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Three Silver Stars
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Just a wee bit about the battle and the aftermath as going up on Saturday for a commemaration for the dead Jacobites as the annivesary of this battle is Sunday 16th April.Always find it hard at Culloden due to what happended and the place has the same feeling as Glencoe also

It was the greatest ever moment in the history of the Jacobite movement. Bonnie Prince Charlie and his army had victoriously marched down through England, and were poised to strike at London itself.
Then, at the very moment of their triumph, the Young Pretender and his forces decided to turn back and retreat to Scotland.

It was a decision which eventually turned out to be a disaster, because it led to their bloody and inglorious defeat at Culloden - the last military battle ever to be fought on British soil.

With the capital in panic at the thought of a Jacobite advance, the prince was determined to press on to try and secure the British throne for his father, the exiled would be James VIII. However, his chief lieutenants knew that victory would be no easy matter. As the prince's forces had marched south, they had not secured territory behind them.
Two of the king's most formidable military commanders, General George Wade and the Duke of Cumberland, were in pursuit and London itself had a large militia of loyalist troops ready to take the prince on. The sensible thing to do, it seemed, was to pull back. Charles sullenly agreed and, on December 6, 1745, the retreat started.

On his way north, the Scots fought off an attack at Clifton, in the Lake District and left 400 men to garrison the castle in Carlisle.
On Christmas day, Charles reached Glasgow and found he had huge problems picking up support for his cause. The city was strongly pro-government, and hundreds of its men were fighting on the Hanoverian side against him. Reluctantly - and probably more to get rid of him than anything - Glaswegians did provide Charles with provisions to refit his army, which left 10 days later. By now, Edinburgh had been reclaimed for the king by General Henry Hawley and the Jacobites knew that a showdown was in prospect. Reinforced by the arrival of a further 4000 troops, they finally came face to face with Hawley's forces at Falkirk.
The battle was a disaster for the Hanoverians. They lost ten times as many men as the prince - 400 to 40 - with most of the government forces fleeing the field and leaving behind their artillery and baggage.
Victory at Falkirk, combined with the fact that still more troops and supplies were arriving from France and elsewhere, bolstered the Jacobite army. With government forces continuing to press against him and with the clan chiefs insisting on returning to the Highlands, however, the only way Charles could realistically go was north. He tried and failed to seize Stirling Castle before arriving in Inverness and taking the town on February 18. Fort Augustus succumbed in March, though Fort William held out. By now, there was another problem: the able Duke of Cumberland was in pursuit of the Jacobite forces along with an army of 9000 men. A seasoned and intelligent military strategist - and son of the King - Cumberland would not make the sort of tactical mistake which had allowed the Jacobites to win the battles of Prestonpans and Falkirk.
By April 14, Cumberland was in Nairn, while the prince's army was only 10 miles west at Drummossie. Charles's Quartermaster General, John William O'Sullivan, decided that the best approach was to try and catch the Hanoverian forces by surprise. The Pretender's troops, by then tired out and hungry, marched to Nairn, only to find Cumberland's forces awake - they were celebrating their leaders 25th birthday. The Highlanders were then forced to trudge back to Drummossie, where they arrived, exhausted and demoralised, just after dawn.
Unknown to them, however, word had reached Cumberland that the enemy forces had tried to pounce on him. Knowing full well how tired and hungry the Jacobites were, he decided to attack them when they were at their weakest.
The two sides finally faced each other at Drummossie Moor, better known as Culloden, in a howling, freezing gale, on Wednesday, April 16, 1746. It was, as the prince's general Lord George Murray observed, a hopeless place to fight a Highland battle.
For the first time during the entire campaign, Charles decided to take personal command of his troops. He was outnumbered from the start - his 5000, ill shod, untrained and hungry men stood against nearly double the number of well fed, well equipped Hanoverians. Cumberland positioned his men, who were only about 400 yards away from the Jacobites, in two lines. The first was expected to break when the Highlanders attacked, but the second was carefully laid out three deep to provide massive and continuous firepower.

