As much as I love this guys story and the dynamics of his character..lets face it..the guy has spent far too long in that box..or should I say 'hatch'.

I mean, even Rose remarked, "Jack, nice to see you out of the hatch. You could use more sunshine."

She's not wrong there..I mean the guy has gone from ardent disbeliever to fanatical activist of the button, all in the space of 2 days! Ok..maybe im being a bit unfair to the guy..lets say 3 days

But in all seriousness he looked awful in Collision..methinks he's been converted rather too quickly! I suppose though he was never the most reasoned and stable people, but his hasty reaction to Shannon's death was dispicable imo. He wanted to charge out there, guns blazing before even knowing all the facts..thats his problem..he doesnt take time to consider his next move and being leader this is a major flaw which will one day cost them [more than it already has] im sure.

If it wasnt for Eko's refusal to take him to the 'crime scene' then I dread to think what would have happened.

I mean, only a mad man would berrate Eko the way he did..i loved it though when Eko just sat there and asked Jack what he really wanted, "Peace? Revenge? Justice? And you are going out with all these guns? What do you want?"..it just showed Jack for the savage that he has become.

It's quite amazing really that such a civilesed man has adopted such savage leadership qualities..whereas Goodwin [for example] appeared far more refined and sophisticated in his leadership..

Anyway, I just think Jack has spent too much time in that box..in fact maybe thats the best place for him? Maybe everyone else will be safer with him locke-d down there? Maybe Jack should stay in the box and leave the decision-making to Locke, Eko and AL from now on?..I mean enough blood has already been spilled..Jack will only add to it if he doesnt sort imself out!

Any thoughts? Should Jack stay in the box?

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It's quite amazing really that such a civilesed man has adopted such savage leadership qualities..whereas Goodwin [for example] appeared far more refined and sophisticated in his leadership..

Just a pity he was an 'Other'.

Keep him down there, Locke him away, and throw away the key. Make Locke our leader, because he is more wise.

I think Jack has spent too much time in the hatch too. He needs to get out more. But I think Locke is spending too much time down there also. I hope the show doesn't revolve around the hatch for the entire season, it seems since it's been found, Jack and John both live there all the time. I don't like it at all. It was nice to see him out and about again. But I think the reason Jack has taken to the button is because of the whole Desmond thing. He cannot deny he knows him from before and I think possibly it freaked him out, so he is willing to give it a go. I still don't believe he is totally convinced though. But Locke shouldn't become leader,he is just as unstable as Jack sometimes is. Eko would be a good leader I think. He seems really really nice at the moment.

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Originally posted by Calvin Karpenko:

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It's quite amazing really that such a civilesed man has adopted such savage leadership qualities..whereas Goodwin [for example] appeared far more refined and sophisticated in his leadership..

Just a pity he was an 'Other'.

Keep him down there, Locke him away, and throw away the key. Make Locke our leader, because he is more wise.

Agreed! Though in saying that, I wonder how Locke would deal with the pressure of being 'direct' leader?

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I mean, only a mad man would berrate Eko the way he did..i loved it though when Eko just sat there and asked Jack what he really wanted, "Peace? Revenge? Justice? And you are going out with all these guns? What do you want?"..it just showed Jack for the savage that he has become. Ok, first off, I think berate is a harsh word, he merely voiced his frustration at Eko, he simply showed anger at his people not being together and one of them being dead. Like he said, I just want our people back together.I was glad that he shouted at him though, he showed that he is unitimidated by him, even though I think when he first saw him he looked pretty overwhelmed by the sight. The only thing Jack was guilty of IMO was flying off the handle before hearing Eko out, but that is the way he has always been..

It's quite amazing really that such a civilesed man has adopted such savage leadership qualities..whereas Goodwin [for example] appeared far more refined and sophisticated in his leadership..What do people expect from him? Everyone complains about his leadership yet they all run to him with there problems. Mike for example, he said to Sun, I got to find Jack. Why? AnaL had asked for clothing not a doctor. Why automatically go for him? It annoys me, I'm surprised he hasn't lost the plot sooner. I am loving the new Jack at the moment though. He is a little edgy, very dark and moody and it's a refreshing change from the season 1 Jack.

Anyway, I just think Jack has spent too much time in that box..in fact maybe thats the best place for him? Maybe everyone else will be safer with him locke-d down there? Maybe Jack should stay in the box and leave the decision-making to Locke, Eko and AL from now on?..I mean enough blood has already been spilled..Jack will only add to it if he doesnt sort imself out! NO WAY!! Jack should get out of the hatch and so should Locke..BUT as for allowing Locke to be leader..Not in a million years..I wouldn't trust him either. His own personal beliefs are too strong..Same as Jacks, the only difference being that despite Jacks wrong doing, I truely believe he is looking out for the losties, Locke wouldn't cope either, Just look at the way he broke down when left in the hatch early in the series. He is a loose cannon too. My opinion is that NONE of them should lead. I mean, what makes any one of them better than another? They should pull together, they all have qualities they could give that would work better..

