quote:

Originally posted by harperson:
We're running out of resources, it's so obvious the reason behind the global """warming""" hysteria.

Really , is it that obvious. Or is this the beginning of some groundless anti-GW conspiracy theory?

If they had just made it a resource issue we would have no grounds for disagreement.

quote:

Originally posted by Bonmot:
If they had just made it a resource issue we would have no grounds for disagreement.

Exactly, the way the Establishment has sold the green argument has made a mockery of it all.

I'm an enviromentalist, I would like to see less dependency on oil. But I'm a climate change or is it global warming?? Sceptic.

quote:

Originally posted by Bonmot:
Then I want to question whether it is man made CO2, directly or as an indirect consequence of upsetting some other system? To be told some isotope is more abumdant begs just more questions, are there any ways that this could have been released in other ways rather than man burning it?

The isotope is Carbon-14 and studies of tree rings have shown that the proportion of Carbon-14 in the atmosphere was lower in 1954 than in 1850 - New Scientist:

quote:

Fossil fuels were formed millions of years ago. They therefore contain virtually no carbon-14, because this unstable carbon isotope, formed when cosmic rays hit the atmosphere, has a half-life of around 6000 years. So a dropping concentration of carbon-14 can be explained by the burning of fossil fuels.

In addition, we know we are burning fossil fuels and we can estimate the rate at which we are burning them and therefore we can estimate how much CO2 ought to be going into the atmosphere as a result - apporximately 26.4 Giga-tonnes per year. Setting this against the actual measured level of CO2 in the atmosphere, currently 385 parts per million (up from the pre-industrial level of 270 ppm) we get a good idea as to what proportion of the excess CO2 comes from human burning of fossil fuels.

Other contributory factors are changes in land use (eg. deforestation) and warming oceans, both of which result in less CO2 being absorbed. Agriculture is also a major contributor to greenhouse gas emissions, though methane more than CO2 I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by harperson:

I'm an enviromentalist, I would like to see less dependency on oil.

Something we can agree on then.

quote:

But I'm a climate change or is it global warming?? Sceptic.

Why?

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

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Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

if humans were harming the planet in a bad way, petrol would be illegal.

And if smoking were harmful to the health cigarettes would be illegal?

What does it matter to you if someone wants to harm themselves?

You're missing the point. I mention the example of cigarettes to show that governments do not necessarily ban things that are harmful.

I'm a smoker and I know that by smoking I am harming myself, but that's my choice. If I want to pollute my own body, that's up to me, no one should tell me I can't, but if I pollute the air that others breathe I accept that they have a right to complain.

Does this mean you're a bad person for polluting society?


"If there were no greenhouse effect the Earth would be 30 degrees cooler than it currently is."

Are you saying humans created this 30 degrees? who created the heat which melted the ice 630 million years ago? What melted the ice which created the English channel 12,000 years ago?

Do something for me, go outside and tell me what you feel the temperature is, then tell me what a normal july 9th is?

quote:

Originally posted by harperson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bonmot:
If they had just made it a resource issue we would have no grounds for disagreement.

Exactly, the way the Establishment has sold the green argument has made a mockery of it all.

I'm an enviromentalist, I would like to see less dependency on oil. But I'm a climate change or is it global warming?? Sceptic.

The science is clear, why don't you read it! instead of concentrating on the anti-GW ExxonMobil funded conspiracy theories.

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

if humans were harming the planet in a bad way, petrol would be illegal.

And if smoking were harmful to the health cigarettes would be illegal?

What does it matter to you if someone wants to harm themselves?

You're missing the point. I mention the example of cigarettes to show that governments do not necessarily ban things that are harmful.

I'm a smoker and I know that by smoking I am harming myself, but that's my choice. If I want to pollute my own body, that's up to me, no one should tell me I can't, but if I pollute the air that others breathe I accept that they have a right to complain.

Does this mean you're a bad person for polluting society?


"If there were no greenhouse effect the Earth would be 30 degrees cooler than it currently is."

Are you saying humans created this 30 degrees? who created the heat which melted the ice 630 million years ago? What melted the ice which created the English channel 12,000 years ago?

Do something for me, go outside and tell me what you feel the temperature is, then tell me what a normal july 9th is?

It's a bit cold on July the 9th. Great! So it's a bit cold here so it must be true for the rest of the world. How narrow minded!

Why don't you go tell the Australian farmer that GW is in his imagination and he's not really suffering 8 years of drought.

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

"If there were no greenhouse effect the Earth would be 30 degrees cooler than it currently is."

Are you saying humans created this 30 degrees?

Of course not. I'm saying that greenhouse gases in our atmosphere make the Earth warmer than it would otherwise be. Adding more greenhouse gases to the atmosphere is clearly going to cause warming. This was predicted over 100 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Raver Ron:
It's a bit cold on July the 9th.

Why don't you go tell the Australian farmer that GW is in his imagination and he's not really suffering 8 years of drought.

GW is reality, but it isn't warming the planet up much, you just said so yourself, "It's a bit cold on July the 9th".

If the Sun isn't harming the planet, and the Sun is much more powerful than human CO2, then whats the problem...

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

"If there were no greenhouse effect the Earth would be 30 degrees cooler than it currently is."

Are you saying humans created this 30 degrees?

Of course not.

So how much of this 30 degrees do humans create? Who/what creates the other?

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by Raver Ron:
It's a bit cold on July the 9th.

Why don't you go tell the Australian farmer that GW is in his imagination and he's not really suffering 8 years of drought.

