Would you have done what Charlie did? Give your life to rescue Claire. Ok if you don't like Claire, then let's just say you were saving your g/f or b/f, would you have locked that door and drowned?

Tbh, I suppose if I were gunna die anyway via the Course Correcting of the Universe, then what better way to go than save your loved ones, huh?

But still, that took some guts from Charlie.

Yes, I would've done.

i don't understand it

i thought Charlie finding out its not Penny's boat changed the flash so he didn't need to do it and he had established that Des wasn't getting anymore flashes after his bang to the head so as far as i am concerned he could have saved himself and Des would no longer have flashes

and no i wouldn't give my life to save others because i would always think how do i know for sure that giving my life would save all the others i would hate to think that on the strength of someones vision i die and then no one gets save

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:
i don't understand it

i thought Charlie finding out its not Penny's boat changed the flash so he didn't need to do it and he had established that Des wasn't getting anymore flashes after his bang to the head so as far as i am concerned he could have saved himself and Des would no longer have flashes

and no i wouldn't give my life to save others because i would always think how do i know for sure that giving my life would save all the others i would hate to think that on the strength of someones vision i die and then no one gets save

Desmond said for the helicopter to arrive to save Claire and Aaron [or Eron apparantly ] that Charlie needed to drown after switching off the yellow light, which he accomplished. It didn't have anything to do with Penny. Penny wasn't in Desmond's latest flash. And just because Charlie knocked him out with the paddle doesn't mean Desmond doesn't/won't get anymore flashes, he doesn't have flashes constantly. And even if the blow to the head stops his flashes, well it wouldn't erase all previous flashes, hence Charlie STILL had to die to save Claire/Aaron. Charlie could have said himself, and with Penny one step closer to finding the island everything would've been positive you'd think? However if Desmond said Charlie needs to die, then Charlie needs to die to save Charlie. The smallest thing will cause big changes in the future, even if that small thing is squashing a bug or Charlie having to die. And seeing as Desmond told Charlie he WILL die eventually, I guess what better way to die than to die for Claire and Aaron being rescued.

As for your 2nd paragraph, like I said, Charlie KNEW he HAD to die eventually, so I guess he just put his faith in Des'. Otherwise I don't thinmk Charlie would risk his own life on a so-so vision that may or may not come true. Though Desmon's visions have been pretty accurate from Charlie's p.o.v because Desmond saved his life in the jungle from Dannielle's trap.

*Sigh* I made mistakes above

"Charlie could have SAVED himself, and with Penny one step closer to finding the island everything would've been positive you'd think? However if Desmond said Charlie needs to die, then Charlie needs to die to save CLAIRE.

but if Charlie hadn't died then the Claire and Air-ron getting on the helicopter would have changed - right - but it could have changed to something better it could have been that EVERYONE gets resuced not just Claire and Arron and Charlie could have been included in that EVERYONE

also Charlie asked Desmond if flashes had stopped and Desmond said yes very positively i would have thought had he not been soo sure he would have said "oh i can't tell it doesn't work like that brother"

also i don't think Charlie not dying doesn't change the flashes that much as when Desmond saw Naomi he only thought it was Penny he didn't see for sure and he thought that by saving Charlie that time that it wouldn't be Penny and then when it wasn't Penny he thought saving Charlie meant he had changed that but he hadn't because he couldn't see it was Penny in the flash but he thought it would lead him to Penny which in a way it did because Naomi had a picture of Penny - do you see what i am saying i have got myself confused here but i know what i mean

Has any one actually considdered that in desmonds flashback, claire and aaron getting on that helicopetr might not have been to get rescued, they may have been captured by the others or the helicopter may have blown up with them inside, so charlies death would have been pointless anyway

quote:

