She shot at Michael for no good reason Roco, not Shannon. He was trying to reason with her and she took a shot right past his head to shut him up. How can you justify that?

Being fickle is one thing but when somebody orders you about at gunpoint (endangering yet another life in the process) I think most people would lose a lot of respect for them. You cant blame Libby for finding any excuse to get the hell away from Ana.

Additionally Bernard and Libby are still alive because the others didnt care about them, they are not savages who kill for no reason. All Ana really did was murder Goodwin, who only killed Nathan to stop himself being found out not because he wanted to. I feel they would have done just fine without her, they just would have had an other in their ranks.

I don't think it was a case of the remaining Tailies turning their backs on AL but rather her pushing them away. Because she felt guilty about shooting Shannon she instantly went into self-preservation mode and started pushing the rest of them away. She just wanted to get away from not only them but try and run from the consequences of what she had just done. AL herself must have realised that it was unfair to keep the rest of them there and when they decided to go she didn't put up a fight. I don't think they turned their back on her nor did they betray her. They just did what was in their best interests.

i think she did what anyone would have done in that situation, she shot shannon to protect the group because she thought she was one of the others and if she had not made libby tie up sayid he would have shot her. ana's done her best to protect the group thrn they just left her, i could understand them wanting to get sawyer back but the rest should have waited til michael got back she was clearly upset and unsure of what to do next

It was understandable for Bernard to leave . He must of been so eager to see Rose . But maybe Libby should've stayed . Ana needed somebody she knew to keep her company and keep her relaxed . I don't see why Libby had to leave anyway . But I suppose it was good Ana and Sayid were left alone . It allowed them to reach their understand and for her to , eventually , let him free .

I'll tell you what did surprise me - not everyone's eagerness to get away from Ana Lucia but their willingness to leave Sayid in that appallingly dangerous and traumatic situation. I know she'd said she simply planned to leg it into the jungle but they couldn't really assume she was going to stick to her word: she obviously wasn't thinking straight. I'm surprised both Michael and Jin were so ready to abandon Sayid like that.

quote:

Originally posted by mantis_zero:
She shot at Michael for no good reason Roco, not Shannon. He was trying to reason with her and she took a shot right past his head to shut him up. How can you justify that?

Oh sorry mantis, I thought you meant when she shot Shannon. Fair enough, her shooting near Mike to warn him was out of order..she shouldnt have done that and there was no real need for it. Although it may be a 'Police thing' and it did seem as if she was in total control of the gun. But granted, it was a tad unnecessary and dangerous.

quote:

Being fickle is one thing but when somebody orders you about at gunpoint (endangering yet another life in the process) I think most people would lose a lot of respect for them. You cant blame Libby for finding any excuse to get the hell away from Ana.

True, it probably made Libby feel a little aggrieved not to mentioned scared..but surely Libby should have put it all in context and realised that AL was under alot of pressure..I mean [ironically] she's a phsycologist!..she should know the tell-tell signs of stress and pressure. Rather than abandoning AL she should have used her professional skills to have helped her imo.

quote:

Originally posted by mantis_zero:
Additionally Bernard and Libby are still alive because the others didnt care about them, they are not savages who kill for no reason. All Ana really did was murder Goodwin, who only killed Nathan to stop himself being found out not because he wanted to. I feel they would have done just fine without her, they just would have had an other in their ranks.

I cant deny that, that is a very good point. ALhtough you therefore have to ask the question, why then did Goodwin 'stay' in the group? If he was going to do them no harm and already had the 'good' people and disposed of the 'threats' [except Eko, granted]..why then did he stay and not go back to the hole he came from? Does this tell us that he planned to lead them somewhere in order to mass execute them?..maybe he thought, why kill them and then have to carry the dead bodies when he could get them to take themsleves to a strategic area where his buddies could spring out and take them out?

So with all this in mind..it seems that the mere presence of Goodwin after the kids and 'goodpeople' had been taken suggests that they did in fact need AL and that she did infact save them from possible peril..

