ParentPride, you haven't told us what your son thought of the programme?

It seems there's little use in pointing out for the nth time that neither Clapham Junction nor any other drama could represent all gay men. However, it must be reassuring to those who flew into a furious panic over this film that none of the forums I've visited, nor press coverage, nor far right websites have taken Clapham Junction up as evidence in support of homophobia...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr Casper Returns:
ParentPride, you haven't told us what your son thought of the programme?

It seems there's little use in pointing out for the nth time that neither Clapham Junction nor any other drama could represent all gay men. However, it must be reassuring to those who flew into a furious panic over this film that none of the forums I've visited, nor press coverage, nor far right websites have taken Clapham Junction up as evidence in support of homophobia...

We sat down to watch this programme together, including Dad. And before I even made any comment on this programe my son looked at me in horror and said that he thought it was both very embarressing and that it was a very negative look at gay men.

With all due respect he does however fully undertsand that some people do like and do choose to live this way, he also undertstands that loking back in gay history that in the 50's and 60's that finding comfort in sex with strangers was, for most, the only option they had for fear of reprisal or imprisonment.

May I add that my son and I have a very good relationship and we often talk for hours discussing such things.

For a 15 year old boy he is very well informed about gay history and fully appretiates the struggles that gay men before him have had to face to get to the level of acceptance that there is today, albeit that there is still much more to be done to rasie awareness regarding homosexuality in order to combat homophobia!

I have made sure that my son has a very well rounded veiw of the world in general and I have never tried to protect him from the less positive side of life in general becuase I see this as an integral part of my parental responsibiltys.

By the way....my son has just said to me that he did'nt think the programme really addressed the issue of homophobia as it said it would, he adds....
it was mainly just all about sex!...giggles!

Which by the way is'nt a bad thing if that was what the programme producers intended
we loved 'queer as folk' and yet some people seemd to of hated it! I'm afraid my fav film though by far is 'BrokeBack Mountain' and of course 'Beautiful Thing'...yes, a bit unrealistic to some extent but a lovely film none the less!

Suppose I'll get stung by comments now for liking the 'Beautiful Thing film!'

1) The 14 Year old Boy, (played by a 23 year old Actor!), forced himself into the older Man's flat. You all saw this. The Man told him to get lost, ('Piss Off!'), numerous times. The Man would not even look at the Boy a lot of the time. The Boy insisted on chatting, & so on. The Boy made ALL the moves. The Boy wanted sex. The Law says that a 14 year old Boy cannot consent to sex. But, it was 100% obvious that he wanted to have sex with that Man. (Anyone who denies that is either delusional, or telling lies!).

2) Maybe the Man should have grabbed the Boy & physically thrown him out of the flat. Perhaps then we would have had a story developing where the Boy was so angry, that he told his Parents that the Guy either attacked him, or sexually assaulted him! Meaning that the poor Guy could not win!

3) Many Gay Men go to Gay Saunas to have sex. I have seen the obsession with youth, & good looks in such places. I once saw an elderly Man made fun of by a group of nasty, self centered gay Men, (in their 20's), because he was elderly. They laughed at him, asked what he was doing there, & called him, 'Old Father Time'. I thought, 'Who the hell do they think they are?' They behaved like they were part of an Elite - special because they were in their 20's.

4) I have seen a Guy of about 25, who was not very good looking, simply lying on a couch in a Gay Sauna, & several gay Youths looked at him & made - loud - comments - like, 'Look at him! He looks like Frankenstein on his slab!'. (Followed by loud laughter). The poor Guy left the place in tears.

5) The truth is that far too much of the 'Gay Scene' is obsessed with Youth & Good Looks - if you have neither, you are very often treated like you ought not to be in Gay Saunas or Clubs. You are made to feel like unwanted garbage. Like you have no right to even be in such places.

6) Who can blame such Men, if they resort to trying to find companionship, & sex, in Public Toilets? Or maybe, they should just give up, & get so lonely that they end up with Mental Illnesses, or killing themselves?

