quote:

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JMS never lost faith in having S5. He never believed that he wouldn't get to make it. Deconstruction Of Falling Stars would always have been there, probably as an ending for S4, or as an opener for S5.

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Is it one of those false stories that does the rounds then? A quick google found me three sites that say the ep was made at that point because JMS wasn't sure of getting a fifth season.

1
2
3

Nobody seems entirely sure of that one! However Sleeping In Light, the S5 finale, was shot during S4 in case there was no S5. Deconstruction Of Falling Stars would seem to have been a cert anyway.

"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS

I just wrote a lengthy response to those Qs BRG, however the window closed on me leaving me incredibly frustrated

Anyway, I see the others have had a bash so I'll be brief and just add what I can.

DECONSTRUCTION

Was shot as episode 5x01 after SLEEPING IN LIGHT was shot as 4x22. At the time filming was due to begin it was still unclear as to whether or not TNT would greenlight Season 5. How many networks would pick up a show 4/5 of the way towards it's end ?? After TNT did give the go ahead, WBs and TNT agreed to let Joe switch the running order of the two episodes. Joe was told of the unliklihood of a fifth season quite early on in the fourth season. The network on which B5 aired PTEN was closing down at the end of the season, it was only due to Doug Netter's efforts in brokering the deal with TNT that saw the fifth season come to fruition.

KEFFER

Was NOT in the original plan. Before handing over complete creative control of the show to Joe, WBs' final directive was that they wanted a fighter jock introduced. Keffer was that Jock. As soon as the creative leash came off, Keffer bought it.

MARCUS

Would have been in the original plan. The Rangers would always have been a large and important part of the show. The Rangers needed a focal point and to that end Marcus provided it. As to his demise, in the original plan Marcus would have appeared in Season 5. Joe I don't think has ever confirmed that Marcus was there in S5 in his grand plan, however we can draw such a conclusion from a few logical facts. Season 4 was originally due to end with Sheridan's capture on Mars. At this point Ivanova would not have been critically injured, as such there would have been no need for Marcus' sacrifice at that point in the series. The Earth war would have ended towards the middle of the fifth season, as such Marcus would more than likely have gone at that point. like Kosh before him, Marcus' character had the flexibility of not necessarily needing to be there at the end, as such meaning he could be written out to serve a dramatic purpose.

CLAUDIA CHRISTIAN

Money grabber. The others have covered this one. Suffice to say, for season 5 simply take out Lockley and insert Ivanova and that would pretty much have been it

You'll notice that CC turns up again in SLEEPING IN LIGHT, this was simply due to the fact that the episode was filmed as the final episode of Season 4, a time at which CC was still under contract to the show. Likewise, Tracey Scoggins was not and as such does not appear in the episode. There was also something about them not having image rights to Jason Alexander either at that point, hence his lack of photo in SiL's closing credits.

<Phew!>

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. But I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the skies from me...

Isn't Marcus sort of "The anti-keffer"? Popular, funny, doesn't think he's Tom cruise (Take my breath awaaaaaaaayyy)

I suppose the good thing about Season 5 is most of the cast and a lot of the writing has such a good vibe! (I can just see JMS behind the pages going "IN YOUR FACE REVIEWER WHO SAID WE'D NEVER GET PAST SEASON ONE! I'M GONNA FINISH MY ARC!! UP YOURS PARAMOUNT!!!"- he'd never say it outloud- but you just knew it. It exlains why DECON is a little odd- JMS knew he'd have a season 5 so he decided to do a little experiment.

How would Marcus react to Lockley? (Would she have him arrested ever? hmm, the mind boggles.

"Faith Manages."

Rangers- never- bluff.

quote:

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How would Marcus react to Lockley? (Would she have him arrested ever? hmm, the mind boggles.

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Marcus showed respect for Sheridan, although admittedly Sheridan was involved with the Rangers. No reason to suppose he'd have been less than respectful towards Lochley. He had that whole Minbari thing going, remember. He'd very likely have driven her nuts, of course though. After all, he did that so well with everybody else! Why would she ever have him arrested though?! And would Marcus have stayed on Babylon 5 once Sheridan was President? I'd have thought (assuming he survived!) that he'd have gone off looking for more dark places to walk in. Or would he have tried to stow away on Ivanova's battlecruiser?!