Originally posted by Star Bright:
Has any one actually considdered that in desmonds flashback, claire and aaron getting on that helicopetr might not have been to get rescued, they may have been captured by the others or the helicopter may have blown up with them inside, so charlies death would have been pointless anyway

no i hadn't considered that but now i am

i am always open to alternative theories

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:
but if Charlie hadn't died then the Claire and Air-ron getting on the helicopter would have changed - right - but it could have changed to something better it could have been that EVERYONE gets resuced not just Claire and Arron and Charlie could have been included in that EVERYONE

also Charlie asked Desmond if flashes had stopped and Desmond said yes very positively i would have thought had he not been soo sure he would have said "oh i can't tell it doesn't work like that brother"

also i don't think Charlie not dying doesn't change the flashes that much as when Desmond saw Naomi he only thought it was Penny he didn't see for sure and he thought that by saving Charlie that time that it wouldn't be Penny and then when it wasn't Penny he thought saving Charlie meant he had changed that but he hadn't because he couldn't see it was Penny in the flash but he thought it would lead him to Penny which in a way it did because Naomi had a picture of Penny - do you see what i am saying i have got myself confused here but i know what i mean

[Hee hee Air-ron, nice one ]

Good point, but I suppose Charlie thought this was unlikely and just went with the flow. It was a little selfish tbh, because his mentality was "oh so long as Claire and Air-ron get rescued, sod everyone else". I guess he knew he had to die eventually, and he used his death on saving them, I mean if it turned out to be true, then he died doing something great. But yeah he could've asked Desmond to keep saving his life in the event a greater rescue opportunity comes along and everyone gets saved, but I suppose on a island where rescue attempts are few and far between, Charlie gave it his all [aka his life] to save his two favourite people on the island.

Good point again, so maybe his flashes have stopped, but it'd be a great shame because it'd take away Desmond's current storyline and make him pretty boring. Though I would just assume he doesn't have constant flashes, I mean they were only in the Underwatch hatch for what, an hour tops? I don't think Des has flashes every hour, though I could be wrong. Maybe he doesn't choose to discuss every flash as they could involve pointless things like what time Bernard goes to the loo or how many bananas Hurley is going to eat for lunch. That's a pretty good "get out clause" lol, when someone has a go at you for doing something wrong in real life and tells you it was wrong, your excuse is "it doesn't work like that brother" ha ha

Woah!, that's like one big sentence lol!

You've totally confused me but only because you went on a typing frenzy

Right I think I understand this, yup as Desmond ASSUMED it was Penny who was gunna parachute down. So Charlie didn't have to die in either flashback to find Penny you mean?, as obviously his flashback [Naomi's episode] where he saved Charlie got him one step closer to Penny... and we now know IF he did let Charlie die, then it STILL would have been Naomi that parachuted onto the island as Penny is in the real world. I think his vision in the Finale wasn't anything to do with Penny, but maybe again he ASSUMED that by Charlie dying [in the Finale] that Penny will find the island? Is that what you're saying? So you suppose Des was lying about Claire and Aaron being rescued? I don't think Des would "kill" a man for his own wants, I mean he did contemplate it but ended up saving Charlie from the arrow in the jungle.

quote:

Originally posted by Star Bright:
Has any one actually considdered that in desmonds flashback, claire and aaron getting on that helicopetr might not have been to get rescued, they may have been captured by the others or the helicopter may have blown up with them inside, so charlies death would have been pointless anyway

That could just as easily be true as them getting saved, good point I'm not sure why Desmond just assumed the helicopters were "the good guys", lol.

Personally, if Claire and Aaron widn up getting on a helicopter, I think they'll be safe no matter who captures them, I mean, if this Organisation Ben was on about do capture them, I don't think they're going to harm them. I think Claire's biggst concern is Ben's lot getting her and Aaron, i.e. being stuck on the island for ever and ever.

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
It was a little selfish tbh, because his mentality was "oh so long as Claire and Air-ron get rescued, sod everyone else".

yeah I know what you mean if I was Charlie I would have asked Desmond a lot of questions about his flash before committing myself to death

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
I guess he knew he had to die eventually, and he used his death on saving them, I mean if it turned out to be true, then he died doing something great. But yeah he could've asked Desmond to keep saving his life

well see its like this I don’t like Desmond so I would have much preferred for him to die to put an end to this flash business so we could keep Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
Good point again, so maybe his flashes have stopped, but it'd be a great shame because it'd take away Desmond's current storyline and make him pretty boring.

like I say above I don’t like Desmond and I think I am pretty much the only person who isn’t impressed with the whole business of flashes anyway - I don’t feel they have a place in Lost

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
Though I would just assume he doesn't have constant flashes, I mean they were only in the Underwatch hatch for what, an hour tops? I don't think Des has flashes every hour, though I could be wrong.

