I was just thinking..was it a bit ungrateful of Bernard and Libby to just leave AL the way in which they did..afterall she had done for them?

I mean, as Bernard said, "I'm going Ana. I don't want to be a part of this. I know everything you've done for us, and I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for you. But I'm going."

But yet they both bailed out on her..they were alive because of her and yet they cut her no "slack" as she put it.

Also, when Libby said, "I just don't think you're the best judge of character. I was with you when you put Nathan in the pit."

I mean..it was Libby's suspicions of Nathen that made AL take the plunge in putting him down there and yet she says that AL isnt the best judge of character..HA!

I just think it was a bit rude of them..I can understand Bernie wanting to get back to Rose, but Libby had nothing to get back to.

Did they owe AL more than that? Should they have at least waited with her until Mike brought her the stuff? Any thoughts?

well they would have probably survived without AL, but i see where your coming from.

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
I was just thinking..was it a bit ungrateful of Bernard and Libby to just leave AL the way in which they did..afterall she had done for them?

I mean, as Bernard said, "I'm going Ana. I don't want to be a part of this. I know everything you've done for us, and I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for you. But I'm going."

But yet they both bailed out on her..they were alive because of her and yet they cut her no "slack" as she put it.

Also, when Libby said, "I just don't think you're the best judge of character. I was with you when you put Nathan in the pit."

I mean..it was Libby's suspicions of Nathen that made AL take the plunge in putting him down there and yet she says that AL isnt the best judge of character..HA!

I just think it was a bit rude of them..I can understand Bernie wanting to get back to Rose, but Libby had nothing to get back to.

Did they owe AL more than that? Should they have at least waited with her until Mike brought her the stuff? Any thoughts?

I think Bernard in particular expressed an admirable degree of sympathy and respect given the circumstances. Ana Lucia may have saved his life on any number of occasions. That doesn't mean she owns it.

i agree. i'd have tought that Bernard and Libby would have at least stayed with AL until they knew what she was going to do. Even if they didn't really like her, i think they owed it to her to stick by her

Whatever happened to "Its lord of the flies out there" and "Each man & woman for themselves"

Frankly, if I were in Bernards or Libbys postion I would have been worried that she was going to shoot me, she was really unstable out there!

quote:

Originally posted by haelle03:
well they would have probably survived without AL, but i see where your coming from.

Not to sure they would have survived without her though.it was only her who suspected Goodwin afterall..

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
I was just thinking..was it a bit ungrateful of Bernard and Libby to just leave AL the way in which they did..afterall she had done for them?

I mean, as Bernard said, "I'm going Ana. I don't want to be a part of this. I know everything you've done for us, and I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for you. But I'm going."

But yet they both bailed out on her..they were alive because of her and yet they cut her no "slack" as she put it.

Also, when Libby said, "I just don't think you're the best judge of character. I was with you when you put Nathan in the pit."

I mean..it was Libby's suspicions of Nathen that made AL take the plunge in putting him down there and yet she says that AL isnt the best judge of character..HA!

I just think it was a bit rude of them..I can understand Bernie wanting to get back to Rose, but Libby had nothing to get back to.

Did they owe AL more than that? Should they have at least waited with her until Mike brought her the stuff? Any thoughts?

I think Bernard in particular expressed an admirable degree of sympathy and respect given the circumstances. Ana Lucia may have saved his life on any number of occasions. That doesn't mean she owns it.

Quite right Murgatroyd..however I dont think she did ever claim to own his life..but considering that she saved him from falling from that tree and also kept him alive from Goodwin..not to mentoin other perils that they must have encountered, I think she's within her rights to feel a little let down by them. I mean..he would have seen Rose..he knew they were near camp..couldnt he have waited a few more hours, or is he that selfish?

quote:

Originally posted by DJK:
i agree. i'd have tought that Bernard and Libby would have at least stayed with AL until they knew what she was going to do. Even if they didn't really like her, i think they owed it to her to stick by her

Yeah..they owed her that much. I felt so sorry for AL..she did so much not just for them but for the whole group, no one, not even Eko, did more for them than AL did.

Am I right in saying she turned the gun on Libby telling her to tie Sayid up? If so, then you cant really blame Libby for just wanting to get away from the situation and to the other camp, especially as Bernard was going. And personally I think Bernard was totally justified in going as he just wanted to get back to his wife. I'm not saying AL would have shot Libby but she wasn't exactly of sound mind at that time.