Also, look at Bernard..I couldnt see him surviving one hour in that Jungle without AL..Goodwin or no Goodwin..thats how feeble he is [imo]

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:

Also, look at Bernard..I couldnt see him surviving one hour in that Jungle without AL..Goodwin or no Goodwin..thats how feeble he is [imo]

All Bernard's done is been meek and self-effacing. I kind of like that in a person. It's not like he's gone around, you know, causing anyone the slightest bit of harm or anything...

quote:

Originally posted by Fluffy_Bunny:
I don't think it was a case of the remaining Tailies turning their backs on AL but rather her pushing them away.

Thats a fair point..maybe it was a bit of both..because she did turn the gun on them but they also turned their backs on her [imo]..particularly once the dust had settled a bit, I would have thought they would have put her earlier aggression to one side..

quote:

Because she felt guilty about shooting Shannon she instantly went into self-preservation mode and started pushing the rest of them away. She just wanted to get away from not only them but try and run from the consequences of what she had just done. AL herself must have realised that it was unfair to keep the rest of them there and when they decided to go she didn't put up a fight. I don't think they turned their back on her nor did they betray her. They just did what was in their best interests.

Some good points there. She did get very defensive..I cant deny that..but I think they should know her well enough by now..she is prone to going into 'defence' mode..it's part of her nature since the death of her unborn child. I would have thought they would cut her some slack.

In saying that they may not know about her baby..but even so I would have liked ot have seen them sticking together..you know..like Jack said in WR, "If we cant live together..were gonna die alone"..

By the way. The answer to this question?

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:

Fair enough..I also acknowledge that Eko has greatly contributed to their survival..however I dont quite think he's done as much as she has?..i mean..whilst he was going through his 40 days of silence [bless him]..who was the one leading them and telling them what to do?

Nathan. He chose the place to set up camp, where there was shelter and fresh water, and he was the one catching food for them.

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:
I'll tell you what did surprise me - not everyone's eagerness to get away from Ana Lucia but their willingness to leave Sayid in that appallingly dangerous and traumatic situation. I know she'd said she simply planned to leg it into the jungle but they couldn't really assume she was going to stick to her word: she obviously wasn't thinking straight. I'm surprised both Michael and Jin were so ready to abandon Sayid like that.

Yes, good point Murgatroyd, I too was very suprised, particularly at Jin, for just leaving him there after the 'togetherness' he seemed to show in the earlier scenes. I suspect however that maybe the creators had to somehow move the plot along to a situation where AL and Sayid were alone, even if it meant sacrificing a bit of continuity?

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:

Also, look at Bernard..I couldnt see him surviving one hour in that Jungle without AL..Goodwin or no Goodwin..thats how feeble he is [imo]

All Bernard's done is been meek and self-effacing. I kind of like that in a person. It's not like he's gone around, you know, causing anyone the slightest bit of harm or anything...

Yeah theres nothing wrong with the way Bernard is but its the fact that this 'meekness' would probably have got him lost or killed if it wasnt for AL's leadership and now that he's got no need for her, it's a bit like a slap in the face for poor AL

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:
By the way. The answer to this question?

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:

Fair enough..I also acknowledge that Eko has greatly contributed to their survival..however I dont quite think he's done as much as she has?..i mean..whilst he was going through his 40 days of silence [bless him]..who was the one leading them and telling them what to do?

Nathan. He chose the place to set up camp, where there was shelter and fresh water, and he was the one catching food for them.

lol, but did you see the way they all looked at AL for the green light? It wasnt until she gave the go-ahead that they set-up camp there. Nathen was never in charge imo..that was his problem, he challenged AL's authority and couldnt deal with being led by a [magnificent] woman..which no doubt led AL becoming suspicious of him.

Nathen, whilst an able body, only made one leadership decision..and even that needed AL's golden seal of approval.

I have to say that all this Bernard-bashing seems monumentally unfair. How many of us truly believe we could acquit ourselves with any more courage in such an appalling situation? Besides which, comparisons with Ana Lucia's "courage" are hardly meaningful, as she clearly has a death wish...