The battle began with an artillery barrage by the Hanoverian forces. It lasted only a few minutes, but cut down many of the prince's men before they had a chance to charge. When the charge finally came, despite all Cumberland's carefully prepared positions, the fierce Highlanders still managed to break through the Hanoverian left flank. It was not enough to overcome the disadvantages of inferior firepower and sheer weight of numbers.
The battle was over in less than an hour and some 750 of the Jacobites lay dead, while only about 360 Hanoverians had been killed.
Cumberland had proved to be an astute commander during the
battle - but the aftermath earned him the notorious nickname of "Butcher" and ensured that his name would be forever tarnished north of the border.
Determined to stamp the king's authority on a rebellious people, he let loose his soldiers in slaughter. The wounded were murdered where they lay and any prisoners were shot. A group of men found in a local barn, for instance, were simply locked in and left to burn to death.
In all, some 450 people, including innocent bystanders and women and children, are reckoned to have been slaughtered after the battle.
Some Jacobites were luckier - if you could call it that.
They were taken to Inverness, where they were put into jail, churches and even ships. There, many died of their wounds or of the cold. The government was determined to make an example of the leaders of the rebellion.
Some - among then Lord Lovat, who had not even been involved at the battle at Culloden - were tried and executed. Others were imprisoned for life.

For Bonnie Prince Charlie, however, there was to be no such ignominy.
The flower of the Stewarts had fled the battlefield of Culloden before the fighting had even finished. The hero of the Jacobite rising had become the most wanted man in Britain, with a price on his head that the English imagined would be too large for Scots to turn down.But they did
 
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Two Silver Stars
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Warney600, Nice piece and an interesting resume of the battle, and a very fair assessment from the little I know of the actual campaign. All war is brutal and the aftermath written up by the victors, but as I've said elsewhere on this forum to you, the English reaction after the battle did them little credit.

I hope you enjoy the day at the site - somewhere I've never yet been, but my brother in law tells me its a very moving place (he's English but married to a lass from Fife, so has Scots sensitivities I guess!) Please let us know what it was like on your latest visit.
 
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Before one goes overboard on Bonnie Prince Charlie and the brutal suppression of the Highlanders by the English it is worth pointing out that the the direct regimental descendents of the Royal Scots Fusiliers and the King's Own Scottish Borderers fought at Culloden. And it wasn't for the Jacobites.
 
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Originally posted by cottar:
Before one goes overboard on Bonnie Prince Charlie and the brutal suppression of the Highlanders by the English it is worth pointing out that the the direct regimental descendents of the Royal Scots Fusiliers and the King's Own Scottish Borderers fought at Culloden. And it wasn't for the Jacobites.


It wasn't even just some lowland Scots who fought on the government side, the Campbells fought for the government at Culluden. They played a crucial role in attacking the Jacobite flank as the highlanders charged.

There is also a story, though I can't remember the details, of a Highland chief who made one of his sons fight for the Jacobites and one fight for the government so that he would win either way. Anyone remember it?

If you go through the history of the previous Jacobite revolts, the 1715 and the rebellion by Bonnie Dundee in 1689, the revolts were suppressed with few actual English units being involved.
 
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Really good day and the speaches where all very good and Clann an Drumma where there who are brilliant, Culloden for me is not a nice place because of what happended and layed a wee White Rose beside the graves of the Stewart graves as I am a Stewart
Bretwalda Prince Michael was there also and had a good wee chat with him, He is a good guy, As for the Royal Scots and the Kings Own I know they fought for the Hanoverians and also the Black Watch who never fought at Culloden but where stared to Police the Highlands against the Jacobites
As for the Campbells the least said about them the better as it was them that was also involved at Glencoe
As for the chief you talk about that is true but not sure about his name though
As for the oher Jacobite uprisings there was ones, in 1689, 1690,1715,1718 and 1745
Also the Army of Charlie there was more Lowland Scots on the Jacobite side thyan Highlandres which is something people are not aware off.
Going to Stirling castle today for a demostration from us Jacobites as one of our friends was refused entry there last week for being dressed as a Highlander with a Jacobite Standard
If you canny get into a Scottish Castle with your National dress on what chance do you have
Not taking any weapons today as dont want to give the Police the chance to through us out
Will let you know how we get on
I am a modern day Jacobite but dont want to come across that the Jacobites where all brilliant as we had our faults also, but just a quick point for all the Hanoverians go on about Charlie not being well liked after Culloden NOT one Scot gave him up for a reward of £30,000 which in todays terms is probally 1 million pound
Also look at a bottle of Drambuie if you have a chance as the receipt was given to a Scot by Prince Charles Edward Stuart as a thank you for his help, The bottle confirms this
 
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Warney,
Great thread, just wondering as you obviously have a passion for the subject, to what effect did the new vaunted bayonet lunge to the right have on the highlanders.
Did it work or was it once in the melee of battle you had to fight the man in front of you.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Holdtheline:
Warney,
Great thread, just wondering as you obviously have a passion for the subject, to what effect did the new vaunted bayonet lunge to the right have on the highlanders.
Did it work or was it once in the melee of battle you had to fight the man in front of you.