Last point though, it wouldn't matter what Jack done, people would pick regardless. He got moaned at for being a goody goody, now he's developed an edge and all of a sudden he's now too savage..
Poor guy..I hope he keeps up this slight deranged thing for a while..I for one am loving every minute of it..

I don't think that Locke would want to be leader, especially since he effectively accepted Jack as leader in White Rabbit.

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Originally posted by smoking-hatch:
I don't think that Locke would want to be leader, especially since he effectively accepted Jack as leader in White Rabbit.

Good point..

This is why I don't get it when Locke questions Jack's authority..He not only accepted him as leader, he appointed him too..

I don't think that Locke wants to be the leader in the traditional sense, because Locke knows that he is not as approachable as Jack is, and that he does not have Jack's social skills or the skills that people need immediately, like medical attention. I think Locke is happy for Jack to be in control of the day to day running of the camp and to sort out any issues that may arise, but Locke does not want to be bound by Jack's word - yes he guided Jack into a leadership position, but I don't think Locke ever thought that he would have to toe Jack's line, and he probably resents the fact that Jack expects him to...like when Sawyer was brought in Locke asked what was happening, and all he got in repsonse from Jack was a snappy order of 'John, the button.'

I reckon that Jack is becoming more on edge now, because another person that he had ran into (AL) has appeared on the island [following Desmond], and he probably doesn't knwo what to make of it. I don't think Jack really wants to stay down the hatch and push the button, but, whether he likes it or not, the safe familiarity of pushing the button may be taking over him. Or perhaps Jack is reaching a breaking point and wants to hide away down in the hatch for while - he did act very rashly when he heard about Shannon, AL etc and was prepared to march out all guns blazing...not really a rational and well thought out plan by a fully competent leader imo.

As much as I don't like Jack, I think that he does do a good job of his thankless task as leader of the survivors. I love Locke, but think he leads better from the background and out of the spotlight - he provides the personal touch to when someone has a problem in words of veiled advice, and wouldn't be as good with the standard [one may even argue monotonous] aspects of leadership, like arranging the food and water supplies etc, whereas Jack is a much better person to do all that. I don't think the other survivors would accept Locke as 'the' leader either.

And I'd sooner follow Charlie as leader than AL I'm afraid.

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Originally posted by krekk:
[QUOTE]I mean, only a mad man would berrate Eko the way he did..i loved it though when Eko just sat there and asked Jack what he really wanted, "Peace? Revenge? Justice? And you are going out with all these guns? What do you want?"..it just showed Jack for the savage that he has become. Ok, first off, I think berate is a harsh word, he merely voiced his frustration at Eko, he simply showed anger at his people not being together and one of them being dead. Like he said, I just want our people back together.I was glad that he shouted at him though, he showed that he is unitimidated by him, even though I think when he first saw him he looked pretty overwhelmed by the sight. The only thing Jack was guilty of IMO was flying off the handle before hearing Eko out, but that is the way he has always been..

Im not glad he shouted at him..the poor man was a visiter in his 'home' and he laid into him..i mean talk about shooting the messenger, lol!

I think Jack needs to seriously work on his communication skills..could take a leaf or 10 out of Lockes book.

In saying that, I do accept the fact that he 'wanted his people back together'..in spite of my displeasure seeing him lay into Mr Eko, it was quite touching the way in which he cares for every single one of his crew. So credit where credits due.

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It's quite amazing really that such a civilesed man has adopted such savage leadership qualities..whereas Goodwin [for example] appeared far more refined and sophisticated in his leadership..What do people expect from him? Everyone complains about his leadership yet they all run to him with there problems. Mike for example, he said to Sun, I got to find Jack. Why? AnaL had asked for clothing not a doctor. Why automatically go for him? It annoys me, I'm surprised he hasn't lost the plot sooner. I am loving the new Jack at the moment though. He is a little edgy, very dark and moody and it's a refreshing change from the season 1 Jack.

True..thats a fair point..it seems that Jack just cannot win..and he's unable to be all things to all people like Locke. But I suppose the critism that he gets goes with the territory.

I agree, I like wathcing Jack..as much as I do complain about him he is a truely stella character which so much edge.

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Anyway, I just think Jack has spent too much time in that box..in fact maybe thats the best place for him? Maybe everyone else will be safer with him locke-d down there? Maybe Jack should stay in the box and leave the decision-making to Locke, Eko and AL from now on?..I mean enough blood has already been spilled..Jack will only add to it if he doesnt sort imself out! NO WAY!! Jack should get out of the hatch and so should Locke..BUT as for allowing Locke to be leader..Not in a million years..I wouldn't trust him either. His own personal beliefs are too strong..Same as Jacks, the only difference being that despite Jacks wrong doing, I truely believe he is looking out for the losties, Locke wouldn't cope either, Just look at the way he broke down when left in the hatch early in the series. He is a loose cannon too. My opinion is that NONE of them should lead. I mean, what makes any one of them better than another? They should pull together, they all have qualities they could give that would work better..