7) There are different types of Gay Men. Some are 'Camp', (effeminate), & many are shown in this way in the UK Media. Take Sean in 'Coronation Street'. He is a throw back to how Gay Men were portrayed in the 1970's. He is grossly effeminate - close your eyes, & you think you are listening to a Woman talking! He works in a Knicker Factory, & when he is not doing that, he is a Bar Man, (Maid, more like!), in the local Pub.
He now has a stupid storyline, where he is supposed to be giving a baby to his friend Violet, & the who storyline is so cliched that it may as well be a throw back to an early 1970's portrayal of a Gay Man.

Rather than pick on 'Clapham Junction', I think that - by far - the most offensive portrayal of a Gay Man on TV, is that of Sean in 'Coronation Street'. He makes Gay Men look like gossiping Females! He is widely hated by Gay Men. I know f none who think he is a good 'Gay Role Model'.

8) At least the Gay Men in 'Clapham Junction', were actually shown to be masculine Males, who happened to be Gay. Which is actually what most Gay Men actually are.

9) Going back to the 14 Year old Boy. The Film was actually trying to say, that it is not always the case that if a Gay Man has sex with an underage Boy, it is the Man who forces himself on the Boy. The Film was showing that in some cases, the Boy practically forces himself on the Man - leaving the Man no choice, but to either respond - or to grab the Boy - hard - and throw him out.

The Man realised that he should have done exactly that, & it showed that he had learned his lesson, when he pulled his curtains shut at the end of the Film. Even that now risks the Boy being so angry, & bitter, that he tells his Parent's that the Man molested him - forcibly. Anyone who was watching the Film saw - very well - that that did not happen. (As I said, the 'Boy' was played by a 23 Year old, anyhow!).

10) I USED to have sex in Public Toilets, & I can tell you now, that MOST of the Men I had sex with were MARRIED! They saw themselves as Heterosexuals, who wanted to try Gay Sex, now and then - out of curiosity.
They could not take Men home, as they were Married, & it was too risky to do it in Cars, so they chose Toilets. (And beating Men up for having sex in Toilets is never, ever OK. I once saw a youth of about 19 being held against a wall by 2 Yobs, who were accusing him of being in the nearby Toilets for sex. They were really hurting him, & he was crying. It was evil & wrong. I called the Police - but the Boy ran away, as he was scared of being in trouble for being in the Toilets - but the 2 Men had been far, far worse - Savages).

11) Yes, sex in Toilets is illegal, but so is 'Dogging' - an activity that many thousands of Heterosexual singles & couples indulge in, in many parts of the UK - in Car Parks, Woods, & many other places.
So, it is wrong for anyone to suggest that it is only Male on Male sex that takes place in Public Places - like Toilets.

12) Those Gays who think that sex in Toilets is 'disgusting', should wait & see what happens to them when they reach 45 or 50, & they find that many people reject them in Gay Clubs & Saunas - because they are 'Past It', & 'Too Old'. It will come to ALL Gay Men - including those who mock 'Old' Gay Men now, because they themselves are young, & handsome etc. It will be funny really - they will get back what many of them dished out to others!

13) The Homophobic violence in the Film was horrifying, but it happens, & several Gay Men have been beaten to death. Many of the killers used to get away with it - by claiming that the Gay Man 'made advances' to them. Thankfully, that excuse is no longer accepted.

14) I was horrified that the 24 Year old Waiter was killed, & I was scared to death when the Paul Nicholls character found him begging for help - as I thought that he was going to carry on the beating, that the other 2 thugs had given the Man. He took the ring instead - but left the Man to slowly get more & more close to death.
The Paul Nicholls character WAS Gay - he has said it in Interviews. He said that he had great anger about his Mother rejecting him, & he had Gay feeings, but then wanted to beat Gay
Men to a pulp, when guilt overtook him, as he got close to a Gay Man. He was really beating his Mother when he was beating the Gay Men - he was taking out all his hatred, of his Mother, out on them.
I thought that it was a very brave part for Paul to play - especially as he is Straight in 'real life', & he had to do such vile things.
I was glad when he got beaten up in the end - even though I hate violence. However, I felt that he needed to feel the pain that he had caused his victims.

