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Two Silver Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Amphlett:
quote:
You originally stated that Dresden was an undefended city, now you are implying that it was 'Poorly' defended, a single night fighter plus a few anti aircraft guns still constitues a defence


Sunnyblink,

If you doubt Dresden is seen by many as an undefended city, just read more widely. You may disagree, but it is a view.

Try Patrick Buchanan 'Where Right Went Wrong'. If you don't want to read a book, try a news paper article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&r...3BA35750C0A967948260

If you want a personal account, the BBC have one about a british POW at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/77/a4415177.shtml

They all claim Dresden was undefended. If you claim it was defended, please tell us how many AA guns in your opinion constitutes a defence.

quote:
and as I said in a previuos post there was a dog fight on the next day other Dresden so it was defended then.


What sources state this? How many fighters were involved. Please, let us know so we can read more about it.


The dogfight is refered to in Fredrick Taylor's book on Dresden. It is mentioned on the web on the Dresden wiki entry but you will have to get the book for the details.

I have heard that Pat Buchannon has some 'interesting' views on the Holocaust so I won't take his view as gospel.

Legally one anti- aircraft gun makes a city defended, you yourself state that at least one night fighter was scrambled. There is a difference between a city being badly/poorly defended and it being undefended. Your yourself state that 6 RAF planes were lost in the raid, if it was undefended none would be have been lost.

Besides which the manufacture of military materials plus it being a communications centre made it a legitimate target.

There were no big white flags flying over Dresden when the allies attacked.
 
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Two Gold Stars
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"You used the word myopia earlier. Are you sure this is not a myopic view too?"

How do you think wars between fully mobilised societies are won?

"Maybe Harris was doing churchill's bidding?"

The decision to press on was Harris's.

"My alternative? Dowding had been arguing for more fighters from an early date."

short range fighters - Churchill said in 1940 that the first need was for fighters, but only bombers can strike back at the enemy

"All I have said is I don't think it would have beyond the ability of the military had they kept an open mind."

you did offer alternatives

1) low level attack

2) bombing at great height as per Tirpitz

3) bombing "undefended" targets - having picked up this idea from the link I posted without appreciating that it referred only to flak, and took no account of fighters

All of these were wholly impractical.

"Do you mean not a bad objective? The initial strategy to rely purely on the navy was disasterous."

that's true - but if the Dardenelles could have been forced through good army/navy co-operation it would have been a considerable victory

"If on the other hand Japanese aggression drew in America, I would be content to have it. On this I rested"

Well as we couldn't get anywhere without the US I'd say that was excellent judgement - where does it relate directly to the sinking of the 2 ships?

"Clearly until you have a fleet you can't do much except act on the defensive and it is quite clear that to stick your head out where the enemy is, with a very inferior force would be foolish"

Then Phillips should have exercised his command authority appropriately. He was doubtless referring to venturing into the south China sea rather than defending Malaya directly. As I said the Japanese capability with air launched torpedos, in the open sea was not appreciated.

"Not at all."

others here may care to comment
 
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Two Gold Stars
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quote:
How many flak divisions for home defence were there in Germany in 1942? I ask because I don't know but it seems to me that the entire question of manpower and resources throughout the whole war is something that can only sensibly be discussed with many facts. Otherwise everything is just an exchange of ignorances.


I thought it was reasonable to rely on what Neillands and Richards had to say there. Obviously there is no breakdown of the manpower figues to hand. But it is surely a delusion to choose not to accept that 8876 88mm guns, 24000 or so light flak, thousands of searchlights and a complex command and control set up would not require hundreds of thousands of men who could otherwise have been engaged elsewhere. Similarly the vast destruction from the area raids could not have been cleared and repaired merely with old men, boys and women.

Neillands also provided figures as follows;

"By 1944 the bombing offensive was costing Germany 30% of all artillery production, 20% of heavy shells, 33% of the output of the optical industry for sights and aiming devices and 50% of the country's electro-technical output which had to be diverted to the anti-aircraft role."

So to say that this was not a substantial diversion away from the front lines is less than realistic.
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
Then what do you claim should have been the accuracy?



decrypted,

Smaller areas more confined to the target and definitely not areas of housing where there was no industry at all.