I believe that Locke is looking out for the other losties to though. Maybe Jack should just allow Locke more slack and let him take the lead when he feels like it and not give him so much grief. Though to be honest Jack hasnt been too bad in that department so far this season. Although they ddi have a little power struggle in MOSMOF if memory serves me.

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Last point though, it wouldn't matter what Jack done, people would pick regardless. He got moaned at for being a goody goody, now he's developed an edge and all of a sudden he's now too savage..
Poor guy..I hope he keeps up this slight deranged thing for a while..I for one am loving every minute of it..

Well i think the problem is not that he's now too savage and was too civilised..i think the problem is that he doesnt know who or what he is! [this isnt necessarily a critism of him:] he is on a journey of self discovery and whilst he makes that journey mistakes are inevitably being made and hasty decisions being adopted. I think it will be safer for everyone concerned if he either stays in the box OR hurrys up and 'finds himself'.

Does anyone else find it interesting that Jack is the leader, the man of action, who takes decisions without thinking about them..... Does Lord of the Flies set alarm bells ringing?? is this a reference by the writers as the characteristics certainly match up

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Originally posted by smoking-hatch:
I don't think that Locke would want to be leader, especially since he effectively accepted Jack as leader in White Rabbit.

True but Locke did this so that he could be free of the day to day responsibility of tending tpo the groups needs. He's a hunter..he knew that he would want to go exploring in search of his 'destiny' so he encouraged jack to assume the role of 'active' leader, whilst he became a leader who would step in when he felt the situation needed it. Also I think Locke realised that leading the group was a 2 man job..a manof faith can only do so much and so he realised that a man of science will provide more 'balance' to the group. Afterall the island does seem to put a lot of focus on 2 sides..or 2 parts..eg..2 sets of survivors..2 leaders of the losties camp..2 men to push the button down the hatch.."2 sides, one light, one dark" etc.

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Originally posted by Kiowa Warrior:
I don't think that Locke wants to be the leader in the traditional sense, because Locke knows that he is not as approachable as Jack is, and that he does not have Jack's social skills or the skills that people need immediately, like medical attention. I think Locke is happy for Jack to be in control of the day to day running of the camp and to sort out any issues that may arise, but Locke does not want to be bound by Jack's word - yes he guided Jack into a leadership position, but I don't think Locke ever thought that he would have to toe Jack's line, and he probably resents the fact that Jack expects him to...like when Sawyer was brought in Locke asked what was happening, and all he got in repsonse from Jack was a snappy order of 'John, the button.'

Just read this..well said.

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I reckon that Jack is becoming more on edge now, because another person that he had ran into (AL) has appeared on the island [following Desmond], and he probably doesn't knwo what to make of it. I don't think Jack really wants to stay down the hatch and push the button, but, whether he likes it or not, the safe familiarity of pushing the button may be taking over him. Or perhaps Jack is reaching a breaking point and wants to hide away down in the hatch for while - he did act very rashly when he heard about Shannon, AL etc and was prepared to march out all guns blazing...not really a rational and well thought out plan by a fully competent leader imo.

Yeah I agree..maybe the hatch is a bit of a sanctuary for him right now..away from the hustle and bustle of losties demands on him? Or maybe he is really buying into the button and it's possible consequences? I would think it's maybe a bit of both.

I do agree that he is under alot of pressure and is in danger of losing the plot at any given time..maybe the hatch is the best place for him to be

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As much as I don't like Jack, I think that he does do a good job of his thankless task as leader of the survivors. I love Locke, but think he leads better from the background and out of the spotlight - he provides the personal touch to when someone has a problem in words of veiled advice, and wouldn't be as good with the standard [one may even argue monotonous] aspects of leadership, like arranging the food and water supplies etc, whereas Jack is a much better person to do all that. I don't think the other survivors would accept Locke as 'the' leader either.

Well said..Locke tends to enjoy apply the personal details to Jacks leadership..whereas Jack overlooks many personal aspects, Locke uses his charismer and forsight to add minute details. Hence why Locke is always trying to get Jack to apply strategy and planning to his decision making, rather than haste.

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And I'd sooner follow Charlie as leader than AL I'm afraid.

There was no need for that!

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Originally posted by joel06:
Does anyone else find it interesting that Jack is the leader, the man of action, who takes decisions without thinking about them..... Does Lord of the Flies set alarm bells ringing?? is this a reference by the writers as the characteristics certainly match up

Yes, theres certainly a few 'Lord of the flies' elements thrown in by the creators..and it's one which works well in Lost.