Yes it did work unfortunaly, if you are looking at it from a Jacobite view point Wink
The only other problem the Jacobites had was that Drummosie Moor is very flat which again does not help the Highland charge

PS I made a mistake while typing as the other Uprising was in 1719
 
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And of course the jacobite left (I think) had to run through the marsh and boggy gound making the charge less effective.
Do you know when the government forces started training with the new technique. I take it they had to learn it fairly quickly.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by warney600:
Yes it did work unfortunaly, if you are looking at it from a Jacobite view point Wink
The only other problem the Jacobites had was that Drummosie Moor is very flat which again does not help the Highland charge


To use to running downhill eh… Big Grin

Si… Smile


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quote:
Originally posted by Holdtheline:
And of course the jacobite left (I think) had to run through the marsh and boggy gound making the charge less effective.
Do you know when the government forces started training with the new technique. I take it they had to learn it fairly quickly.


They worked it out after the battle of Falkirk, which was third third battle the Hanoverians had lost
As for Simonj will speak to you tomorrow
 
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Originally posted by …:
As for Simonj will speak to you tomorrow


Sure Pal… Roll Eyes

Later

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Not sure if it is permitted to mention a BBC documentary on a channel 4 site but Culluden was covered in the BBC series Battlefield Britain see link below.

I have been to the site, it is very bleak and windswept.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/scotland_jacobites_01.shtml
 
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Originally posted by Sunnyblink:
Not sure if it is permitted to mention a BBC documentary on a channel 4 site but Culluden was covered in the BBC series Battlefield Britain see link below.

I have been to the site, it is very bleak and windswept.

Totally agree about Culloden, but for Jacobites today it does hold a special hold because of what happended
Read the first part of the Website and was really pleased to see it being called an Uprising but then back to the same old dirge of calling it a rebellion, How a King could be called a Rebel to gain his Country back is behond me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/scotland_jacobites_01.shtml
 
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Warney

Why are you a Jacobite? You couldn't say that Charles I or James II were rip-roaring success stories. Charles of course tried to impose the prayer book on the Scots, which was a complete fiasco; it led to his defeat in the Bishops' War - and precipated the Civil War in which many thousands of Scots died
 
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Originally posted by cottar:
Warney

Why are you a Jacobite? You couldn't say that Charles I or James II were rip-roaring success stories. Charles of course tried to impose the prayer book on the Scots, which was a complete fiasco; it led to his defeat in the Bishops' War - and precipated the Civil War in which many thousands of Scots died


Cottar
I am a Jacobite because I feel the same way as the Scots did then, I would have supported the Uprisings as Scots died for who rightfully was the King Of Scots and who cared for the people rather than someone from Holland or Hanover who both cared not a jot for Scotland
I do agree though that a lot of the Stewarts where not great Kings
Also knowing Prince Michael and speaking to him about his love of this Country then I would rather have him as King of Scots rather than Elizabeth but that is not for Michael or myself to chose but the people of Scotland
As A Jacobite I also get involved in independance for Scotland and work with Republicans to achieve the same goal then have a referedum on wether we are a Republic or have a King at the head of this great Country

Hope that makes sense
 
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quote:
Originally posted by warney600:
quote:
Originally posted by cottar:
Warney

Why are you a Jacobite? You couldn't say that Charles I or James II were rip-roaring success stories. Charles of course tried to impose the prayer book on the Scots, which was a complete fiasco; it led to his defeat in the Bishops' War - and precipated the Civil War in which many thousands of Scots died


Cottar
I am a Jacobite because I feel the same way as the Scots did then, I would have supported the Uprisings as Scots died for who rightfully was the King Of Scots and who cared for the people rather than someone from Holland or Hanover who both cared not a jot for Scotland
I do agree though that a lot of the Stewarts where not great Kings
Also knowing Prince Michael and speaking to him about his love of this Country then I would rather have him as King of Scots rather than Elizabeth but that is not for Michael or myself to chose but the people of Scotland
As A Jacobite I also get involved in independance for Scotland and work with Republicans to achieve the same goal then have a referedum on wether we are a Republic or have a King at the head of this great Country