15) Also, as the Ring was found on him, & as the Gay Gay gave it to the Waiter - it looks like the Paul Nicholls character will be the Number 1 suspect for killing the Waiter - the Police will assume that he was the one who beat the Waiter to a pulp, & then stole the Ring. Unfortunately, this means that the two monsters who really did it will probably get away with it - until they attack someone else. (Even though the married guy may well 'phone the Police & say he saw the 2 thugs chase the Waiter out of the Toilets).

quote:

1) The 14 Year old Boy, (played by a 23 year old Actor!), forced himself into the older Man's flat. You all saw this. The Man told him to get lost, ('Piss Off!'), numerous times. The Man would not even look at the Boy a lot of the time. The Boy insisted on chatting, & so on. The Boy made ALL the moves. The Boy wanted sex. The Law says that a 14 year old Boy cannot consent to sex. But, it was 100% obvious that he wanted to have sex with that Man. (Anyone who denies that is either delusional, or telling lies!).

I am not delusional and I don't think anyone else here is, well mostly!

Of course the boy pursued the older man, I undertsand that! But hey...older man should of said 'piss off' with a bit more conviction and removed the boy from his flat, simple as!

But no, poor man could'nt control his sexual desires and had to give in?...please, give men more credit than this becuase most 'decent' men would never of even contemplated having sex with a CHILD...albeit a very sexually aware child but a child none the less!

Again, just to clarify...I do think that young people having crishes on older people is perfectly normal, I mean, I even used to fancy my Dads best mate but for god's sake would it of been right for him to have sex with me if I had come on to him! I don't think so a, and I think my Dad would have done time in prison if he had of touched me!

Get a grip and undertstand that apart from being immoral and just plain wrong, it is ILLEGAL too!!

quote:

Originally posted by ParentPride:
By the way....my son has just said to me that he did'nt think the programme really addressed the issue of homophobia as it said it would, he adds....
it was mainly just all about sex!...giggles!

Who said it was going to "address the issue of homophobia"? Although the horror of gay-bashing was central to the story, and depicted with appropriately disturbing candour, none of the marketing led me to expect a programme "about" homophobia, nor does the C4 website: http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/0-9/40_years...lapham-junction.html

How much of the film did your son watch with his legs crossed?! (I'm gambling that you won't take offence at that question, as you have such a good relationship etc)

With regard to the utterly fantastic Queer As Folk, if I recall correctly it was stuffed full of casual sex with strangers, drug-taking, sex with minors, and not one of the three lead characters ended up in a settled relationship...

Hi Poseiden

Excellent Post! I agree with much of what you've stated there. I'm appalled at what you have witnessed at saunas, I've been to a few myself and have to say I've never seen such cruel behaviour personally. However, as soon as I see a group of young men giggling with each other I go elsewhere as I find that puerile tittering very 'off-putting'. I hope I would have the nerve to confront them about it if I heard them be cruel to someone though... Also, I prefer guys my age (35) or a bit older, so there's early 20-somethings dont interest me in that respect anyway.

The 14 year old certainly pursued the older man to the point where he totally wore him down - it felt like the younger person carried the power in that situation. Whilst, it was unlawful, it wasn't 'paedophilia' (i.e. sex with a 'child' in my opinion.) I went to public loos when I was 16 (when the legal age was 21) and had sex with men there. In the eyes of the law these men were paedophiles but in reality it was me who went there looking for them... To me paedophilia is sex with a child, someone pre-sexual - it is an abusive act where the recipient is an unwilling victim who has to be coaxed or forced into sex. It's basically rape and the incidence in this programme didn't depict that.

Also, yes this programme has been accused of conforming to every stereotype but as you rightly stated there were no effeminate (comedy value) characters there. I wouldnt have guessed the sexuality of any of them just from the way they acted or spoke and in the main that is how it is in real life.

quote:

Originally posted by ParentPride:

quote:

Originally posted by Trollop:
Instead of complaining Ennis why dont you offer yourself up as a documentry to Channel 4 so we can all see what a balanced responsible homosexual looks like?

I suspect your not so different from a lot of us here

Below the belt immature comments...they do say that sarcasm is the LOWEST form of wit don't they!.....well done Trollop!