"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS

assuming Ivanova was alive- but Marcus living without her was sort of the point of the last few eps of season 4.

I have this mental vision of Marcus being overtly cheeky and breaking rules, the usual. With Ivanova he got away with it- with Lockley (Maybe one of the people he totalled in the bar fight in "Ceremonies..." wants him arrested) Just a thought.

BUT if Marcus had survived, wouldn't he be in trouble with the rangers for running out on a battle? (They handle this topic in legend of the rangers) Ultimatly, he cared more about Ivanova than his duty to the rangers. Makes you wonder...

Rangers- never- bluff.

I think they'd have looked more favourably on Marcus' actions in Endgame than they did Martel's in LOTR

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. But I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the skies from me...

Wasn't really a Rangers' battle, was it. Sheridan had chosen to use them, but it could be argued that it wasn't really a Rangers' cause. Marcus had already made clear that he had no allegiance to Earth, and didn't consider it to have any relevance to him. If he had survived, he'd probably have been in trouble of some kind I suppose - for what was in effect a suicide attempt, as well as for leaving the battle; but given that it was Delenn and Sheridan who ran the Rangers, and that they would both have understood at least to a degree, I doubt there would have been much of a problem. Marcus is the only Ranger we've ever seen in the show in great detail, so we don't know if he's typical of the organisation, or very much an individual. If he's typical, though, then the hierarchy must be pretty flexible!

Or you could ask another question; how different would it all have turned out if Sinclair hadn't turned out to be Valen, and hadn't gone into the past? Marcus's attitude to Delenn, and even more so to Sheridan, was very different to the puppy-like devotion to Sinclair that we saw in War Without End! Would he have left the battle if Sinclair had still been in command? You can go on asking such questions forever. Which is part of the fun I suppose.



"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS

Bloody hell- now we're getting pedantic with questions. Alright then, so what if (God forbid) Marcus had been killed at Arisia and William (His brother) had been on B5 instead. (Now thats just plain silly!)

AND LEAVE THE PUPPY LIKE DEVOTION ALONE!
(I wouldn't say he's not REALLY devoted to Delenn- after all- he got beaten to a bloody pulp and almost prematurly reborn for her!)

Rangers- never- bluff.

I wonder what William was like? He's just annoying in City Of Sorrows, but then that book didn't quite ring true for me a lot of the time anyway. Didn't mean to be pedantic, Crazy. Such things just amuse me, is all.

And I'm not knocking the puppy-like devotion! I think it's oddly sweet. He certainly thinks highly of Delenn, no doubting that, but the loyalty isn't the same there. Maybe your first Entil'Zha is like your first Doctor Who?! Nobody else is ever quite as good!

You know, at this rate this thread is going to have to be renamed the Marcus thread, rather than the B5 S4 thread! I'm sure there are other things to talk about...

"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS

No!! There's no better topic of converstaion than Marcus!! (Sorry- I'm going to get a "Marcus Lives," T-shirt or "Remember Marcus.")

Alright then! You wanna talk about something else- pick a topic- Fasten or zip?

Rangers- never- bluff.

I'm just curious as to how you're going to get on with the B5 Season 5 thread

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. But I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the skies from me...

Hey, there's still Marcus to talk about. There's always the "What would this episode have been like with Marcus in it?" option!

Crazy, you used to actually be able to get "Marcus Lives!" T-shirts. Also fans were forever producing "Bring Back Marcus!" and "Bring Back The Ranger!" stickers. A friend of mine went to a convention in the States and came back with a "Bring Back Marcus Now Dammit!" T-shirt, but I think it's fair to say that that one was never commercially available!

And zip, then fasten. But that one really never was a very long conversation, was it.

"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS

Angel, Crazy, Artemis, Mickey & Bugblatter, thanks for answering BRG's many questions, and for putting up with my dramatic predictions!

So, a piece of advice for a B5 novice if you will. Regarding Babylon 5 books, where do I start?
I checked Amazon, and there appeares to be a few dozen titles, but some of them get a terrible 'user review', while others get "must read" remarks.
Are these books part of official series continuity, or ar they like Star Trek books, which bear no relevance to the series, but can stll be very entertaining?

