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Parent Pride, Even though we did not see eye to eye regarding the 'value' of Clapham Jucntion I hope none of my posts offended you in anyway. If they did I sincerley apologise as this was not my intention. I would like to reassure you that I think it's wonderful that you have such a close relationship with your son. I myself have an extremely supportive mother whom I also share a very close relationship with. I tell her virtually everything, good and bad, lol. I believe that you are doing everything in your power to show him this and, judging by your volunteer work, seem to be really pushing the boat out on this matter. Hats off to you. I do agree with you that CJ wasn't a suitable programme for anyone that is trying to come to terms with their sexuality. It does not show any light at the end of the tunnel. It also was a little inappropriate to be in a 'gay season' which attempts to 'celebrate' the gay civil rights movement. However, notwithstanding my previous comments, I believed CJ did have value as a drama, despite being a little dated. It does however have to be viewed objectively, with intelligence and possibly debate. I simply wanted to let you know, that I wished more gay teenagers, and indeed adults, had more understanding parents like yourself. 
*** Loving: Brian, Nicky, Charley, Chanelle, Carole ***
*** Loathing: Ziggy, Tracey, Gerry, Liam, Twins ***
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quote: Originally posted by swin: Parent Pride, Even though we did not see eye to eye regarding the 'value' of Clapham Jucntion I hope none of my posts offended you in anyway. If they did I sincerley apologise as this was not my intention. I would like to reassure you that I think it's wonderful that you have such a close relationship with your son. I myself have an extremely supportive mother whom I also share a very close relationship with. I tell her virtually everything, good and bad, lol. I believe that you are doing everything in your power to show him this and, judging by your volunteer work, seem to be really pushing the boat out on this matter. Hats off to you. I do agree with you that CJ wasn't a suitable programme for anyone that is trying to come to terms with their sexuality. It does not show any light at the end of the tunnel. It also was a little inappropriate to be in a 'gay season' which attempts to 'celebrate' the gay civil rights movement. However, notwithstanding my previous comments, I believed CJ did have value as a drama, despite being a little dated. It does however have to be viewed objectively, with intelligence and possibly debate. I simply wanted to let you know, that I wished more gay teenagers, and indeed adults, had more understanding parents like yourself.
Thank you so much for your kind message Swin. No, you have not offended me but I thank you very much for caring enough to enquire about my feelings. I also hope that I have not offended you in anyway, or indeed anyone here, as that too would not be my intention. I know we had diffrent opinions on CP but I don't feel that this was, or is, a problem at all and it has been very good to dicuss the diffrent aspects of this programe with you. To be honest I have since watched CP again and tried to look at it with fresh eyes and to veiw it objectively. I must say it was still difficult to watch at times and as much as I still stand by my original thoughts overall I could see some of the other sides to the programe that you have mentioned in your other posts. With exception to you Swin and some others here, I have just become so exasperated with my words being misinterpreted or twisted in some way... I'm just a Mum trying to do her best to support all my children, and yes, in alot of ways, I do worry about my youngest son more because of his sexuality because I am not naive enough to not recognise that he may have to face more difficult and diffrent obstacles to that of his siblings.... now I feel like I have to clarify that yes, we all face diffrent obstacles and so on and so on! Really, I just feel so defensive here now and I was in tears over some of the posts that some others have left with regard to me as a Mum. That is a really big thing for me to have to admit to myself because in 'my own life' I have had to overcome many personal difficulties and traumas and I promised myself that I would never again give away my personal power and let anyones opinions of me, other than my family, bother or hurt me...this, I have had to do simply for my own self preservation.....and yet I have allowed that to happen here! I wish you all the best Swin, thank you for our discussions and so forth and again thank you for your kind concern. Lorraine x
My Madness Keeps Me Sane!
Remembering 'Peter Wildeblood' (19 May 1923 - 14 November 1999)
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It's good to see some calm, reasoned exchanges on this thread.