GW is reality, but it isn't warming the planet up much, you just said so yourself, "It's a bit cold on July the 9th".

If the Sun isn't harming the planet, and the Sun is much more powerful than human CO2, then whats the problem...

It's called tipping the balance. Nature has an equilibrium, we are upsetting it.

quote:

Originally posted by Raver Ron:

It's called tipping the balance. Nature has an equilibrium, we are upsetting it.

Don't blame me for anything, speak for yourself.

Did nature melt the ice millions of years ago?

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

who created the heat which melted the ice 630 million years ago? What melted the ice which created the English channel 12,000 years ago?

Ice ages are believed to be caused by the Milankovitch cycles, wobbles of the Earth in its orbit. They have a periodicity of many thousands of years and we are currently at a point where, if it were only down to the Milankovitch cycles, the Earth would be cooling, albeit very slowly. But instead temperature readings show us that the Earth is warming, and at an unprecedented rate.

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Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

"If there were no greenhouse effect the Earth would be 30 degrees cooler than it currently is."

Are you saying humans created this 30 degrees?

Of course not.

So how much of this 30 degrees do humans create? Who/what creates the other?

The IPCC has stated that it is very likely (ie. more than 90 percent certain) that the majority of the warming since industrialization is the result of human activity.

But prior to industrialization there were still greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, there was still CO2 in there, just not as much as there is now. No one is suggesting that humans have created the greenhouse effect, just that human activity is adding to it.

Did you have a look at this BBC page on the greenhouse effect I linked to earlier? I think it explains it quite well.

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

who created the heat which melted the ice 630 million years ago? What melted the ice which created the English channel 12,000 years ago?

Ice ages are believed to be caused by the Milankovitch cycles, wobbles of the Earth in its orbit.

You mean the Sun. So whats melting ice today

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

"If there were no greenhouse effect the Earth would be 30 degrees cooler than it currently is."

Are you saying humans created this 30 degrees?

Of course not.

So how much of this 30 degrees do humans create? Who/what creates the other?

The IPCC has stated that it is very likely (ie. more than 90 percent certain) that the majority of the warming since industrialization is the result of human activity.

But prior to industrialization there were still greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, there was still CO2 in there, just not as much as there is now. No one is suggesting that humans have created the greenhouse effect

Majority, lets say 25 degrees. What is the strength of this 25 degrees in comparisson with the stregnth we get from the Sun?

It took 200 odd years to melt the ice age of 630 million years ago, as far down as Leeds. The combined CO2 on earth today isn't melting the north and south poles in the same way. How did the pre industrialization CO2 melt that ice?

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

"If there were no greenhouse effect the Earth would be 30 degrees cooler than it currently is."

Are you saying humans created this 30 degrees?

Of course not.

So how much of this 30 degrees do humans create? Who/what creates the other?

The IPCC has stated that it is very likely (ie. more than 90 percent certain) that the majority of the warming since industrialization is the result of human activity.

But prior to industrialization there were still greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, there was still CO2 in there, just not as much as there is now. No one is suggesting that humans have created the greenhouse effect

Majority, lets say 25 degrees. What is the strength of this 25 degrees in comparisson with the stregnth we get from the Sun?

The majority of the warming! The Earth has not warmed 30 degrees since the start of industrialization.

You understand that by warming we mean about the increase in temperature? We're not talking about the overall heat input or anything so your comparisons with the Sun are meaningless. Of course the heat hitting the Earth comes from the Sun, but that heat input has not changed in at least the last 30 years so the Sun cannot be responsible for the warming.

If there is no more heat hitting the Earth and yet the temperature of the planet is rising, what could cause this? It must be that less heat is leaving the Earth - more heat is being trapped by the atmosphere, by the increased levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:
We're not talking about the overall heat input.

So human CO2 can melt the ice on its own it couldn't melt a lolly pop.

quote:

Of course the heat hitting the Earth comes from the Sun, but that heat input has not changed in at least the last 30 years so the Sun cannot be responsible for the warming.

Are you stark raving bonkers, stick your head out the window, its cold, why, because the sun isn't shinning...

quote:

If there is no more heat hitting the Earth and yet the temperature of the planet is rising, what could cause this?

CO2, so what? CO2 is useless in stregnth without the Sun.

It took 200 odd years to melt the ice age of 630 million years ago, as far down as Leeds. The combined CO2 on earth today isn't melting the north and south poles in the same way. How did the pre industrialization CO2 melt that ice?

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:
If there is no more heat hitting the Earth and yet the temperature of the planet is rising, what could cause this?

CO2, so what? CO2 is useless in stregnth without the Sun.

The Sun's not going anywhere, not for another 5 billion years at least. Atmospheric CO2 however is rising to dangerous levels and the resulting climate change is already having an effect on people's lives.

quote:

Originally posted by eruption:

quote:

Originally posted by Raver Ron:

It's called tipping the balance. Nature has an equilibrium, we are upsetting it.

Don't blame me for anything, speak for yourself.

Not one person in particular. We, as in the human race.

First thing we have to admit, our activities affect the climate. Unfortunately, we will never accept that until the likes of George Bush and his cronies stop spreading misinformation about AGW for people to buy into.

quote:

Originally posted by legjoints:
Atmospheric CO2 however is rising to dangerous levels

Dangerous? I don't notice it. How has it affected you?

Why wont you answer the ice age questions?


RR
"We, as in the human race".

But im part of it, and ive done nothing wrong.

"First thing we have to admit, our activities affect the climate"

True, but why worry about it? We need to warm this planet up, blinking cold out there.