They all just wanted to get Sawyer to Jack cos he was going to die, but AL was just so intent on her own purpose, tying up Sayid.

I do like AL, didn't at first, but now we've seen her past and their first days on the Island I can understand why she is the way she is. But at that moment, for many reasons, I think she wasn't thinking straight and who knows what she would have done and the best thing for Libby and Bernard to do was just leave and give her time to come to her senses.

quote:

Originally posted by Mushi:
Whatever happened to "Its lord of the flies out there" and "Each man & woman for themselves"

Ah, but that clearly wasnt her philosophy..despite the general consensus on her, she is very selfless and self-sacrificng and certainly believed in helping her fellow man/woman. She should be admired for that imo.

quote:

Frankly, if I were in Bernards or Libbys postion I would have been worried that she was going to shoot me, she was really unstable out there!

lol, true..she had a little moment didt she..all her demons came flooding back and she acted faily irrational..however I'd still rather entrust her with a gun than feeble Bernard or hapless Libby

quote:

Ah, but that clearly wasnt her philosophy..despite the general consensus on her, she is very selfless and self-sacrificng and certainly believed in helping her fellow man/woman. She should be admired for that imo.

Ooh...I can't quite agree that she's very selfless. Certainly she's contributed to the survival of many of her companions, though not more than certain other people - Mr Eko's been equally responsible for fending off attacks, and we must remember that Ana Lucia has to take a fair proportion of the blame for Nathan's death. Her statement to Bernard that she was the only reason he was still alive - which I think did carry the implicit suggestion 'ergo your decisions are now mine to make' - was more than a little vain. But selfless...tying Sayid up and contemplating killing him and threatening to shoot her friends if they intervene while Sawyer dies quietly in the background suggests to me a fairly clear reversion to an innate and overriding sense of self-preservation at the cost of others' wellbeing. As does dismantling Sawyer's stretcher so she could tie up the man whose lover she'd killed. Certainly she protects the interests of herself and her group over those of other people, even when she's pretty sure they offer no threat.

But on her side, she did override that innate sense and her final act in that episode was ultimately self-sacrificing - handing Sayid the gun so he could, if he chose, fulfil 'justice' by shooting her. Lucky for her his notion of justice was more charitable than hers.

At any rate, she's not as selfish as Mr Eko, who maintained a 40 day silence at the expense of his companions and carried Sawyer to Jack purely to salve his own conscience. He's far too tied up with a sense of his own salvation.

Hmmm.....

To be honest I don't think that they're turning their backs on her as such, but because they can't understand her reasons they don't want to be a part of her craziness.

Bernard, I feel he was the most understanding towards her, however, his desperation to see his wife overshadowed his judgement, and so he left.

Libby, well...as much as I don't care for AL, I thought Libby was a little contradictory. She said, "I was with you when you put Nathan in the pit" as if she is implying that Ana did the wrong thing...is she forgetting that she suggested Nathan was the bad guy in the first place!?

Eko, my sweet, kind Eko. Well I ain't gonna complain about his reasons. SAVING SAWYER. I know he said he was doing it for himself, but perhaps a part of him is doing it for the group, they've already killed one of the Lostess, by letting another die it won't look too good. (Side note - AL said Sawyer would let Eko die, he wouldn't...he's only acting his mean way coz he's afraid and injured. Otherise, he would save those in danger)

It seems perhaps the group is returning to the Lostees coz what Ana was doing with Sayid was a little "Out There" and the fact that they are the new, untrusted people could imply they want to make a good impression, and so don't want to join AL is Sayid's capture.

They're not turning there back, but they really are still strangers, and as Sawyer said, it's every man/woman for him/herself.

If I was AL I may have been slightly miffed at Bernard and Libby going and leaving me. But I would also see where they are coming from!

Yes it was Libby who encouraged her to put Nathan in the pit, but AL certainly had her own doubts about him.

There was that point that she was that unstable she couldnt even remember Libbys name!

I just dont blame either of them for wanting out!

Interesting thread with some really good points made.

I don't blame Bernard for leaving her - he was obviously very scared and desperate to see his wife. He comes across as quite a weak character, doesn't he? As if Rose is his pillar of strength - I bet if anyone "owns" his life, it's Rose!