If you could point me in the right direction, and also, am I better leaving the books until after I have watched season 5?
BRG

Ah, the books question. You're not the first with that one BRG

The novels come in two fold, firstly you have the canonical JMS sanctioned novels, and then you have the "other" novels, which whilst still sanctioned, JMS didn't provide any pivotal background material for them.

Your best bet is to start off with TO DREAM IN THE CITY OF SORROWS, this pretty much covers Sinclair's time after CHRYSALIS through to him going back in time. It's a superb novel giving a lot more background of not only Sinclair but also the Rangers and Marcus. After that, or before you can read THE SHADOW WITHIN. This one covers Anna Sheridan's fateful trip to Z'ha'dum and covers the story of what REALLY happened. Again, great background material for both Anna and Mr Morden as well as linking the whole IPX story to the main thread.

After that, there are three trilogies to make your way through. There's the Centauri Prime trilogy which, without giving away spoilers concludes the Centauri arc. There's also the Telepath trilogy which covers the Teep war and concludes that, and finally there's the technomage trilogy which both explores their story after the events of Season 2's GEOMETRY OF SHADOWS and sets certain things up and expands upon certain events in B5's sequal series CRUSADE.

If I may recommend;

You can read the first two novels now.

Leave the rest until after you've seen Season 5.

The rest of the novels, provide no arc detail, and the quality of them ranges from the acceptable to poor. You could easily get away with not reading them

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. But I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the skies from me...

although with to dream in the city of sorrows, you could start with the comic that comes before it if you're as pedantic as this ranger.

As for BRG's ideas on what could happen in the series and his constant questioning- it's been fun! It's great fun to take someone else through the show and tip them off on what to look for- I did this with Artemis - although I warned her not to get too attached to Marcus- she didn't listen (no I can't go more than 2 seconds without saying the M word!). I was amazing when you came up with "Maybe they'll get out Dr franklins healing device" = I didn't get that at the time! (But artemis came back to me 1/2 way through war without end and asked- "Is Sinclair Valen?"- I was astounded she got it!)


Oh speaking of BAD novels- "Betrayals" - i got it for 99p- I see why now! From the bits i've glanced at, the author knows nothing about Russian family names and that Ivanova is the feminine version! The masculine is Ivanov! CRETIN! Not only is her brothers first name wrong, he's been given the feminine version of his second name! I mean the poor sods quite dead- they could at least get his name right! ( Sorry for ranting- but the scene with Ganya and Ivanova in "In the beginning" really gets me- Me and my older brother watched it together and we wound up hugging each other- probably because we're about the same age gap and age as well... it just struck a few too many notes for the both of us)

anyway- enough about ranger and her odd family- (And the sister to who if ranger has to explain how sinclair is valen- one more time i'll get the 2x4 out!)

must dash- to tired to think---

*I should have stayed in the coma.*

Rangers- never- bluff.

It's a fair call there. I didn't get the Healing Device thing either, not until a good way into ENDGAME anyway. On the Valen front my other half got that pretty quickly as well, which made me feel all the more stupid as I didn't get it until a good way through WAR WITHOUT END.

The scene from ITB with Ivanova and Ganya cracks me up everytime I see it. Ganya leaves the room and literally 2 seconds later Susan's looking out the window watching his ship fly past. What ?? Did he beam aboard Star Trek style ??

It's been entertaining BRG, and it's not quite over yet. And, you've still got Crusade to come yet Although not even we know all the answers there I'm afraid

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. But I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the skies from me...

Hmm. The books. Everybody else seems quite happy with To Dream In The City Of Sorrows, but to be honest I was disappointed. Avoiding spoilers here I think, it misses too much out, and despite JMS's insistence that it's pretty much canon, it contradicts what he put in the series. And I like to be pedantic about such things. Hell, it gives me something to do! Marcus claimed in S3 that he spent nearly a year on Minbar. The book has him there just a few months. Ranger training is three months long?! They teach all that - all the terror and the joy and the language fluency and the fighting and all the rest of it - in only three months?! We don't see any of Sinclair's change from the man of S1 to the gentle 'Minbari' leader of WWE. Similiarly Marcus ends the book acting more like Sinclair's buddy. Whither the puppy-like devotion?! They have Marcus complaining about being taught Minbari religion, but in S3 he's clearly following it. He even has a Minbari shrine in his bedroom. In Grey 17 a Minbari shrine is practically the only thing he does have in his bedroom! Plus what was all that twaddle about Satai?

