I was looking forward to watching this drama but I was sadly disapointed!

I have been left feeling incrediably angry at how 'all' but one of the gay men were portrayed so negativily. As a mother of a young son who is gay and a volunteer member of FFLAG(Family and Friends Of Lesbians and Gays)Homophobia is of great concern to me. I felt that this drama was very damamging to the work that has been done to dispel such myths and misunderstandings of gay life that this programme showed.

Instead of tackling the subject of homophobia I feel that if anything it reinstalled all negative opinions of gay men being as sex hungry predators who's only way to fulfil themselves is to have sex in public toilets and parks.I was deeply upset at the depiction of sex between a 30 year old man and a 14 year old boy and I feel this does nothing but to provide justification to those who would believe that gay men are pedophiles.

Afterall, was we supposed to feel sorry for the 30 year old man who was persued by a young boy and how sad it was that he just could'nt control himself? And was the mothers reaction to her son being with this man so wrong or supposed to be homophobic in some way? I don't think so!

As a mother myself I would be more than horrified if my 15 year old son was to be with a much older man and my reaction would be ten times worse! He was a much older man and should of known better and so just sent the boy away.

I am not saying that there are not any men, Gay or Straight, who live a destructive lifestyle and have little self respect and morals,but this drama was so one dimensional and so over the top stereotyped with not one relationship shown as a loving, true and solid.

I don't think it will just be me who may feel the same about the programme, far from it! I am so disappointed that channel 4 have broadcast this drama that supposedly was meant to be a programme that would challenge homophobic attitudes. If anything, I feel is has only but put back 40 years of striving to challenge homophobia and bigots!

I intend to make a complaint to channel 4 and to highlight this with Stonewall who I hope will make a formal complaint and raise the matter in the media.I hope more of you who may share the same veiws as I will do the same.

Lorraine, Parent Pride.

Hi Lorraine, hope you do not mind a response. I am well aware of the work of FFLAG, an excellent organisation that has helped many youngsters some of whom i now know as men. I am however at a loss to understand why you state : -

"As a mother myself I would be more than horrified if my 15 year old son was to be with a much older man and my reaction would be ten times worse!"

Surely this reaction would damage any adolescent young man who, as he was portrayed, new exactly what he was doing. To believe that attraction and desire, be it to another adolescent or an older man, is something that should be castigated in the way you describe beggars belief. It proliferates the "sexual apartheid" of adolescence that has led to laws which not only criminalise consensual sexual exploration between adolescents but also sees them placed on the sex register if caught.

Regards

B

Thank you for your post. I 100% agree with you on all the matters you have raised. I sincerely hope that your formal complaints will draw some attention to this disappointing drama that portrayed gay men in such a stereotypical way. Michael

quote:

Surely this reaction would damage any adolescent young man who, as he was portrayed, new exactly what he was doing. To believe that attraction and desire, be it to another adolescent or an older man, is something that should be castigated in the way you describe beggars belief. It proliferates the "sexual apartheid" of adolescence that has led to laws which not only criminalise consensual sexual exploration between adolescents but also sees them placed on the sex register if caught.

Regards

B

No, no, no....I'm sorry but you have missed my point entirly! My reaction to the older man and young boy was not in any way to say that this youngs boys attraction was wrong, absolutly not!

Of course as a young person, gay or straight, we all at some time as adolescents have crushes on much older people. My anger was based at the 'older man' who should of known better than to have sex with an under age boy who clearly was lonely and vulnerable, albeit that he was pursuing this older man.

The older man should of been able to control himself over his sexual desires and sent the boy away instead of clearly taken advantage of the situation!

I ask myself this....if I as an older woman if I was pursued by a 14 year old boy would I not know that it would be 'WRONG' to sexually respond to his attentions?....
The answer is obvious to me, I would kindly be clear to the young person that there would be no possible chance that anything would happen and I would send him on his way!

To be honest I would'nt even need to think about it for a second and I don't think that any normal minded adult would need to think about whether it was wrong or right to have sex with an under age adolescent...it's wrong full stop!

I too felt betrayed by Clapham Junction which was aired last night.
I am also the parent of a young gay man who has not felt able to come out to all of his family yet. He wishes nothing more than to be able to lead an emotionally fulfilled life with a loving partner.
When we sat down to watch the programme last night, opening with a newly legalised civil partnership between two men who had been together for more than a decade, I could see the relief in his face thinking that his dream was achievable and that if his father was watching this programme also then it would help when he finally came out to him.