I do realise Lorraine that your original complaint (for want of a better word) was that the whole thing seemed so very doom and gloom and it was indeed a very dark drama. All the same, I think it was a very good one.
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I am appauled and was furious over this program. I am 19 and have always been gay and i am with an older partner who is 35.
I beleive this program has caused much damage to the gay community. The program seemed to have promoted gay as dirty, cheap and in my opinion took 2007 back 40 years and also feel it was trying to or did change peoples minds about gay. I live in a small area and gay is not much accepted as people make it out to be. Unless you live in a city it will never be easy to be gay in small areas. I was very worried going out after watching the program as i was worried people where i lived watched it and there views may have changed about me and that i may get grieve, thankfuly i did not but i am looked at and talked about alot when out with my partner. We never touch, kiss or anything in puplic so we do not offend anyone even thou sometimes it would be nice.
I was very upset to see how the program was made. The boy who was killed for being gay really hurt me and i felt the grieve his family must have been feeling as in real life 2 gay people has died within 2 years because of there sexuality. Also the word "Queer" i find offending as nowadays many people refer it to "someone interfereing with children" which in this program a young boy of 14 i beleive his age was enticed and elder man to have sex with him. I thought it was wrong that he fell for the boys enticement and yes that is wrong but remember it is also hetrosexuals who also does the same thing not just homosexuals.
All i can say is that the program promoted gay as wrong doing and made us sound as if we was dirty, in the wrong, changing peoples views of gay. society is still not that good at accepting it in my opinion and even thou it is being far more accepted at a slow pace this program certainly did not help.
Can someone give me the info on how i make an official complaint to Channel 4 regarding 'Clapham Junction'?
Thank you,
Mat
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quote: All i can say is that the program promoted gay as wrong doing and made us sound as if we was dirty, in the wrong, changing peoples views of gay. society is still not that good at accepting it in my opinion and even thou it is being far more accepted at a slow pace this program certainly did not help
As someone said on last night's TV discussion, Clapham Junction could've been made as propaganda for the Catholic church. And there's a thread on here with some links of places where you can make a formal complaint. Other people have done so, including myself. |
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"I was deeply upset at the depiction of sex between a 30 year old man and a 14 year old boy"
Hmmmm, I find your comments most annoying and aggravating. Yet another straight woman commenting on what was for me a ruined adolescence due to the very attitudes she is expressing.
I found the 14 year boy lusting after the older man story the most realistic part of the drama. That could have been me at age 14. They got exactly right the blind lust and obsession of a 14 year old.
When I was 14 I went out looking for a man, just walking the streets. But I didn't find one. I remember staring fixedly at men, wanting to be shown what sex was all about. I didn't know about 'cottages', I didn't know where to find anyone.
I would have loved to have had a relationship with an older man.
And my experiences seem to have been pretty common for gay men of that age ie at 14. Most of my gay friends all had similar feelings when that age, and all found that part of the drama Clapham Junction to be the most realistic.
Other 14 year olds are just not suitable as sexual and emotional teachers, for one thing they're all intensely anti-gay, or were when I was young.
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quote: Originally posted by ParentPride: quote: Originally posted by Talldave:
"I was deeply upset at the depiction of sex between a 30 year old man and a 14 year old boy"
Hmmmm, I find your comments most annoying and aggravating. Yet another straight woman commenting on what was for me a ruined adolescence due to the very attitudes she is expressing.
I found the 14 year boy lusting after the older man story the most realistic part of the drama. That could have been me at age 14. They got exactly right the blind lust and obsession of a 14 year old.
When I was 14 I went out looking for a man, just walking the streets. But I didn't find one. I remember staring fixedly at men, wanting to be shown what sex was all about. I didn't know about 'cottages', I didn't know where to find anyone.
I would have loved to have had a relationship with an older man.
And my experiences seem to have been pretty common for gay men of that age ie at 14. Most of my gay friends all had similar feelings when that age, and all found that part of the drama Clapham Junction to be the most realistic.