I don’t think he had flashes all the time but when Charlie asked him if he was still having them he had to think for a bit and then said no so I wonder (a bit like Rose knowing her cancer had gone) if there is just a feeling you get a feeling that’s always there but you learn to put up with it and manage to ignore it most of the time but if you think about it you know its there

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
Right I think I understand this, yup as Desmond ASSUMED it was Penny who was gunna parachute down. So Charlie didn't have to die in either flashback to find Penny you mean?, as obviously his flashback [Naomi's episode] where he saved Charlie got him one step closer to Penny... and we now know IF he did let Charlie die, then it STILL would have been Naomi that parachuted onto the island as Penny is in the real world.

absolutely

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
I think his vision in the Finale wasn't anything to do with Penny, but maybe again he ASSUMED that by Charlie dying [in the Finale] that Penny will find the island? Is that what you're saying?

not really I am saying he hasn’t yet let a flash run its course so he doesn’t know for sure that sticking to what happened in the flash will give the same end result as he saw it

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
So you suppose Des was lying about Claire and Aaron being rescued? I don't think Des would "kill" a man for his own wants, I mean he did contemplate it but ended up saving Charlie from the arrow in the jungle.

it’s a possibility he certainly did have second thoughts and (forgive me if I am wrong) did he not try and stop Charlie from carrying out the drowning (my memory is sketchy on that one)

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:
yeah I know what you mean if I was Charlie I would have asked Desmond a lot of questions about his flash before committing myself to death

Thing is, nobody ever asks half enough questions in this bloody programme! I'd of asked Desmond a million questions, though maybe it'd make for boring tv if we heard Chaz asking a million questions lol, maybe he did it off camera?

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:well see its like this I don’t like Desmond so I would have much preferred for him to die to put an end to this flash business so we could keep Charlie

I love Desmond, he's one of my favs, but I reckon even if his flashes stopped, it doesn't change the Universes' plans for everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:
like I say above I don’t like Desmond and I think I am pretty much the only person who isn’t impressed with the whole business of flashes anyway - I don’t feel they have a place in Lost

I think the plotline has been very good and I'm glad they introduced it, it's all very mystical and really ties in with the whole Fate issue in Lost, I just really love the whole Destiny/Fate/Faith thing, it's so very intriuging! Desmon's episode with the Oracle Woman was just amazing, one of my fav eppies. The time-travel is VERY confusing but it's so fun to discuss!

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:I don’t think he had flashes all the time but when Charlie asked him if he was still having them he had to think for a bit and then said no so I wonder (a bit like Rose knowing her cancer had gone) if there is just a feeling you get a feeling that’s always there but you learn to put up with it and manage to ignore it most of the time but if you think about it you know its there

I still think he meant he hadn't had any in the past 30 minutes, but they could very well be gone, who knows. Well Rose felt her Cancer but I doubt Desmond felt his visions unless he was actually experiencing one.

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:not really I am saying he hasn’t yet let a flash run its course so he doesn’t know for sure that sticking to what happened in the flash will give the same end result as he saw it

Well at the current time, he's let Charlie die so we'll find out if Claire is rescued.

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:
it’s a possibility he certainly did have second thoughts and (forgive me if I am wrong) did he not try and stop Charlie from carrying out the drowning (my memory is sketchy on that one)

Well he banged on the glass with a fire extinguisher but gave up because it weren't doing any good. He was helpless, but I'm he'd save him if he could. Though tbh, I think he was only bothered because he heard Penny, otherwise he was willing to let Chaz kill himself.