I think Libby could have made more of an effort to talk Ana Lucia down and reassure her that she would not be deserted and was not alone. Isn't she a psychologist or something - and so, isn't it her calling to help people in mental torment? (As AL clearly was). True, she must also have been very scared and I don't blame her for running off - but I wonder if the situation could have been calmed down sooner if AL hadn't felt so isolated?

Would you really stand by somebody who just shot one of the group your trying to join and then endangered another of their lives while you tied one of their greiving members to a tree and shot at another one for no good reason? Really?

What if they then threatened you at gunpoint to actually tie up the grieving man using the stretcher of said dying group member? Then being told she saved your life so you have to do whatever she says no matter how ridiculous it is?

I think we should be applauding Libby and Bernard for finally getting some backbone and standing up for themselves. Ana Lucia was a terrible leader and was leading them in the wrong direction.

quote:

Originally posted by mantis_zero:
Would you really stand by somebody who just shot one of the group your trying to join and then endangered another of their lives while you tied one of their greiving members to a tree and shot at another one for no good reason? Really?

What if they then threatened you at gunpoint to actually tie up the grieving man using the stretcher of said dying group member? Then being told she saved your life so you have to do whatever she says no matter how ridiculous it is?

I think we should be applauding Libby and Bernard for finally getting some backbone and standing up for themselves. Ana Lucia was a terrible leader and was leading them in the wrong direction.

Well, if by "stand by" them you mean do everything they say, then no. I hope, however, that I would have the moral fibre not to abandon the situation. I hope that I would calmly (hahaha, I know) refuse to tie up Sayid whilst trying to defuse the situation and letting her know she would have to shoot me before I would let her shoot this innocent man.

However, would I have the guts to do any of these things in the heat of the moment? I have no idea, although I doubt it. It would take massive amounts of courage. That's why I said I don't really blame Libby for leaving when she got the chance. However, that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

As for getting some backbone - I think Libby had some backbone all along. She seemed a fairly strong, competent person. I think part of Ana Lucia's problem in that scene was that no-one was willing to assume control. Understandable, because she had the gun. But I think if Mr Eko and Libby had pulled together and taken charge of the situation, whilst assuring AL of their support and protection, AL might have backed down.

Or she might have shot them all before turning the gun on herself, who knows.

Bernard was away from his wife for 48 days. And although AL saved their lives several times, the last thing he'd want is to be caught up by someone who seemed to have lost it slight, excuse the pun, when he was so close to reuniting with his wife. Seems fair enough to me that he left. Libby then just probably didn't want to be left alone with the lunatic.

I think Libby was a little mean - saying that AL wasnt the best judge of charcter with regeards to Nathan but she had the same doubts and kinda stabbed her in the back when it turned out it wasnt the case - making it out it wasnt her fault when IMO she was just has much to blame.

But with regards to Beranard - you try being away from your wife of so many yearsfor 40 odd days, not knowing if she died or not and then knowing shes a live and only just around the corner? those few hours may not seem much to you and I but to him they must have seemed like a life time. Not selfish at all.

Overall I think they did give her the oppunity to do the right thing and return with them and they were whilling to stick up for her and tell the rest it was an accident but she wouldnt allow that reasonable request and more or less alinated them by turning a gun on them when they didnt think the same way has her. If somone you thought was your friend turned a gun on you for little or no reason wouldnt it be hard to stand by them. I know i would find it hard.

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:

quote:

Ah, but that clearly wasnt her philosophy..despite the general consensus on her, she is very selfless and self-sacrificng and certainly believed in helping her fellow man/woman. She should be admired for that imo.

Ooh...I can't quite agree that she's very selfless. Certainly she's contributed to the survival of many of her companions, though not more than certain other people - Mr Eko's been equally responsible for fending off attacks, and we must remember that Ana Lucia has to take a fair proportion of the blame for Nathan's death. Her statement to Bernard that she was the only reason he was still alive - which I think did carry the implicit suggestion 'ergo your decisions are now mine to make' - was more than a little vain. But selfless...tying Sayid up and contemplating killing him and threatening to shoot her friends if they intervene while Sawyer dies quietly in the background suggests to me a fairly clear reversion to an innate and overriding sense of self-preservation at the cost of others' wellbeing. As does dismantling Sawyer's stretcher so she could tie up the man whose lover she'd killed. Certainly she protects the interests of herself and her group over those of other people, even when she's pretty sure they offer no threat.