However, it's a lot better than most of the others! TV tie-in books are always rubbish. Sad fact of life. The Buffy and Angel ones are awful, and don't even get me started on the Poltergeist - The Legacy ones. The Russian patronymics mistake is nothing compared to those ones. Sigh.

Plus JMS said originally that Entil'Zha Veni is a traditional salute given by Rangers, especially when receiving an order. In the book it's made out to be some sacred oath. No way! It was brought to the Minbari by Valen (and the Vorlons who escorted him, since it's a Vorlon phrase). Now no way would Sinclair have had a sacred oath associated with himself. Doesn't ring true. See? Told you I liked being pedantic.

"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS

Oh pick pick pick!

Whatabout the bit where Marcus and sinclair are talking about Valens deification (Don't ask me to spell- "I have to do spellcheck on simple sentances- and you're gonna ask me what apotheosis means?")) and Marcus starts talking about Elvis- strange person that he is... -- Oh come on! That bit was funny!

Was William that annoying? I didn't notice- I just worked out it was him from the description before he even introduced himself ("That's gotta be william")

Marcus was a little depressive in it- but I suppose that its supposed to be a contrast-

As for three months to learn terror, joy delight blah blah... pick pick pick! Why don't you go and pick at the fact that all the zathrases being brothers (no sisters) is very unlikely by the laws of probability-
"Congratulations Mr Zathras- it's another boy."
"Oh- Zathras can never have anything nice!"

As for the minbari shrine- maybe he's been brainwashed. maybe we've all been brainwashed by jms.... maybe we've been brainwashed too.

"put your face into the book,"

Rangers- never- bluff.

quote:

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Why don't you go and pick at the fact that all the zathrases being brothers (no sisters) is very unlikely by the laws of probability-

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Because I don't want to! That's possible anyway. Plus we don't know there aren't any sisters. Zathras has many brothers because JMS liked him so much -

"I'm often tempted to create Zathras' brother, Mathras, or somesuch, if only for the look of terror in their eyes when he says, of Zathras, 'Ah, yes...Zathras...was the quiet one in the family....'
Who knows, it might be something I might do someday...." - JMS

So that's why there's so many brothers! Screw the probability!

Sigh. Some people just don't appreciate my nitpicking...



"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS

Well it's not like in B5 anyone has a cat that changes sex or is french with an english accent and drinks earl grey. (C'mon- they at least cover for Ivanovas accent and she does drink vodka hell of a lot!- better no accent than never living down "Nuclear Wessels!")

"Ah yes- this Zathras sister- zathrina"
Oh god no!

Oh- heres a giant nitpick- WHY in matters of honour does Marcus have to come and get sheridan to captain the white star? ("We have the means if you have the will") WHY?? It makes very little sence!(Apart from plot convieniance to introduce Marcus) Is Marcus incapable of taking out a ship without Sinclair there to tell him what to do!! But (To reuse an analogy) If you're used to having John Pertwee around, one supposes you go get Tom Baker

Wait a mo-- if we are running with my Doctor Who brain- then sheridan's the wet vet! NO NOT THE CRICKET WHITES!!!

Rangers- never- bluff.

Okay. Ignoring the slights to my two favourite Doctors... and to Sheridan, who was my favourite character until Marcus turns up, and remains a close second...

Marcus went to get Sheridan to get Sheridan involved. Yes, Marcus could have captained the White Star - but would he have thought of the manoeuvring that Sheridan used to get them out of trouble? Would he have shown such skill in commanding a vessel in those circumstances? Doubtful. Marcus is a skilled pilot in a small vessel, flying a bigger one takes a different skill. Sheridan is an expert in commanding a big ship in a war situation. Marcus isn't. Neither is Delenn. Sheridan was the right man, in the right place, at the right time (to coin a phrase!).

And what's wrong with Nuclear Wessels?! Chekov always was the only Star Trek TOS character I could stand. Loved Walter in B5 too. How cool is Bester?!

Crazy - I wouldn't like you to think I pick holes in this stuff because I'm finding fault. I'm not, honest! I've loved this show since C4 screened it for the very first time back in the mid nineties. I guess I just miss the old days of over-analysing every episode as soon as it aired!

"Stop calling me pastries."

46664 - Play Music - Fight AIDS