Also, see my post to sunnyblick below
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
Where do you get the idea that the term 'the allies' only applies to the 'anglo saxon' powers



Sunnyblink,

Probably from german history who appear to use the term for the western allies. Russians are invariably referred to as Russians.
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
Legally one anti- aircraft gun makes a city defended



Sunnyblink,

No, that's not true. Jus in Bello calls proportionality.
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
How do you think wars between fully mobilised societies are won?


Are you claiming myopia is a virtue here? I understood earlier you claimed it was the opposite.

quote:
having picked up this idea from the link I posted without appreciating that it referred only to flak/quote]

Cottar,

You have a great propensity for getting things wrong.

I didn't have to pick it up from the link. You wrote it. And it is by no means an exclusive situation. Fighters or flak, any useful target which was not heavily defended would be obvious.

Why do you think the u-boot construction yards not bombed more heavily and in a more sustained fashion? The Strategic Bombing Survey doesn't even mention defences, simply that the bombing was too light. Why was the german electrical power system not attacked at all?

[quote]... where does it relate directly to the sinking of the 2 ships?


The fleet was something like 70% under strength and, after the carrier had to dock for repairs was highly vulnerable. Despite this, it was ordered to continue. I see this as an example of Churchill being profligate with those mens' lives.

quote:
Then Phillips should have exercised his command authority appropriately. He was doubtless referring to venturing into the south China sea rather than defending Malaya directly.


Doubtless? How do you know this with such a degree of certainty?
 
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Two Gold Stars
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quote:
Smaller areas more confined to the target and definitely not areas of housing where there was no industry at all.


harry

What makes you think this was technically possible when the area bombing directive of 14th Feb 1942 was promulgated?

I told you about the Butt Report of the previous summer/autumn

". Of 100 bombers setting out on an operation, many never found the target.
2. Of those attacking the target, on average only one-third placed their bombs within 5 miles of the target.
3. In hazy or inclement weather, the number of bombers finding the target was only one in ten.
4. On moonless nights, only one bomber in 15 found the target.[2]"

How can you possibly bomb industrial areas with any effect when only one in 3 crews got within 5 miles of the target? And this was to continue....

eg Pathfinder led operation Sept 1 1942 target Saarbrucken, Saarlauten 13 miles away was struck.

The practicalities did not allow industrial areas to be targetted.
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
By 1944 the bombing offensive was costing Germany 30% of all artillery production, 20% of heavy shells, 33% of the output of the optical industry for sights and aiming devices and 50% of the country's electro-technical output which had to be diverted to the anti-aircraft role.


Cottar,

Figures such as the above are of no value unless explained in context.

What is the monthly/quarterly/annual output?

What is the monthly/quarterly/annual requirement?

What are the dispersed stocks?

What are the shifting priorities for production anyway?

For example, how worried are the germans at a reduction in optical equipment for aiming devices? What have they left in the way of bombers? Tank production rose from 1,616 in August 1944 to 1,854 tanks in Dec 1944.

I think it is pointless for you or I to discuss these issues as neither of us are qualified, have enough experience or have enough data to have any sort of meaningful discussion on management of a wartime economy.
 
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Two Gold Stars
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quote:
Are you claiming myopia is a virtue here? I understood earlier you claimed it was the opposite.


I merely observed that attrition is inevitable in great wars such as these. You seem to set considerable store by Montgomery - what do you think that the second battle of Alamein and the battle of Normandy were if not attritional battles?

"I didn't have to pick it up from the link. You wrote it."

What exactly did I write then?

"Why do you think the u-boot construction yards not bombed more heavily and in a more sustained fashion?"

Because of stuff like this - Pathfinder led raid 27/28 Aug 1942 tried to bomb u-boat construction site at Flensburg, bombs dropped on inlet in Denmark instead - varying wind speeds being contributory factor.

"Despite this, it was ordered to continue. I see this as an example of Churchill being profligate with those mens' lives."