Hope that makes sense


Prince Michael as king? I thought the current Stuart heir was the Duke of Bavaria

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/stuart_14.html
 
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Michael's claim is on his web site which you can get on the safe conduct letter post and you will see that his claim is closer to the one that you have posted although in fairness what you have posted is not incorrect just that Michael has a closer link
Hope that clears that up
 
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As A Jacobite I also get involved in independance for Scotland and work with Republicans to achieve the same goal then have a referedum on wether we are a Republic or have a King at the head of this great Country


Warney600, Oh no! I can and do respect your views and culture and past, as I hope I have shown in some of my previous comments. But please tell me you are not serious about the chimera of Scottish independence? Scotland could never survive and prosper as an independent nation - OK it would survive, but aren't you much better off as you are with a devolved power (something we in the north of England are denied) and as a key and integral part of the United Kingdom. The whole UK would be devalued by an independent Scotland. And I hope you are not one of those who quotes Scottish oil as a rationale for independence. The oil may be located geographically in Scottish waters (well some of it) but it was extracted with British investment, and taxes paid by UK citizens. It is a British, not Scottish resource. I don't necessarily expect yo to agree (indeed I'd be disappointed if you did!) but I have so much enjoyed our various dialogues from different but credible perspectives that I hope the bandwagon of putative Scottish independence does not undermine that!

I mean no offence to you or any other Celtic brethren out there; England will survive with or without Scotland or Wales, but I doubt the reverse is true. Be proud of what you are - a nation with a proud and heroic history, whose monarchs became kings of a United Britain, something the "native" English kings could never achieve.

Enjoyed the photos on the link by the way. What tartan were you wearing (another later romantic Jacobite invention though!!?)
 
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If the Scots want out of Britain then I can perfectly understand why this should be so. The City of London sucks the life out of Scotland, Wales and the English regions as well. The difficulty here of course is that so many Scots have top slots in the Corporation. 55/60% of the GDP of these areas comprises state spending, not exactly sustainable - or fitting to a great nation when you come down to it. The Irish have of course done very well.

However I do not go along with warney when he says this:

"I am a Jacobite because I feel the same way as the Scots did then, I would have supported the Uprisings as Scots died for who rightfully was the King Of Scots and who cared for the people rather than someone from Holland or Hanover who both cared not a jot for Scotland"

As far as I can see the Stuarts - once they had got their feet under the table in England - cared not a jot for Scotland. That surely applies to the "Old Pretender" and I am pretty sure to the "Young Pretender" as well.

It was logical to import the Hanoverians as the Stuarts had proved so very unsatisfactory. And I think it might have been beneficial, for England certainly, had this expedient been tried earlier than it was.

I did see as well that Cumberland received a fulsome address congratulating him wholeheartedly on his victory from the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

Surely the best thing is to go for a Republic, warney?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by cottar:
If the Scots want out of Britain then I can perfectly understand why this should be so. The City of London sucks the life out of Scotland, Wales and the English regions as well. The difficulty here of course is that so many Scots have top slots in the Corporation. 55/60% of the GDP of these areas comprises state spending, not exactly sustainable - or fitting to a great nation when you come down to it. The Irish have of course done very well.

However I do not go along with warney when he says this:

"I am a Jacobite because I feel the same way as the Scots did then, I would have supported the Uprisings as Scots died for who rightfully was the King Of Scots and who cared for the people rather than someone from Holland or Hanover who both cared not a jot for Scotland"

As far as I can see the Stuarts - once they had got their feet under the table in England - cared not a jot for Scotland. That surely applies to the "Old Pretender" and I am pretty sure to the "Young Pretender" as well.

It was logical to import the Hanoverians as the Stuarts had proved so very unsatisfactory. And I think it might have been beneficial, for England certainly, had this expedient been tried earlier than it was.

I did see as well that Cumberland received a fulsome address congratulating him wholeheartedly on his victory from the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

Surely the best thing is to go for a Republic, warney?


It would not be surprising if the Church of Scotland Assembly were happy at Cumberland's victory, they had no love of the Stuarts. The last few years of Stuart rule in Scotland were known as the 'Killing Times' due to the number of Covanenters (radical Church of Scotland supporters) killed by the Stuarts.
 
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