P.S. nice name!

The comment was not meant as sarcastic, glib maybe - the point I was making is that I'm sure we are not all so different! I am somewhat surprised at the amount of anger generated in the posts here! And I am not going to loose my sense of humour over it. Any arguments made in anger are the ones most people will not listen to in any event.

Glad you like the name - its mine and I'm holding onto it! Providing your were'nt being sarcastic that is

I for one really didnt like 'Queer as Folk', it can't be said to be any more or less representative of modern homosexual life than 'Clapham Junction' was but at least some of the characters in CJ were likable. None of the characters in QAF were in any way likeable and in the eyes of the law, the main character did have sex with someone under the legal age - in fact, I'm sure the age difference wasnt far off the one shown in CJ. I liked many of the characters in CJ: the waiter, the tv writer, the Dr who got married, the poor guy who got beaten up by Paul Nicholls...

I'm sure some, or even most, of the content was quite enjoyable for my adolescnet son!...

and by the way no offence taken because I don't know you and nothing you say would, or indeed, could offend me, only someone I care about could have that effect on me!

Oh yes, Queer as folk was full of controversy and steriotypes but it was also ground breaking for it's time and at best it did show some diversity with the charactors!...was good a?

Whilst the description on the channel 4 page does not mention homophobia I'm afaraid to say that you are wrong and the issue of homophobia were mentioned right before the programmme was broadcast, perhaps you missed that bit!

It clearly stated that this was drama looking at the life as a gay man in todays Britain and asks if with changing attitudes if homophobia still exists today! That's what was said!...I have it on tape!...yippeeee for me!

QUOTE] Glad you like the name - its mine and I'm holding onto it! Providing your were'nt being sarcastic that is [/QUOTE]

No, I was being sarcastic!....as in being abit cheeky!

C'mon, lets all have a hug!!!!

Well, as long as your over 16 cos I am a mature lady don't ya know!...lol!

quote:

Originally posted by ParentPride:
QUOTE] Glad you like the name - its mine and I'm holding onto it! Providing your were'nt being sarcastic that is

No, I was being sarcastic!....as in being abit cheeky!

C'mon, lets all have a hug!!!!

Well, as long as your over 16 cos I am a mature lady don't ya know!...lol![/QUOTE]

See its ok for you to be sarcastic but not the opposition Hypocrisy!

But being as your a mature lady I'll hug you anyways

I said that it was illegal for a man to have sex with a 14 Year old Boy.

In Ireland it is illegal to have sex with a 16 Year old Boy, (the Gay Age Of Consent is 17), & in the USA, it is 18. In the UK it used to be 21.

At no time did the Film suggest that ALL Gay Men would sexually respond to a 14 Year old Boy who was 'coming on' to him.

In some Films Heterosexual Husbands beat thrir Wives up - night after night - but, I never hear anyone saying that this makes it look like ALL Hetero Men do it, or are capable of it!

By the way - 'Queer As Folk' showed a 15 Year Old Boy having explicit Gay Sex with a Man - it did!

Maybe we should all pretend that no one ever has underage sex - Mary Whitehouse would certainly have wanted that!

So, I think that some people are really over reacting when they suggest that because 1 Man in 1 Film about Gays has Sex with a 14 Year old Boy, it gives the idea that we ALL are capable of it!

Only bigots would use that Film as an excuse to tarnish all Gay Men with the same brush! No doubt some will. (At the 'Daily Mirror' Forums - TV Section - 2 people have made it clear that they see the C4 Gay Season as 'sick, & the legalisation of Gay Sex as 'sick'. So far, they have put 5 Posts there saying that they think Gay People are 'sick', & that Gay Sex should never have been legalised - I call that Homophobia, as if they did it about a Channel 4 Season on Black Culture, they would be in trouble for Racism....).

As I said, it would do ALL Gay Men a world of good to endure about 3 Weeks of 'Coronation Street', to see how their token Gay Man - Sean - is portrayed. He is an embarrassment!

I have seen my 15 Year old Nephew & his Mates watching it, & saying, 'Is that a woman?', everytime Sean comes on!