However, both Libby and Bernard gave Ana Lucia a chance to explain her strategy, which she completely scorned and left it to Sayid to explain - very plausibly - that her only plan was to wallow in self-pity and to hell with everything and everyone else. In spite of the superficial reasonableness of her asking for "some slack", what she was actually demanding was unconditional loyalty and the right to not have to explain herself, which is the point at which a leader becomes a would-be tyrant...

quote:

Originally posted by Paradroid:
I have to say that all this Bernard-bashing seems monumentally unfair. How many of us truly believe we could acquit ourselves with any more courage in such an appalling situation?

Im not being boostful, but I certainly think i'd be able to acquit myself better than Bernard! I mean the guy could barely grab onto a branch..not to mention his constant, 'are we there yet..are we there yet?' whinning. ..whatever does Rose see in him? lol

Maybe im bieng a bit harsh on him..he is a lovely guy but i had visions of him being more 'capable'.

quote:

Besides which, comparisons with Ana Lucia's "courage" are hardly meaningful, as she clearly has a death wish...

She does have a "death wish" doesnt she! ..Seems that Sawyers not the only one with suicidal tendancies on the island.

quote:

However, both Libby and Bernard gave Ana Lucia a chance to explain her strategy, which she completely scorned and left it to Sayid to explain - very plausibly - that her only plan was to wallow in self-pity and to hell with everything and everyone else. In spite of the superficial reasonableness of her asking for "some slack", what she was actually demanding was unconditional loyalty and the right to not have to explain herself, which is the point at which a leader becomes a would-be tyrant...

lol, re calling AL a "tyrant" even though I shouldnt..that made me laugh! ..I wouldnt go that far though..I mean maybe youre right..maybe she was expecting unconditional loyalty..but didnt she deserve it? ..hadnt she earned that right?

I wouldnt say she had self pity though..I think 'grief' is different from pity...and she's clearly still grieving at the loss of her child. Therefore I think she deserves a bit of slack..she deserve the time to gather her thoughts and try to apply reason..all she needed was time..time to think of a plan. Weve all had moments when we just need someone to understand us and if they cant understand us, to just have faith in us..and I think thats all AL needed..

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:

lol, but did you see the way they all looked at AL for the green light? It wasnt until she gave the go-ahead that they set-up camp there.

Nathan didn't wait for her say-so. He declared he was stopping and she agreed it was a sensible decision. Maybe they looked to her because they respected her judgement; maybe they had her down as the bullying type and didn't want to be slapped around for disobeying her. But personally I think they were just wondering how she'd react to Nathan's making a firm decision, knowing she was kind of headstrong. We have no concrete proof that, had she decided she didn't want to stop there, they would've gone along with that.

quote:

Nathen was never in charge imo..that was his problem, he challenged AL's authority and couldnt deal with being led by a [magnificent] woman..which no doubt led AL becoming suspicious of him.

Where to begin? Nathan's 'challenge to AL's authority' amounted to his a) getting fed up with tramping unnecessarily through the jungle behind a self-appointed leader who had no particular purpose in mind and b) going to the toilet in a suspicious manner. HOW VERY DARE HE.

quote:

Nathen, whilst an able body, only made one leadership decision..and even that needed AL's golden seal of approval.

See above.

I'm sorry to say this Rocco but if I had been there it would not have mattered how much I felt I owed AL you could see she was totally wacko and shooting at Michael for no reason. I would've legged it ASAP before she shot me! She would've shot Libby if she hadn't tied Sayid up and it was obvious she was going to shoot him if Michael hadn't promised her he'd get the stuff for her. I would not want to be involved in murder for her

quote:

lol, re calling AL a "tyrant" even though I shouldnt..that made me laugh! Big Grin ..I wouldnt go that far though..I mean maybe youre right..maybe she was expecting unconditional loyalty..but didnt she deserve it? ..hadnt she earned that right?

