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So, in those areas where migration age germanic input was not as high, I don't think we can assume the idindigenous populations were germanic at all. It's why I ask the question, are there any studies?

Harry,

I am not implying that the indigenous populations were Germanic, only that they may have been genetically indistinguishable from the Germanic peoples of North West Europe. One must bear in mind that the Germanic peoples were not a single genetic type and the Celtic peoples were also not just one genetic type. The titles Germanic and Celtic were primarily linguistic labels. Thus it is quite probable that the Belgae and Franks shared similar genetic ancestries, but spoke languages from the Celtic and Germanic families respectively.

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Or lower numbers of Danes enforcing the name changes on the anglian population. I don't know why Streaneshalch changed to Whitby, but I don't think we should just assume that this indicate a wholesale change in population.

I agree totally. I have never subscribed to the wholesale population change hypothesis. Even in York (probably the most ‘Germanic’ part of England), the genetic data still indicates a 30% indigenous British survival. Unfortunately, DNA analysis cannot give us the A/S v Danish split in the Danelaw Region.

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Thus it is quite probable that the Belgae and Franks shared similar genetic ancestries, but spoke languages from the Celtic and Germanic families respectively.

Modern day dutch and flemmish linguistically are closest to the Franks, but this was a population movement. Franks don't appear until the 3rd cent and are most probably a confederation of the Chamavi, Sugambri, Batavi, Chattuari, Amsivari, Bructeri and Usipi. Many of these may be descended from the Jastorf culture of northern germany which shared a similar culture to that in southern scandinavia.

Whether the Franks assimilated or displaced the Belgic tibes of the Menapi, Nervii, Morini etc is unknown. Nor is much known of their respective origins so I think it goes too far to claim that it is quite probable that they share genetic affinities with the early germanic tribes.

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Whether the Franks assimilated or displaced the Belgic tibes of the Menapi, Nervii, Morini etc is unknown. Nor is much known of their respective origins so I think it goes too far to claim that it is quite probable that they share genetic affinities with the early germanic tribes.

Harry,

My comment concerning the probable genetic similarities between the Belgae and the Franks was based entirely on genetic data from the area, and not on any assumptions concerning their history or origins. If you recall, Rosser et al concluded that genetic signatures were far more influenced by geography than by language.

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If you recall, Rosser et al concluded that genetic signatures were far more influenced by geography than by language.

Yes. This is clearly demonstrated by the Basque signatures, a Vasconic language group and the very close affiliation with the Irish signatures, where an Indo European language.

It's shame that there are no yDNA studies equivalent to Capelli's for Belgium or France which would show regional variations if they existed, something I am sure they would. For example, how do the yDNA signatures for Wallonia differ from those of Flanders? But, the nature of the study is to lump all the results for a country together.

This 'averaging' for a country, except for England and Scotland where two regions are given, doesn't help us. It does show Scotland, Cornwall, and Ireland grouped and in the same part of the plot as the Basques, with Belgium and Spain closer than East Anglia, Denmark and the Netherlands further to the left, moving towards Germany and Norway. My guess is that, if Belgium were split into regions, Wallonia would be closer to Ireland and Flanders closer to the Netherlands. I guess to France would show great regional diversity.

If you do ever find a regional study for either of these areas, please let me know. Likewise I will reciprocate.

Have you see the McEvoy et al study? Although they did some of their own sampling (from memory) they also used results from previous studies to get a wider ranging picture.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n4/41464/41464.web.pdf

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It's shame that there are no yDNA studies equivalent to Capelli's for Belgium or France which would show regional variations if they existed, something I am sure they would. For example, how do the yDNA signatures for Wallonia differ from those of Flanders? But, the nature of the study is to lump all the results for a country together.

This 'averaging' for a country, except for England and Scotland where two regions are given, doesn't help us. It does show Scotland, Cornwall, and Ireland grouped and in the same part of the plot as the Basques, with Belgium and Spain closer than East Anglia, Denmark and the Netherlands further to the left, moving towards Germany and Norway. My guess is that, if Belgium were split into regions, Wallonia would be closer to Ireland and Flanders closer to the Netherlands. I guess to France would show great regional diversity.

Harry,

I don’t think the results for each country are an average for the whole country. Figure 6B (Rosser et al) gives the geographical locations (nodes) of the sampled populations.

It is possible that Wallonia and Flanders could be genetically separate, although different cultural/linguistic backgrounds do not necessarily imply genetic differences. Certainly there seems to be a higher percentage of men with Haplogroup Hg1 (which includes the Atlantic Modal Haplotype) in Belgium than in the neighbouring countries, but whether or not the percentage approaches the Western British levels in any locality is not clear.

It would also be interesting to see if there are regional variations in France. For instance, is Hg1 prominent along the length of the Western Seaboard? If it was found to be, it could raise doubts as to whether this signature in Brittany was due primarily to 5/6th century migrations from Dumnonia, or pre-dated such migrations.

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If you do ever find a regional study for either of these areas, please let me know. Likewise I will reciprocate.

I certainly will.

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Have you see the McEvoy et al study? Although they did some of their own sampling (from memory) they also used results from previous studies to get a wider ranging picture.

Yes, I am familiar with the McEvoy et al study. The main conclusion to be drawn from that study seems to be that male and female migrational events were not necessarily the same. I suppose that migrating males could have acquired partners en-route.