'Clapham Junction' is nothing offensive, after you see Sean - except for the gross violence in the Channel 4 Film, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by ParentPride:
I'm sure some, or even most, of the content was quite enjoyable for my adolescnet son!...

Glad to hear it! One of the other "Proud Mothers" who posted here had a similarly over-the-top reaction to yours, fearing that her son's self-confidence would be shattered by the film.

quote:

Originally posted by ParentPride:
Whilst the description on the channel 4 page does not mention homophobia I'm afaraid to say that you are wrong and the issue of homophobia were mentioned right before the programmme was broadcast, perhaps you missed that bit!

It clearly stated that this was drama looking at the life as a gay man in todays Britain and asks if with changing attitudes if homophobia still exists today! That's what was said!...I have it on tape!...yippeeee for me!

I didn't miss the announcement. It did indeed say the programme was about gay men in Britain today (which it was) and ask if homophobia still exists (which, as the film showed, it does, both at posh dinner parties and in hideous acts of mindless violence). You seem to have misheard the announcement as "There follows a programme about homophobia in today's Britain and why it is wrong and what you can do about it".

quote:

Originally posted by ParentPride:
and by the way no offence taken because I don't know you and nothing you say would, or indeed, could offend me, only someone I care about could have that effect on me!

For someone who makes such a noise about what a caring person you are, I find that dismissive remark surprisingly disrespectful and frankly offensive. But since you don't concern yourself with the feelings of people you don't "care about" I don't suppose that will bother you.

Dr Casper Returns. quote. For someone who makes such a noise about what a caring person you are, I find that dismissive remark surprisingly disrespectful and frankly offensive. But since you don't concern yourself with the feelings of people you don't "care about" I don't suppose that will bother you. End quote.

Misinterpreted again...it's getting quite boring now!

I DID NOT say at any point that I did not care about anyone else's feelings, nor was this implied! I simply said 'you' had not offended 'me' when you, as a grown man I presume, made refrence to my 15 year old son maybe being sexually aroused or 'CROSSING HIS LEGS' whilst watching Clapham Junction.

Look here at what you wrote and I think you will find that your comment was in fact sarcastic as you said....

How much of the film did your son watch with his legs crossed?! (I'm gambling that you won't take offence at that question, as you have such a good relationship etc)


Just because I refuse to be offended by your sarcastic comment does not mean I have no regard for other people, it simply means that I do have regard for myself and I refuse to be made to feel in anyway uncomfortable by someone that makes the kind of comments that you do!....full stop!
-----------------------------------------------
You also wrote:
For someone who makes such a noise about what a caring person you are, I find that dismissive remark surprisingly disrespectful and frankly offensive. But since you don't concern yourself with the feelings of people you don't "care about" I don't suppose that will bother you.
------------------------------------------------

What are you trying to achive with such personal 'offensive' attacks?...it makes me wonder why someone would say such things that are so unnessary!

Further more I am begining to feel quite uncomfotable with this conversation and for future reference would prefer it if you no longer refer to my son in any way as yes, with reflection I do think your 'crossed leg comments' were slightly offensive and I am so disapointed that I have allowed myself to be affected by someone like you who so obviously lacks integrity.

Nice attempt at revisionism. You treated my courtesy with disdain, which is sufficient reason for me to disregard any of your further attacks on my integrity.

I wish you and your family well, but feel there is no benefit in my continuing to attempt to contribute to this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr Casper Returns:
Nice attempt at revisionism. You treated my courtesy with disdain, which is sufficient reason for me to disregard any of your further attacks on my integrity.

I wish you and your family well, but feel there is no benefit in my continuing to attempt to contribute to this thread.

I do not beleive your behavior or comments to be at all polite or considerate of my feelings as a Mother. You personally attacked me and was sarcastic in reference to my relationship with my Son.

You also made refrence to another Mother on this forum:

One of the other "Proud Mothers" who posted here had a similarly over-the-top reaction to yours, fearing that her son's self-confidence would be shattered by the film.

I think that your comment about the Mother's
'over-the-top reaction' was very disrespectful and not at all curtious as you so seem to imply you are.