If I remember rightly the First Sea Lord advised against sending the ships - so sure, it was not the best of judgement as it turned out. But Churchill did not plan to get the ships sunk - so the charge of profligacy seems unfair. Grotesque really when you compare Churchill to Hitler or Stalin in terms of military profligacy. Phillips was in any case the man on the spot - it was his decision to go against the Japanese landings in Malaya. I see that you have ignored the point about Churchill's fears that the second front turning into a bloodbath
 
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Two Silver Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Amphlett:
quote:
Legally one anti- aircraft gun makes a city defended



Sunnyblink,

No, that's not true. Jus in Bello calls proportionality.


Of course having defencses makes are city defended, amount and capability of those defences is irrelevant. The Germans were manufacturing military goods in Dresden and routing troops through there which makes it a legitimate target anyway.

For info from the bombing survey I have already quoted -

'Dresden was protected by antiaircraft defenses , antiaircraft guns and searchlights, in anticipation of Allied air raids against the city.11 The Dresden air defenses were under the Combined Dresden (Corps Area IV) and Berlin (Corps Area III) Luftwaffe Administration Commands.12'
 
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Two Silver Stars
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quote:
Jus in Bello calls proportionality.


I don't think it does call for proportionality. There is no law saying that if X units of the enemy has been eliminated then you should expect no more than X of your own being destroyed. Part of the "just practices" of war include that wars should be brought to an end as quickly as possible. Allowing an enemy war machine to prolong the conflict by producing the material in larger quantities is going against that.
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
I don't think it does call for proportionality. There is no law saying that if X units of the enemy has been eliminated then you should expect no more than X of your own being destroyed.



decrypted,

That is correct for military targets but I raised Jus in Bello as Sunnyblink stated:

"Legally one anti- aircraft gun makes a city defended"

There is no law which states that. 'Defended' has never been legally defined. My response to Sunnyblink's statement deals with the current legal position as he used the present tense. The law on these matters has evolved to the law that we currently have.

This particular aspect of the law concerned with the protection of civilians is covered by Protocol I, additional to the 1949 4th Geneva Convention, the Principles of Jus in Bello and the 1999 Rome Statue of the United Nations.

International law, like most law, is complex and evolves through case law. Nonetheless, as with most law, fundamental principles are laid down. Both Jus in Bello and Jus ad Bellam, the conduct in war and the justification for war define these principles.

The principles of Jus in Bello start with the rules of just conduct which fall under the two broad principles of discrimination and proportionality. The principle of discrimination concerns who are legitimate targets in war, whilst the principle of proportionality concerns how much force is morally appropriate.

Hence my statement that Jus in Bello calls for proportionality.

Jus in Bello is not law in its own right. It is a set of principles from which law is derived and is the basis for International Humanitarian Law.

International law is, in practice, only a convention which is enforced by those who agree to be bound by its courts. In this sense, it is not an international law at all. The United States for example has indicated that it does not recognise the authority of the International Criminal Court.

Britian does recognise the International Court and is bound by its statute.

Article 8 of the statute is concerned with war crimes. Included in the definition of war crimes are:

(i) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;

(ii) Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;

(iv) Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

(v) Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;

Case law invariably involves definitions of terms such as 'intentionally', 'military objectives' and 'undefended' etc.

This is where the principles of Jus in Bello guide the court.

As I have already stated, this is the current position and not the position during WW2. At that time, the laws used at Nuremburg used the 1907 Hague convention when the law was even less defined. Article 25 of the 1907 Hague Convention states:

"Article 25. The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended is prohibited."

'Undefended' was not defined and no case law existed from which a precedent could be taken. Section 2(v) of Article 8 of Rome statute however, which says more or less the same thing is governed by the proportionality laid down in Jus in Bello.

There is no precedent in case law, nor interpretation for guidance that I am aware of which states:

"Legally one anti- aircraft gun makes a city defended"
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
Of course having defencses makes are city defended, amount and capability of those defences is irrelevant.



Sunnyblink,

See my reply to decrypted on this matter.
 
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Two Gold Stars
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'Undefended' was not defined and no case law existed from which a precedent could be taken. Section 2(v) of Article 8 of Rome statute however, which says more or less the same thing is governed by the proportionality laid down in Jus in Bello.