Then within 30 seconds it was all ruined with one of the grooms making eyes at the waiter at his own wedding. The programme from a gay person's point of view never recovered from there. Every single scenario was one of sleaze or bullying or hidden sex etc. All of the scenarios that gay hating groups use to bolster their beliefs that gay men do not deserve equality and peace in their lives because they are sordid and unnatural.

How am I supposed to convince my son now that he will be able to lead a "normal" life and that a gay man does not only have sleaze, covert sex in a dirty toilet, promiscuity and, what he is mostly worried about, a lonely life to look forward to?
june a proud mother of all her sons

Dear June,

Please know that the behaviour in this drama is not the norm. As a 22 year old gay man living in London, i have never come across any of the sleave etc that is depicted in the film. Please reassure your son that a lot of gay people are not like this. The lifestyle in this drama is something that you choose and is not the only path in life for a gay man. The fact is that gay men can now be whoever they want; for instance, i nor any of my gay friends are like these characters. I have been in a monogamous relationship for 2 1/2 years. I have a masters degree in International Politics and Human Rights and plan to work for the United Nations. My boyfriend has a degree in law and is training to become a solicitor. Whilst some gay men behave as the characters in the film do, the majority however do not. Most of us want to settle down, have good jobs and lead monogamous and otherwise "normal" lives. Best wishes, Michael

quote:

Originally posted by ParentPride:

quote:

Surely this reaction would damage any adolescent young man who, as he was portrayed, new exactly what he was doing. To believe that attraction and desire, be it to another adolescent or an older man, is something that should be castigated in the way you describe beggars belief. It proliferates the "sexual apartheid" of adolescence that has led to laws which not only criminalise consensual sexual exploration between adolescents but also sees them placed on the sex register if caught.

Regards

B

No, no, no....I'm sorry but you have missed my point entirly! My reaction to the older man and young boy was not in any way to say that this youngs boys attraction was wrong, absolutly not!

Of course as a young person, gay or straight, we all at some time as adolescents have crushes on much older people. My anger was based at the 'older man' who should of known better than to have sex with an under age boy who clearly was lonely and vulnerable, albeit that he was pursuing this older man.

I see your point here, what if the other had been 15 how would you react then?

The older man should of been able to control himself over his sexual desires and sent the boy away instead of clearly taken advantage of the situation!

In an ideal world yes, in this case only however i hardly think he was clearly taking advantage of the situation and I know of many gay men, now older who had relationships that were very fruitful with older men. To dismiss each interaction as clearly abusive is to play right into the hands of those who would use these types of relationships to damage gay people.

I ask myself this....if I as an older woman if I was pursued by a 14 year old boy would I not know that it would be 'WRONG' to sexually respond to his attentions?....

He was not after an older woman the two scenarios are streets apart, men and women are a so different ( mars and venus I believe ) especially when it comes to older women and younger adolescents. This is often applauded by their peers as a conquest and does not contain the non normative stigma of the situation being a gay one.


The answer is obvious to me, I would kindly be clear to the young person that there would be no possible chance that anything would happen and I would send him on his way!

See your point, happened to me at 14, I was devestated, he was the only gay person I ever met till I was in my late twenties, I came out at 37 after years of self loathing. Being rejected at that point, when I had already been encouraged to have faux straight sexually encounters by my so called friends at school, only reinforced my self hatred and added to my years in the wilderness

To be honest I would'nt even need to think about it for a second and I don't think that any normal minded adult would need to think about whether it was wrong or right to have sex with an under age adolescent...it's wrong full stop!

Again I ask what if the are both underage? How would you react?


Thanks so much for responding, at last someone who engages.


B

quote:

Originally posted by venetian:
Dear June,

Please know that the behaviour in this drama is not the norm. As a 22 year old gay man living in London, i have never come across any of the sleave etc that is depicted in the film. Please reassure your son that a lot of gay people are not like this. The lifestyle in this drama is something that you choose and is not the only path in life for a gay man. The fact is that gay men can now be whoever they want; for instance, i nor any of my gay friends are like these characters. I have been in a monogamous relationship for 2 1/2 years. I have a masters degree in International Politics and Human Rights and plan to work for the United Nations. My boyfriend has a degree in law and is training to become a solicitor. Whilst some gay men behave as the characters in the film do, the majority however do not. Most of us want to settle down, have good jobs and lead monogamous and otherwise "normal" lives. Best wishes, Michael

Hi Michael

I agree with you, many gay men do not participate in the 'sleazier' side of life, i.e. drugs, promiscuous sex etc, however many gay men do - the saunas are generally packed out over the weekend and the majority of men and women in clubs have taken something illegal. As a 35 year old gay man living in London I do most of these things too, this doesn't necessarily permeate the rest of my life - I've got an MA and a professional job, Im not in a relationship but I would be open to one with the right person. Most people are a mass of contradictions and gay men are no different. There seems to be an underlying pressure for gay men to fit in, 'we accept you now, but please don't be too different'. It's not internalised homophobia but there is this odd situation where some gay men look down, dismiss and even deny other gay men who don't fit in to the 'normal' template.