I don't know whether that sort of right can ever be earned (trust is one thing - infinite trust is another), but as a longstanding "Blakes Seven" fan I have a tendency to lose faith in the leadership qualifications of anyone who becomes so egotistical and paranoid that they lash out at any follower who dares to show the slightest signs of self-determination.

quote:

Originally posted by Murgatroyd:

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:

lol, but did you see the way they all looked at AL for the green light? It wasnt until she gave the go-ahead that they set-up camp there.

Nathan didn't wait for her say-so. He declared he was stopping and she agreed it was a sensible decision. Maybe they looked to her because they respected her judgement; maybe they had her down as the bullying type and didn't want to be slapped around for disobeying her. But personally I think they were just wondering how she'd react to Nathan's making a firm decision, knowing she was kind of headstrong. We have no concrete proof that, had she decided she didn't want to stop there, they would've gone along with that.

True, it did look as though Nathen was going to stop there no matter what she said..however whilst you're right in saying that there's no 'concrete proof' that the rest of them would have followed her if she decided against his 'recommendation', I really doubt that any of them would have chosen to stay with him over her. She seemed to be the one in charge and although people had voiced their displeasure at how much travelling they were doing [eg Bernard], one fact seemed to hit home, "youre still here". I dont think any of them [except Nathen] could or would have argued with that fact if she had carried on. Though of course thats just my opinion.

quote:

Nathen was never in charge imo..that was his problem, he challenged AL's authority and couldnt deal with being led by a [magnificent] woman..which no doubt led AL becoming suspicious of him.

Where to begin? Nathan's 'challenge to AL's authority' amounted to his a) getting fed up with tramping unnecessarily through the jungle behind a self-appointed leader who had no particular purpose in mind and b) going to the toilet in a suspicious manner. HOW VERY DARE HE.[/QUOTE]
Haha ..yes she was a little harsh on the guy but he didnt do himslef any favours really did he? I mean his attitude didnt exactly endear him to AL and his refusal to comply with the basic yet necessary toilet-break rules cost him her trust. Also, i dont think trapsing through the jungle was unnecessary because the beach was evidently unsafe and there was obviously a danger in staying in one place for too long in case they were 'picked off' again. AL wasnt going to let that happen, and I dont blame her!

I know she has a bit of a 'death wish' but im starting think that Nathen might have had one too..it was almost as if he would rather risk their lives just to spite AL's authority.

quote:

Originally posted by KoR-evo:
True, it did look as though Nathen was going to stop there no matter what she said..however whilst you're right in saying that there's no 'concrete proof' that the rest of them would have followed her if she decided against his 'recommendation', I really doubt that any of them would have chosen to stay with him over her. She seemed to be the one in charge and although people had voiced their displeasure at how much travelling they were doing [eg Bernard], one fact seemed to hit home, "youre still here". I dont think any of them [except Nathen] could or would have argued with that fact if she had carried on. Though of course thats just my opinion.

Haha ..yes she was a little harsh on the guy but he didnt do himslef any favours really did he? I mean his attitude didnt exactly endear him to AL and his refusal to comply with the basic yet necessary toilet-break rules cost him her trust. Also, i dont think trapsing through the jungle was unnecessary because the beach was evidently unsafe and there was obviously a danger in staying in one place for too long in case they were 'picked off' again. AL wasnt going to let that happen, and I dont blame her!

I know she has a bit of a 'death wish' but im starting think that Nathen might have had one too..it was almost as if he would rather risk their lives just to spite AL's authority.

It wasnt just Nathan who had a bad attitude though, Ana's is even worse. She appointed herself the leader, quite the opposite of the likes of Locke and Eko who lead by example rather than bossing people around like you own them. I think everyone was pretty fed up with Ana, Nathan was the only one with a strong enough character to stand up to her.

Also the others never even came back because they were not interested in the remaining tailies, they had Goodwin keeping an eye on Eko so there was no real danger of them getting taken anyway. They could have just stayed on the beach and nothing would have happened.