There is no precedent in case law, nor interpretation for guidance that I am aware of which states:

"Legally one anti- aircraft gun makes a city defended"

This is ludicrous - for a start the Luftwaffe was still active, the whole of Germany was defended - admittedly to less and less effect - by fighters, not just guns. The view has always been that the majority of RAF bombers were destroyed by night fighters.

In early January 1945 31 bombers were shot down during a raid on Hanover. The fact that the Luftwaffe may oy may not have intercepted over Dreseden is irrelevant for the purpose. Sometimes during the offensive spoof tactics would work well and the bombers would attack a city without being intercepted before or during the attack, this was particularly so for the first wave.

What % casualties does one have to take before a raid would be deemed legally legitimate?
 
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Two Gold Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Amphlett:
quote:
By 1944 the bombing offensive was costing Germany 30% of all artillery production, 20% of heavy shells, 33% of the output of the optical industry for sights and aiming devices and 50% of the country's electro-technical output which had to be diverted to the anti-aircraft role.


Cottar,

Figures such as the above are of no value unless explained in context.

What is the monthly/quarterly/annual output?

What is the monthly/quarterly/annual requirement?

What are the dispersed stocks?

What are the shifting priorities for production anyway?

For example, how worried are the germans at a reduction in optical equipment for aiming devices? What have they left in the way of bombers? Tank production rose from 1,616 in August 1944 to 1,854 tanks in Dec 1944.

I think it is pointless for you or I to discuss these issues as neither of us are qualified, have enough experience or have enough data to have any sort of meaningful discussion on management of a wartime economy.


One of my posts was moderated for some trigger word - no idea what it was, however

Even small detachments of the weapons employed on homeland defence could have a devastating effect on the battlefield as the link showed

http://flickr.com/photos/barryslemmings/129143176/

This was especially so with the weak British tanks circa 1944 - for instance during Goodwood just 4 Luftwaffe 88's knocked out 16 Sherman tanks of the 11th Armoured division. Interestingly the commander of the detachment was forced to do so by Colonel Hans von Luck of 21st Panzer - he thought his role was exclusively AA, perhaps he was awaiting legal opinion. Colonel von Luck told him that he would shoot him if he did not engage the British tanks forthwith - he gave him a straight choice of being shot with the colonel's pistol, or getting a high decoration for knocking out the easily penetrated Sherman tanks, which would also catch fire easily when hit. The choice was obvious.
 
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One Gold Star
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quote:
What makes you think this was technically possible when the area bombing directive of 14th Feb 1942 was promulgated?



Cottar,

Because it was possible and there were successes. You present only one side of the story and you concentrate only on the failures.

Bellincourt Renault Factory, March 1942; 235 aircraft intensively bombed the factory area achieving 'excellent results' for the loss of only 1 Wellington.

quote:
The practicalities did not allow industrial areas to be targetted.


Clearly they could but, in the case of the bombing of the U-Boot pens in france during the construction phase, the bombing was too light and too infrequent. It became possible to build the pens strong enough to withstand the bombing.

The u-boot construction yards in France however were not so well protected but, as the Strategic Bombing Survey states, again the bombing was too light and too infrequent to be anything more than troublesome.
 
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One Gold Star
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Grotesque really when you compare Churchill to Hitler or Stalin in terms of military profligacy.



To suggest I have made such a comparison is a fraud. Only you have made this comparison which is quite wrong in nature. I see no value in continuing any discussion which you charge with such emotional content of an immature nature.
 
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Two Gold Stars
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Bellincourt Renault Factory, March 1942; 235 aircraft intensively bombed the factory area achieving 'excellent results' for the loss of only 1 Wellington.


And this outweighs the Butt report?

The factory was a close target, short flying time - hardly defended by flak, as a result it was light up by flares and critically the aircraft could bomb at low level. This has no relevance for German targets, harry.

"Clearly they could but, in the case of the bombing of the U-Boot pens in france during the construction phase, the bombing was too light and too infrequent"

before I answer this you are talking 1940/1 presumably?
 
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Two Gold Stars
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quote:
To suggest I have made such a comparison is a fraud. Only you have made this comparison which is quite wrong in nature. I see no value in continuing any discussion which you charge with such emotional content of an immature nature.


Ok - it was a bit OTT, I meant "you" in a general sense, not you as such
 
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