Hi June, thank you for your reply.

I can completly relate to everything you have said in your post. Like you, my son and I were looking forward to watching this programme and we, my son too, felt very disapointed by the content.

My son also,like anyone else, just wants to one day have nothing more than a loving and fulfilling relationship. I am not saying that along the way he will not have many relationships and even flings, like any gay or straight person! But he too sometimes feels despondent at how so called gay life is consistantly portrayed in the media.

This was such a missed opportunity by channel 4 to raise awareness on issues that affect gay people and to also raise awareness regarding the issue of homophobia. It has angered me that channel four have done nothinhg more than fuel stereotypes of gay men.

This is a subject I feel very passionate about. At this presant time I am working closely with my local council, diversity and equality officer and Hampshire police constabulary with a view to putting forward new proposals to tackle homophobia in local schools.

I have put in many hours of my time into this simply because as a parent of a gay son I wish to raise awareness about homophobia and dispel stereotypes of gay life in order help change peoples attitudes and make the community in which we live a safer place for my son and other gay youth to live here.

I feel that programmes like this do nothing to help the efforts of many like myself who are striving to combat Prejudice and discrimination.

June, I wish you and your son well and if ever you need any support or advice please do not hesitate to call Fflag (Family and Friends Of Lesbians and Gays).

Thank you, Lorraine

quote:

Then within 30 seconds it was all ruined with one of the grooms making eyes at the waiter at his own wedding

Funny you should mention that, as it was the point at which I said to myself "oh god, this is going to be so bad!".

Hi DavidSW8,

I understand what you're saying and appreciate that you can have a decent job and at the same time live lives perhaps similar to some of the characters in the film. I just wanted to reassure people that it is a choice and not a requirement that you do drugs and have promiscuous sex in order to fit in; a worry most young gay people have. Personally, i don't like the sleazier side of gay life, so like many things in the world, i do look down on it. It's not a question of "normal" but rather my personal feelings.

Best Wishes

quote:

Originally posted by venetian:
Hi DavidSW8,

I understand what you're saying and appreciate that you can have a decent job and at the same time live lives perhaps similar to some of the characters in the film. I just wanted to reassure people that it is a choice and not a requirement that you do drugs and have promiscuous sex in order to fit in; a worry most young gay people have. Personally, i don't like the sleazier side of gay life, so like many things in the world, i do look down on it. It's not a question of "normal" but rather my personal feelings.

Best Wishes

Hi Michael

Of course and I would hope that there are support facilities for young gay men and women to address any concerns they have. Coming from the other side of things, there is a pressure from other gay people to conform - like being looked 'down upon' for participating in certain activities. People have to find their own level that they are comfortable with and I think we should support and not condemn each others' choices as far as is realistic.

what if the other had been 15 how would you react then?

Completly diffrent, the ages are not poles apart! If it were two boys of similar age it would be nothing more than two adolescents doing what is only normal....again, gay or straight! To my mind it's not about just sexual maturity it is also about emotional and psychological maturity which I think is more the issue when a older person takes advantage of a much younger person.

He was not after an older woman the two scenarios are streets apart, men and women are a so different ( mars and venus I believe ) especially when it comes to older women and younger adolescents. This is often applauded by their peers as a conquest and does not contain the non normative stigma of the situation being a gay one.

No, not streets apart as far as I'm concerned! Gay or Straight the adult should know better and be able to control themselves over sexual desire! I agree that the attitudes socially regarding 'older woman young boy' vs 'older man young boy' may be more judjmental and damning toward the gay version of events, however, my opinion remains the same regardless of sexual orientation. The portrayal of the older gay man with the younger gay boy played right into the hands of homophobics whos veiws are already fuelled with negativity regarding gay men.


See your point, happened to me at 14, I was devestated, he was the only gay person I ever met till I was in my late twenties, I came out at 37 after years of self loathing. Being rejected at that point, when I had already been encouraged to have faux straight sexually encounters by my so called friends at school, only reinforced my self hatred and added to my years in the wilderness

That is very sad and is something that 'no' young gay person should ever have to go through! This is why I feel so strongly about this drama as I don't think any young gay person would feel motivated or proud to come out after such a negative portrayal as that shown in this programme. I feel for any young gay person that has watched this programme alone and that has no one to turn to for support because I think they would be terrified by what they saw!!

