. If, like many people believe, the button is nothing but a mind-game, by other people entering the hatch you would never see the end of the Desmond experiment, because he ran away – yet never stopped pushing the button without knowing it would be pushed. If that makes sense.

The hatch does say "Quarrantine" on the inside, which should have put him off.

quote:

I've done this enough times to know this stuff isn't meant to be, even though it may feel that way. But this probably won't have a happy ending. So, do you want it, or not?"

So this makes me think, were the 'signs' that the island sending him telling him not to open the Hatch?

To be fair, I don't think anyone could be expected to remember a short conversation years before whenever they follow their gut feelings - I just can't see this as being a sign.

quote:

Locke said early in another episode to Boone that they need Sayid on their side, but when Sayid finds about the Hatch he wants him to leave it alone and not open it.

Also here, I don't think him saying he wants Sayid on his side, means that Locke has placed Sayid's wisdom over his own. By opening the hatch, he's still on Sayid's side (well, not really as he'd already lied continuously and whacked him over the head - but it was merely a disagreement), they just did not agree on opening. I actually find it bizarre that someone would be against opening a completely out place hatch on an island they've been stranded on for weeks. It just doesn't make sense (to me anyway); surely anything out of the norm should be investigated.

quote:

One thing we do know for certain is that the light in the hatch was an absolute red herring, shaggy dog etc. Or to be more literal, it was Desmond taking a peak at the outside world (as opposed to God giving Locke a boost).

I wouldn't agree with this - as we know, The Island has the ability to influence people, whether it be through dreams, whispers, hallucinations or whatever. I don't think it is hard to believe that The Island could merely have given Desmond some sort of impetus at that time to appease a disillusioned Locke crying over the hatch, and I indeed believe that this is what happened. I wouldn't like to put something like that down to just coincidence.

quote:

One small plot hole, though: if the island doesn't want people pressing the button, then why not just wipe them out with its prodigious bag of lethal tricks? (Deadly, seemingly controlled animals, apparitions to scare the bejeezus out of them, and not to mention our dear old monster) I'll let you know when I think of something plausible...

It may just be guiding them and does have a use for them - the just don't always do what it wants.

quote:

So, it could indeed be argued that Locke was in fact ignoring the 'warning signs' [eg the SS attack in exodus] in pursuit of his self-believing purpose.

Locke looked really surprised at this points - as we've seen before he's stood his ground and came out without a scratch before. It could possibly have been a warning sign misinterpreted

quote:

i tend to think considering Desmonds suprised reaction upon meeting Locke that he merely turned on his light which relfected off the mirrors etc

I agree, I don't think Desmond was looking through the hatch (what would he see anyway, clouds?) and I always assumed what you have. :P

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The most heartbreaking thing about Deus Ex Machina for me, is when Locke has his dream, you can clearly see Boone is injured, with cuts and blood all over his body and face, his clothes all torn. Yet Locke, noticing every other detail, even what Boone was saying

Actually when I first saw his dream and heard of "T(h)eresa", I thought he was seeing into the past (like with the plane) - just that Boone was the same age because
a) so we/he could recognise hime
b) no point in getting another actor for 5 seconds

For this reason I was surprised that Boone was injured and so, killed - I think Locke was too. :P

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Originally posted by orson welles:

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
However, whilst i respect this view and see it as credible im not entirely convinced that the island didnt want Locke to open the hatch.. for one thing they 'fixed' his legs..why do that if they didnt want him getting up to mischief..also the vision, why send him that vision of the beachcraft if they didnt want to lead him to opening the hatch?

I think (if my theory were correct, I don't have that much belief in it myself I'm just playing devils advocate) that like with the flashback, Locke had the information of something that would lead to trouble (his father stole his kidney) and on the island he was given the vision which he choose to follow which lead to Boone's death. In the quote I put in my first post the dectective does warn Locke not to do it, but he still does, much like he sees the bloodied Boone, but still carries on. I can't answer why the island did give him his legs in the first place if not to open the Hacth- that befuddles me. But, remember that in 'Deus Ex Machina' Locke began to lose his legs when after the failed attempt to smash the glass, and lost the use of his legs the futher he progressed towards the beechcraft.

Yeah, I always believed that the island took away or took back the use of his legs because they were both testing his resolve and also because they [the island] wanted Boone to be the one to go up into the plane so that he could die..thus the sacrificial lamb which was hinted in Lockes vision.. ..The way I see it was the Boone didnt have enough faith..he began to question and doubt not only his leader but also the island..so it seems likely that the island thought this to be holding Locke back and so devised a plan for Boone to be taken out whilst alos 'testing' Lockes faith..which included taking [the use of] his legs back.. Thats the way I saw it at the time..havent given it much thought since though

Can i just say Locke wasnt meant to open the hatch...then he cant stay well away from things...and he would of done anything to look inside..as 'it was his destiny'..he would of traded everyone with the 'others' if need be...

hes a shifty guy..i dont like him...

and that all i have on the arguement of Locke for the moment

which is actually kind of pathetic piece..lol