If you look back at your posts you, if honest, I hope you will be able to see my point of veiw. You entered into discussion with me and refered to my son and I responded in all honesty and respect, it is a shame that you now feel that you have nothing more to contrubute to bring a peacful resolve to our disagreement.

I wish you well, Lorraine.

quote:

5) The truth is that far too much of the 'Gay Scene' is obsessed with Youth & Good Looks - if you have neither, you are very often treated like you ought not to be in Gay Saunas or Clubs. You are made to feel like unwanted garbage. Like you have no right to even be in such places.

Thanks for reminding me about this. It's surprisingly true, most gay men are extremely shallow in this department. But then again alot of st8 men are also. I'm called passed it and I'm 26, LOL!

The gay scene really is a harsh and brutal world, which creates some messed up gay men. If you spend a reasonable ammount of time on it you have to keep yourself in check to stop your attitudes and behaviour changing. I've seen it so often, young 17 year olds that start out sweet and innocent but look at them 5 more years down the line they are different people.

The so called "gay lifestyle" was born out of desperation and repression. If you repressed yourself on a daily basis wouldn't you go wild for the small ammount of time you can actually be yourself? It's not going to change anytime soon, not until homophobia is significantly reduced. Certainly not until we are free to be affectionate in public without fear.

I thought CJ was a wide awakening for many people that turn their head that some of these things go on. In particular the drugs and excessive sex. Yes I say excessive, because multiple sexual partners a day is excessive in my eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by poseidonguy777:
I said that it was illegal for a man to have sex with a 14 Year old Boy.

In Ireland it is illegal to have sex with a 16 Year old Boy, (the Gay Age Of Consent is 17), & in the USA, it is 18. In the UK it used to be 21.

At no time did the Film suggest that ALL Gay Men would sexually respond to a 14 Year old Boy who was 'coming on' to him.

In some Films Heterosexual Husbands beat thrir Wives up - night after night - but, I never hear anyone saying that this makes it look like ALL Hetero Men do it, or are capable of it!

By the way - 'Queer As Folk' showed a 15 Year Old Boy having explicit Gay Sex with a Man - it did!

Maybe we should all pretend that no one ever has underage sex - Mary Whitehouse would certainly have wanted that!

So, I think that some people are really over reacting when they suggest that because 1 Man in 1 Film about Gays has Sex with a 14 Year old Boy, it gives the idea that we ALL are capable of it!

Only bigots would use that Film as an excuse to tarnish all Gay Men with the same brush! No doubt some will. (At the 'Daily Mirror' Forums - TV Section - 2 people have made it clear that they see the C4 Gay Season as 'sick, & the legalisation of Gay Sex as 'sick'. So far, they have put 5 Posts there saying that they think Gay People are 'sick', & that Gay Sex should never have been legalised - I call that Homophobia, as if they did it about a Channel 4 Season on Black Culture, they would be in trouble for Racism....).

As I said, it would do ALL Gay Men a world of good to endure about 3 Weeks of 'Coronation Street', to see how their token Gay Man - Sean - is portrayed. He is an embarrassment!

I have seen my 15 Year old Nephew & his Mates watching it, & saying, 'Is that a woman?', everytime Sean comes on!

'Clapham Junction' is nothing offensive, after you see Sean - except for the gross violence in the Channel 4 Film, of course.

...you raised a lot of good points poseideon, and I totally agree that sean from corrie is a total embarrassment. These soaps are built around a dated white heterosexual communities. And naturally not just gay people but asian and people of other ethniciities, anyone who is different, do not really fit in, and because the way these soaps are constructed, means that often these token characters are neither realistic nor interesting, and very much an embarassment. I think clapham junction was good drama, it was bleak but what true drama isnt? I think its unfair of the people who are moaning to assume that everyone believes the same as them, I for example related to the story of theo and tim, (14yr old and older man as they have become known lol), particularly the loneliness and repression, and sexual awakening. I would not have had the bottle to do what theo did when I was 14 but It was important story, and was probably the first time a gay young person was depicted properly, with dignity and not in a crasse sensationalist way as QAF did. That story gave shiver down my spine, and it was deeply moving, particularly the rejection of theo at the end when tim closes the curtain on him.