Other 14 year olds are just not suitable as sexual and emotional teachers, for one thing they're all intensely anti-gay, or were when I was young.
Was you quoting me at the top of your post?...you failed to make it clear! Anyway, I hope you was 'not' refering your rude comments to me?...if you were I suggest you go back and properly read my posts and 'my' very valid concerns about CP!!!! It's my opinion and I have a right to them just as much as you!
========== Yes, I was commenting on the entire of your annoying piece. I didn't put the whole of your comment in as it was too long. I shall write to stonewall and C4 expressing the opposite of your opinion - namely, that to me, it was the best and most realistic part of Clapham Junction. |
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I was somewhat surprised on visiting this forum to see so many were upset by this drama. I think one has to take into account that it is a work of fiction, albeit inspired by real-life events, commissioned to mark the 40th Anniversary of gay sex between men being made legal. Despite the 1967 change in law, everything in the garden is far from rosy, and I think that is what this drama was trying to say. While I've never indulged in drugs, cottaging or outdoor cruising, I'd be naive to think that they aren't still a part of many gay men's lives. Boys do get bullied at school and called 'gay' if they happen to be different, as depicted by the violin player (there was nothing to suggest he actually was gay). There are married men who engage in furtive gay sex when they have the opportunity. There are also gay teenagers who will try to seduce older men. I myself have a reported a user on the Gaydar chat rooms after he boasted he was fifteen. Unfortunately we know people do get attacked and killed in homophobic instances (a friend of mine was kicked to death a few years back). I myself have been verbally and physically assaulted because of my sexuality. There are also some who are full of self-loathing either because of their own sexuality, or the way they are perceived by others. Remember Colin Ireland, who visited a gay pub regularly and picked up five gay men and murdered them. Also remember David Copeland who bombed the Admiral Duncan pub in London. I seem to recall reading somewhere that gay men (or those perceived to be gay), are up to five times more likely to murdered than the general population. There are undoubtedly some, as shown in the drama, when told by someone that they are gay who will respond with, Really, how nice. Do you have a civil partner?, while privately been disgusted. Naturally I'm pleased that being gay is more socially acceptable than it was, even ten years ago. I applaud those who have worked to bring such changes about and who continue to work for the good of gay people. It is heartening to hear that in this day and age a 15-year old boy can tell his mother he is gay, and for his mother to be accepting and supportive. However, that belongs in another drama. This one was intended to be provocative by saying, we may have had positive changes in legislation over the last 40 years, and improvements in social acceptability, yet people still get beaten up and killed and find it difficult to come to terms with their sexuality.
Kris
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quote: Originally posted by Kris Jones:
Naturally I'm pleased that being gay is more socially acceptable than it was, even ten years ago. I applaud those who have worked to bring such changes about and who continue to work for the good of gay people. It is heartening to hear that in this day and age a 15-year old boy can tell his mother he is gay, and for his mother to be accepting and supportive. However, that belongs in another drama. This one was intended to be provocative by saying, we may have had positive changes in legislation over the last 40 years, and improvements in social acceptability, yet people still get beaten up and killed and find it difficult to come to terms with their sexuality.