Thank you for your reply, Lorraine.

hi, atfer reading this page of comments given by both parents and gay males themselves i feel i would like to add a few things (hope u dont mind).
I myself am i 22 yr old gay male, i have only resently "come out" to all. I think there are a number of interesting points being made from all who commented. first of all remember this is a fictional programme, a piece of art (and like all art, is has different reactions) the first issues i would like to comment on is that of the scene with the older man and the 14 yr old boy. However you word this argument let one thing be clear there is NO, No excuse for an older male or female to resort to phedaphilia, it is not only against the law it is morally wrong, wheather that person is gay or straight doesnt even come into the issue.
I feel the programme was trying to identify with many issues that can effect gay people, i feel that the message of supression for the young boy was clear and that his desperation over whelming. I feel the programme makers may of intensionaly put this scene in, just to see wheather peoples morals change when it is the context of a 'gay storyline'.
I would also like to say that the fact there are such progammes out there on television shows how far gay rights have come, the fact there is a formum in which to comment tells us we are far from "40 yrs set back". I feel that channel 4 have always given the puplic diverse and interesting programmes and documentaries way before any other channel (queer as folk the 'kiss' in brookside etc) which all helped me to realise i was not a minority growing up.

I feel the main issues that where raised in the programme where that a sexual content, but ask yourselves why? that is what i feel the programme makes what u to ask, Why? i feel it highlights the supression many gay people go through, being traped inside ur own mind is a scary thing (i know) some gay people, as we all know do not come out for yrs, or sometimes never do, this is because they fear the unknown( in ever sense of the word) and many feel that when they do come out its all there for the taking, (making up for lost time, or simply feeling that once out and excepted that they are invincable, which is why i feel that some gay man think little about unprotected sex but thats another story.) the scene with the older gent in the toilet was true to life, it may have been dark and dirty but often when man feels he cant breath in life, he goes underground, to get the basic pleasures he wants in life ( wheather you agree with it or not it happens) of course i know that is not true for all, and especailly not true for todays generation because of more eduaction more 'programmes' showing the world that 'gay is ok'. But for diiferrent generations and differnet religions it can be o so different.

I feel the theary behind the programme was to see how excepting people really are. The scene at the table with the parents and friends was extremly close to real life, people say one thing but when it comes to the crunch they sometimes feel something totally differnt, especailly when it effects thier life.
lets not forget that gay beating/bashing happen s still today, bullying is still out there all of theses issues the programe raised.
Maybe the onll floor i feel the programe had was trying to deal with to many story lines in one programme.

i hope i havent gone off on one to much because i do sometimes do that, and i hope i have put my point across clearly (i'm so much better at talking than writing) and i apologise for spelling...
NJ

Dear Michael and David

I am very lucky to be in a position of knowing that plenty of gay people, like yourselves, lead successful and fulfilling lives. To me being gay or straight is no different to being bespectacled or not.
I knew my son was gay before he knew what the word meant (or maybe not :0) )and have planned all these years how to make his early years as positive as possible.

Don't get me wrong I'm not out for a medal, all my kids get all the positive reinforcements they need for whatever their personal experiences are.

My problem with this programme is that it refused to show one scenario of happy, successful men but chose the old stereotypes that unintelligent, narrow minded people like my husband (sorry, ex) believe is the life style of every gay man.

This programme just gives ammunition to the likes of the BNP and Christian Voice etc.

june

Hi

I dont think the BNP or Christian Voice need any ammunition, they always use Leviticus, Corinthians and the paedophile arguments anyway. With all it's faults, at least this drama didnt pander to them to show that all 'good gays' are really very nice people and no different at all to 'normal' straight folks.

quote:

Originally posted by neil j:
hi, atfer reading this page of comments given by both parents and gay males themselves i feel i would like to add a few things (hope u dont mind).
I myself am i 22 yr old gay male, i have only resently "come out" to all. I think there are a number of interesting points being made from all who commented. first of all remember this is a fictional programme, a piece of art (and like all art, is has different reactions) the first issues i would like to comment on is that of the scene with the older man and the 14 yr old boy. However you word this argument let one thing be clear there is NO, No excuse for an older male or female to resort to phedaphilia, it is not only against the law it is morally wrong, wheather that person is gay or straight doesnt even come into the issue.
NJ

I may get shot for this but I honestly did not see what happened between the 14 year old boy and the 30-something year old man as Paedophilia. Yes given the ages of those involved it would definitely be classified by law as such but lets use some common sense here. I will try to explain this without being too graphic. Paedophilia to me conjures up images of a pre-pubescent boy unwillingly been in the receiving position while the man is in the 'doer' after having coached his victim.