But on her side, she did override that innate sense and her final act in that episode was ultimately self-sacrificing - handing Sayid the gun so he could, if he chose, fulfil 'justice' by shooting her. Lucky for her his notion of justice was more charitable than hers.

At any rate, she's not as selfish as Mr Eko, who maintained a 40 day silence at the expense of his companions and carried Sawyer to Jack purely to salve his own conscience. He's far too tied up with a sense of his own salvation.

Fair enough..I also acknowledge that Eko has greatly contributed to their survival..however I dont quite think he's done as much as she has?..i mean..whilst he was going through his 40 days of silence [bless him]..who was the one leading them and telling them what to do..lets face it..that lot needed directing . I would say Eko has done almost as much as AL..but she has been the crux of their survival imo. Afterall, even Eko wasnt suspicious of Goodwin.

Regarding Nathens death..sure, AL has to take a fair proportion of the blame for his death but theyre in the wild and in a climate of untrust..especially after the 'Others' attacked them. All she did was send him down the pit so that she could try and figure out whether or not he was a spy/threat..she wasnt the one to kill him, afterall..his blood is firmly on Goodwins hands. I dont think we can blame AL for being suspicious can we?

Fair point about AL's remark to Bernard..it was perhaps a little presumptious, arrogant [call it what you will] of her to suggest that she is the law since she saved his life. However Bernard comes across as quite a feeble man imo..he doesnt strike me as someone who is as street savy or indeed as jungle savy as AL..so what she was suggesting was that he put his faith in her and allow her to make the decisions concerning their survival..afterall, it's been her decisions which have got them this far.

Hmm..I see youre point about her self-preservation stance..and i understand she shouldnt have threatened Sayid but we must remember that it was Sayid who attacked her! She was only adopting a defensive strategy. Im not for one minute saying Sayid shouldnt have been angry, devastated etc but at the same time I cant question AL's defensive manoeuvre. Also, her demons were flooding back to her at that moment..and she had just committed the same crime that had been criminally 'bestowed' upon her 2 or so years ago..she had shot a 'possibly' [soon to be] pregant Shannon in the tummy..now hows that for wretched irony.. ..I think in such a situation, self preservation is paramount..its instinctive..

I agree, she shouldnt have taken the strapping form Sawyers stretcher to tie Sayid up..she should have seen that they posed her know threat..except..they did. Sayid was hell bent on revenge at that point..he would have surely killed her had Eko not been there..I doubt she could have defeated Sayid like she did Goodwin? And i severely doubt feeble Bernard and Libby would have stepped in to help her..as for Mike and Jin..well we all know where their allegiance lies..so imo she had to tie him up. She's been trained to isolate the threat and then question, which is exactly what she did. It's not as if she tortured Sayid..

Hehe..personally I dont think Eko is selfish either..his 40 day silence, though poorly timed, was perhaps borne out of the realisation of the fact he had just killed. Perhaps this brought back certain demons and memories from his past..what with his name meaning "war camp", maybe he had gone full circle and committed a crime which he swore never to do again?..sound familiar? [theory btw ]

One thing ive just remembered though..sligtly off topic..but wasnt there ONE bullet left in that gun..and didnt AL fire it at Shannon..so why did she give Sayid the gun as if he could have used it to kill her? hmmm.. [or have i missed something?]

PS

I actually think the unsung hero in this sence was Micheal. He defied her when she tired to stop him from giving his friend some water. His "If you wanna shot me, shot me" stance showed that he wasnt whilling to dance to her tune anymore and proved that you could successfully stand up to AL.This was also shown when he got jack instead of getting the stuff AL wanted him to get. I think that the former stance showed the Libby and Bernard how its done and gave them the courage to try their own walk out.

quote:

One thing ive just remembered though..sligtly off topic..but wasnt there ONE bullet left in that gun..and didnt AL fire it at Shannon..so why did she give Sayid the gun as if he could have used it to kill her? hmmm.. [or have i missed something?]

Yeah but Sayid had a gun has well - so didnt she take that?