I agree. In view of the very many complaints that Channel 4 appear to have received over this programme, it might be worth adding some balance by giving them some more positive feedback. |
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I beleive the now conventional point of view that adults should ALWAYS resist temptation is deeply floored. 1/ it can make the child and adult feel that their feelings are wrong and even perverted - shame and guilt have their place, thank "God" most Germans feel ashamed of their country's Nazi past. But shame (and the lack of percieved trust and acceptance) experienced by children can/will lead them open to further abuse, and guilt by adults can mean adults do not confront uncomfortable issue and may make them project that guilt/fear/anger onto the child, perhaps even death. 2/ what does the harm to children(adults) in abusive situations - I suspect it is force, percieved selfishness("being used") and feelings of insignificance. And guilt of enjoying something that is wrong and "evil" and does not feel that way. Some thing that may make them feel special, wanted, loved and cared for. 3/ Why is it that we beleive that in all other areas of education that experience and knowledge is necessary and required. But we let children fubble with their mutual anxieties, giving little real positive guidance - even closing our eyes and hoping childhood sexuality will go away. Allowing bullying and abuse between children to take place, and screw up and negatively influence future relationships within their peer group. 4/ Who is better placed than a parent / nominated societal expert - a person chosen by the child 5/ Oscar wilde said "give into temptation, and it will loose its power over you" 6/ many adults I beleive are youth obssessed and jellous. many "young" people feel disgust and fear about older people and aging. And dont respect and like old people - I don't think this is a co-incidence 7/ safer sex is more likely, as adults generally feel more protective to children. I hope I now don't get eaten alive and labelled, for having a thought experiment!   quote: Originally posted by monsumo: quote: Originally posted by mahhagany:
I may get shot for this but I honestly did not see what happened between the 14 year old boy and the 30-something year old man as Paedophilia. Yes given the ages of those involved it would definitely be classified by law as such but lets use some common sense here. I will try to explain this without being too graphic. Paedophilia to me conjures up images of a pre-pubescent boy unwillingly been in the receiving position while the man is in the 'doer' after having coached his victim.
In the scene being discussed we have a over-sexed 14 year old boy who looks more like 17/18 stalking and fantasizing about a man who does not seem to pay him the slightest attention at first. This boy pleasures himself whenever he watches this man before eventually going all the way over to the man's house, forcing himself in; refuses to piss off after been told many a time to do so by the man and when they finally sleep together it is the boy 'child' who is the 'perpetrator' while the man is in the submissive position. Sorry I don't see what happened there as paedophilia as we know it...well as I know it. I sure many of us were not aware of how old this boy really was until his mum said it; had the character not made a point of mentioning his age, many of us could have assumed that he was 17 or 18. At least when the older man became aware of the boy's age he made a point of closing his curtains so that the boy could no longer watch him when to satisfy his lust by touching himself.
Well actually, I thought it was pretty clear that the older bloke knew he was underage. He said to him "what are you, 13? 14" and then just before the parents turned up to the door he said something along the lines of "don't say anything, because that will mess things up". The fact that the mother of the young boy has already heard of 'rumours' of his past - it's pretty obvious that he was a paedophile and knew that the boy was underage. Having said that, he didn't exactly 'groom' the boy. He slammed the door a few times, but the boy kept sticking his foot into the door and ended up hurting himself so the older guy was forced to let him in. However, his mother remarks that she could smell alcohol on the boy which suggest that the older man gave him alcohol - which is questionable and left things ambiguous. Regardless though, it was clear from the very start that the young boy wanted something to happen. The older man should have rejected him, but he didn't. I am in no way advocating paedophilia but I think that in this case there no real harm done - except for perhaps the rejection of the younger boy when the older man shut his curtains at the end.
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quote: Originally posted by Kris Jones:
I was somewhat surprised on visiting this forum to see so many were upset by this drama. I think one has to take into account that it is a work of fiction, albeit inspired by real-life events, commissioned to mark the 40th Anniversary of gay sex between men being made legal.
Despite the 1967 change in law, everything in the garden is far from rosy, and I think that is what this drama was trying to say. While I've never indulged in drugs, cottaging or outdoor cruising, I'd be naive to think that they aren't still a part of many gay men's lives.
Boys do get bullied at school and called 'gay' if they happen to be different, as depicted by the violin player (there was nothing to suggest he actually was gay). There are married men who engage in furtive gay sex when they have the opportunity. There are also gay teenagers who will try to seduce older men. I myself have a reported a user on the Gaydar chat rooms after he boasted he was fifteen. Unfortunately we know people do get attacked and killed in homophobic instances (a friend of mine was kicked to death a few years back). I myself have been verbally and physically assaulted because of my sexuality. There are also some who are full of self-loathing either because of their own sexuality, or the way they are perceived by others. Remember Colin Ireland, who visited a gay pub regularly and picked up five gay men and murdered them. Also remember David Copeland who bombed the Admiral Duncan pub in London. I seem to recall reading somewhere that gay men (or those perceived to be gay), are up to five times more likely to murdered than the general population.