In the scene being discussed we have a over-sexed 14 year old boy who looks more like 17/18 stalking and fantasizing about a man who does not seem to pay him the slightest attention at first. This boy pleasures himself whenever he watches this man before eventually going all the way over to the man's house, forcing himself in; refuses to piss off after been told many a time to do so by the man and when they finally sleep together it is the boy 'child' who is the 'perpetrator' while the man is in the submissive position. Sorry I don't see what happened there as paedophilia as we know it...well as I know it. I sure many of us were not aware of how old this boy really was until his mum said it; had the character not made a point of mentioning his age, many of us could have assumed that he was 17 or 18. At least when the older man became aware of the boy's age he made a point of closing his curtains so that the boy could no longer watch him when to satisfy his lust by touching himself.

lpl lass:

I too felt betrayed by Clapham Junction which was aired last night.
I am also the parent of a young gay man who has not felt able to come out to all of his family yet. He wishes nothing more than to be able to lead an emotionally fulfilled life with a loving partner.
When we sat down to watch the programme last night, opening with a newly legalised civil partnership between two men who had been together for more than a decade, I could see the relief in his face thinking that his dream was achievable and that if his father was watching this programme also then it would help when he finally came out to him.

It upsets me to hear that you and your son believe that the only way to have an 'emotionally fulfilled' life is with a loving partner. This is tantamount to discrimination, the reason your son wants to get married and settle down is because of the social coding thrust upon him from infancy and the belief (not the actuality) that marriage and monogamy provide emotional strength, security and happiness.

The fact that everyone is so shocked by the events occurring in this drama is evidence that the whole community still has not accepted the queer lifestyle, partly because social condemnation of our activities has driven sectors of queers underground, resulting in drugs and violence.

The same feeling of condemnation for this show is what perpetuates homophobia, in queers and straights alike. There is the assumption that all gays that conform, get married, dont take drugs or sleep around are in some way better than those who do.

quote:

Originally posted by ben_j:
lpl lass:

I too felt betrayed by Clapham Junction which was aired last night.
I am also the parent of a young gay man who has not felt able to come out to all of his family yet. He wishes nothing more than to be able to lead an emotionally fulfilled life with a loving partner.
When we sat down to watch the programme last night, opening with a newly legalised civil partnership between two men who had been together for more than a decade, I could see the relief in his face thinking that his dream was achievable and that if his father was watching this programme also then it would help when he finally came out to him.

It upsets me to hear that you and your son believe that the only way to have an 'emotionally fulfilled' life is with a loving partner. This is tantamount to discrimination, the reason your son wants to get married and settle down is because of the social coding thrust upon him from infancy and the belief (not the actuality) that marriage and monogamy provide emotional strength, security and happiness.

The fact that everyone is so shocked by the events occurring in this drama is evidence that the whole community still has not accepted the queer lifestyle, partly because social condemnation of our activities has driven sectors of queers underground, resulting in drugs and violence.

The same feeling of condemnation for this show is what perpetuates homophobia, in queers and straights alike. There is the assumption that all gays that conform, get married, dont take drugs or sleep around are in some way better than those who do.

I think that is an awful response to post to a mother who is nothing but concerned for her son and his welfare. I also think it is your assumption that this mother and her son believe that the only way to have an 'emotionally fulfilled' life is with a loving partner is purely an assumption on your part!

Is it more fulfilling 'Gay or Straight' then to sleep around and have sex in public toilets and so forth?....like I said, gay or straight I don't think that there are many people out there that would want to live that kind of life long term! It is for most only natural to wnat to one day be with someone you love and cherish. People are people and want diffrent things,but this programme showed nothing of that. Homophobia is usually based on misunderstandings and on beliefs that about 'all' gay men act in the same way as the charactors portrayed in this programme, which I think was very destrucyive and negative!

The men in 'Clapham Junction' offered no positive role model for any young gay man growing up today. The programme failed to represent the diversity among the gay community, not 'all' gay men want to act in the same way just like not all gay men take drugs or want to get married ect, ect! The programme was one dimentional and did nothing to raise the issues of homophobia!!!

ben_j, I'm not quite sure why you use the term 'queer lifestyle' as though all gay people have to act the same.

Most gay people I would have thought and hoped, would not want to act like the characters in the drama.

Whilst it's not necessarily preferable to get married or have a civil partnership, it is certainly preferable to not take drugs.

Snorting cocaine is always wrong and there's nothing wrong with gay men thinking that taking cocaine is vile. Also, there is nothing wrong with gay men thinking that 'sleeping around' is wrong either.