Man I'm gunna miss Charlie, just seeing pics of him on LC and just remembering his scenes makes me miss him already. He was awesome, he had such a presence, and I think there's gunna be a big gap in Lost

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:
yeah I know what you mean if I was Charlie I would have asked Desmond a lot of questions about his flash before committing myself to death

Thing is, nobody ever asks half enough questions in this bloody programme! I'd of asked Desmond a million questions, though maybe it'd make for boring tv if we heard Chaz asking a million questions lol, maybe he did it off camera?

well they don’t need to show him asking all the questions they could at least hint at it not just have him go “oh you have seen a flash and this time I have to die oh ok no problem I am fine with that”

quote:

Originally posted by Stan:

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:well see its like this I don’t like Desmond so I would have much preferred for him to die to put an end to this flash business so we could keep Charlie

I love Desmond, he's one of my favs, but I reckon even if his flashes stopped, it doesn't change the Universes' plans for everyone.

When he first turned up in the hatch I was pleased to see a new person then when he just ran out and left them to it I just thought eff you and was really disappointed when he came back and I don’t trust him (he is way too selfish to be trusted) and I don’t like that he is pretending he doesn’t belong in the Lostie group but is still hanging around

quote:

Originally posted by Stan:

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:
like I say above I don’t like Desmond and I think I am pretty much the only person who isn’t impressed with the whole business of flashes anyway - I don’t feel they have a place in Lost

I think the plotline has been very good and I'm glad they introduced it, it's all very mystical and really ties in with the whole Fate issue in Lost, I just really love the whole Destiny/Fate/Faith thing, it's so very intriuging! Desmon's episode with the Oracle Woman was just amazing, one of my fav eppies. The time-travel is VERY confusing but it's so fun to discuss!

no it does my head it and its too sci-fi for my liking and I don’t like sci-fi style things because the writers can come up with any old nonsense to explain it all and it’s all too convenient

quote:

Originally posted by Stan:

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:I don’t think he had flashes all the time but when Charlie asked him if he was still having them he had to think for a bit and then said no so I wonder (a bit like Rose knowing her cancer had gone) if there is just a feeling you get a feeling that’s always there but you learn to put up with it and manage to ignore it most of the time but if you think about it you know its there

I still think he meant he hadn't had any in the past 30 minutes, but they could very well be gone, who knows. Well Rose felt her Cancer but I doubt Desmond felt his visions unless he was actually experiencing one.

but what if its like when you get a ringing in your ear you know its there but you can carry on doing things and ignoring it at times but every now and again you remember its there or if you stop to think about it you know its there and when your ear stops ringing you don’t always notice it straight away

quote:

Originally posted by Stan:

quote:

Originally posted by the-fox:not really I am saying he hasn’t yet let a flash run its course so he doesn’t know for sure that sticking to what happened in the flash will give the same end result as he saw it

Well at the current time, he's let Charlie die so we'll find out if Claire is rescued.

well if she does I bet its not for a LONG time

quote:

Originally posted by Stan:
Man I'm gunna miss Charlie, just seeing pics of him on LC and just remembering his scenes makes me miss him already. He was awesome, he had such a presence, and I think there's gunna be a big gap in Lost

Oh god yes its just a shame his finest moment has to be his last
RIP Charlie Pace

Will look at your finale review later (have copy pasted it in case it goes “missing”)

quote:

Originally posted by Star Bright:
Has any one actually considdered that in desmonds flashback, claire and aaron getting on that helicopetr might not have been to get rescued, they may have been captured by the others or the helicopter may have blown up with them inside, so charlies death would have been pointless anyway

I was thinking that too. And Penny said that boat wasn't hers .. so if Charlie had been able to save himself he could have told Desmond all that she said, and they would have tried to stop the others from calling for help, which would have stopped Claire and Aaron being 'rescued'. But we dont know who these people in the helicopters will be!!

quote:

Originally posted by St. Anger:
[Hee hee Air-ron, nice one ]

I think thats how people from Manchester (the North) say Aaron, because thats how I say it too (I'm from Manchester). And it annoyed me when other Losties kept saying 'Arron' instead.

Or maybe its a religious thing doesn't Mr. Eko say Air-ron not 'Arron'.

I've always thought that Desmonds flashes showed things that shouldn't happen, not things that should. What do you think? As the lot in the 'copter could be bad news if its not Penny's boat. (How did they get that photo then, and why? I think Penny's dad has something to do with it)