There are undoubtedly some, as shown in the drama, when told by someone that they are gay who will respond with, Really, how nice. Do you have a civil partner?, while privately been disgusted.
Naturally I'm pleased that being gay is more socially acceptable than it was, even ten years ago. I applaud those who have worked to bring such changes about and who continue to work for the good of gay people. It is heartening to hear that in this day and age a 15-year old boy can tell his mother he is gay, and for his mother to be accepting and supportive. However, that belongs in another drama. This one was intended to be provocative by saying, we may have had positive changes in legislation over the last 40 years, and improvements in social acceptability, yet people still get beaten up and killed and find it difficult to come to terms with their sexuality.
...at last someone who could see exactly the reason for this provocative drama! Ver uncomfortable viewing but look at the deep feeling it has aroused on this forum. Ity has got us all, gay and straight, thinking about our own attitudes. That can only be a good thing. ParentPride, I wasn't attacking your parent skills in any way, and I think it's great that you are so supportive of your son. As I said you have my sympathy in tackling what must be a pretty hard situation to deal with. The worry must be immense especially seeing some of those scenes in the programme. I do however think one of the best things I can see about being gay, coming from a straight woman, is the freedom it buys you without the constraints of having to live completely monogamously in couples. It's hard for straight women to get their heads around that sometimes I think.
Pass me the remote love.....
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I would like to take this opportunity to thank ParentPride for starting this particular strand and all the other participants who have contributed.
I have found the debate that Clapham Junction has generated, personally very useful.
I am all talk and no trousers, unlike parent pride in this arena
I am pretty sure that few,in any, people here will openly agree with the substance of what i am saying. Particularly becuause it is expressed in, i am sure, such an arrogant and poorly expressed manner.
I suppose I feel it is not worth my while and the time and effort, to express my point of view, in a more user friendly format
In my life I have seen such pain and suffering, and felt such pain and suffering, that "paranoia is my self-cure for insignificance"
I now feel, I am expressing myself to a void that has no solutions or comfort. But never the less I am choosing to express myself anyway because that art form, called drama has released my pain for a moment or too
How many children suffer from shame and abuse, far more profound than mine or yours - simply because of fear of a, real open and honest debate.
my "God" I love and hate humanity, i feel like crawling back into my cave and just living my life as a normal person. But normal society is a psychotic s/m institution, influenced by a darker past
PLEASE turn fury into passion, because i am too tired at present. My soul is too weak for trying.
Time for a cup of tea, a brisk walk and a Mika album!
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quote: Originally posted by nascent*angel:
I would like to take this opportunity to thank ParentPride for starting this particular strand and all the other participants who have contributed.
I have found the debate that Clapham Junction has generated, personally very useful.
I am all talk and no trousers, unlike parent pride in this arena
I am pretty sure that few,in any, people here will openly agree with the substance of what i am saying. Particularly becuause it is expressed in, i am sure, such an arrogant and poorly expressed manner.
I suppose I feel it is not worth my while and the time and effort, to express my point of view, in a more user friendly format
In my life I have seen such pain and suffering, and felt such pain and suffering, that "paranoia is my self-cure for insignificance"
I now feel, I am expressing myself to a void that has no solutions or comfort. But never the less I am choosing to express myself anyway because that art form, called drama has released my pain for a moment or too
How many children suffer from shame and abuse, far more profound than mine or yours - simply because of fear of a, real open and honest debate.
my "God" I love and hate humanity, i feel like crawling back into my cave and just living my life as a normal person. But normal society is a psychotic s/m institution, influenced by a darker past
PLEASE turn fury into passion, because i am too tired at present. My soul is too weak for trying.
Time for a cup of tea, a brisk walk and a Mika album!
You listen to Mika...no wonder your soul is weak!  
The devil made me wear this dress...
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