If so don't moan when and beg for Labour to come back and save you when the Tories...............
Run public service sinto the ground agin like they DELIBERATLY DONE in the 80's and 90's and cut public spending in general to give tax cuts to the rich and subsidies to the rich who buy national companies for peanuts and then get paid more than they "bought it for" every year in subsidies!!!!!
Thats what happens to the cuts in public spending and sevices, goes to the rich to make them richer and then if the rich owners mess up in their private "owned" compamies they go running back to the gov to bail them out.
Tax credits over time will go while being cut as will other benefits again for tax cuts to the rich.
Pension credit, winter fuel allowances, free tv licenses for OAP's all will go.
Minimum wage could well go to.
If the public ar ehappy for all of that to happen which they might say yes just out of some stupid spite or something, they will regret it fast when they start doing it.
Tory benefits in crime will be superficial and can only be improved if the build the prisons which they probably won't because again they would prefer to give the money to the rich instead.
On Glasgow, the origianl wrecker of the Labour gov, ony Blair suffered bigger losses swings in defeat in Brent East and Leicester South, the latter was re captured very quickly too, so SNP don't get to high on this.
Having said that, the gov should get rid of council tax and make councils to representations to how much money they need each year instead.
Might be back later but generally, pretty busy today. This sums it up pretty much anyway.
"Tory benefits in crime will be superficial and can only be improved if the build the prisons which they probably won't because again they would prefer to give the money to the rich instead."
Originally posted by THE DECIDER: On Glasgow, the origianl wrecker of the Labour gov, ony Blair suffered bigger losses swings in defeat in Brent East and Leicester South, the latter was re captured very quickly too, so SNP don't get to high on this.
The SNP won on the bacl of a successful and popular Scottish government, not as a protest about a poor Labour Government. Huge difference.
Yes, many working clas families would not have enjoyed the prospoerity they did without Labours tax credits but people love to take the money and run and not give credit where its due. Had the Tories staye din that money would have gone to the rich.
The Tories will make housing worse as well.
Thier have been significant improvements in hospitals, schools, railways, high speedlines from heathrow into london, saint pancras, west coast main line, cross rail to come if Labour stays in that is, tories will scrasp it and massive upgrade of the tubes and the M1 widening is almost complete with the M25 next.
All the Tories will do is cut cut cut and give it to the rich to make their wallets and bank balances bigger off the rest of us!!!!!
On Jails I've told you before both Blair and Brown have quoted Georgie boy Osbourne at PMQ's and Georgie boy doesn't deny it either, he just stares almost blankly in a don't care way when they read out his words of something like" lots of people will be coming to me to fund many of their expectations and the fact is the money won't be their"!
No word of a lie that. Also Cameron has a policy on prisons too, he want to sell old current being used prisons in london because their on prime value land and then with the money build other prisons elese where but does that mean EXTRA prisons or just replacing existing ones and what will he do first?
Sell/close down the existing prisons, get the money and then build or build the replacement one and then allow the old ones to close? In any case, I'm not gonna hold my breath that we will get EXTRA prison places and even uif he starts on day 1, we won't see any new prisons until the end of the parliamnet etc etc
What we actually require, imo, is a complete reappraisal of the underlying political system in this country. Our political system, as it stands, is never going to allow such a freedom - hence how we re-acquire what is rightfully ours, whilst staying within the realms of the law that politicians set to protect themselves (not us), is a far larger debate.
Decider unlike narrow minded people like yourself I believe in giving another party a chance. Just like I and a lot of others did in '97.
The labour party were unelectable throughout the Thatcher years, if they had been moderate she may have been voted out much earlier but they were not and that's history.
People are seeing correctly that all the optimistic voices and "ideas" are now coming from the tories. Thousands of pages of policy ideas have been developed over a long time and now we're beginning to see some meat on the bones.
What have labour offered us? More of the same, more of the same platitudes about "hard working families." Thanks, but no thanks I along with many others want a change.
If the tories mess up they won't last if labour remain "moderate" and don't drift back to looney leftism. I have a strong belief though that Cameron will impliment some good ideas. You will not because you're a tory hater, so they could do anything and you'll still believe they are bad.
It's the sort of attitude that keeps places like Glasgow East in poverty, but thank God for the first time since cave men walked the Earth they have plumped for "someone else."
Change is good, it freshens things up it revitalises parties. If the tories had lost in '92 which they should have, they would have come back stronger. But they hung on and were a dead force for years.
If you vote labour again, you may get them for another term, but you'll lose them for a generation because they have simply run out of steam.
Top down State control has had its day, people want a change of emphasis. Stop living in the past, it's so ridiculous.
Cameron has said he will match labour's spending (I think wrongly) he simply will not come in and slash spending it simply won't happen. He will no doubt over time reduce the rate of spending, correctly and look to probably cut business rates like the SNP have done to stimulate the economy.
It's hardly going to be ground breaking stuff, it's patently obvious from what Cameron is saying his focus is more on social breakdown and if you notice they have some radical policies for education which no one seems to have noticed based on the Swedish system.
The point is these are "ideas" something labour long lost.
Originally posted by harperson: Decider unlike narrow minded people like yourself I believe in giving another party a chance. Just like I and a lot of others did in '97.
The labour party were unelectable throughout the Thatcher years, if they had been moderate she may have been voted out much earlier but they were not and that's history.
People are seeing correctly that all the optimistic voices and "ideas" are now coming from the tories. Thousands of pages of policy ideas have been developed over a long time and now we're beginning to see some meat on the bones.
What have labour offered us? More of the same, more of the same platitudes about "hard working families." Thanks, but no thanks I along with many others want a change.
If the tories mess up they won't last if labour remain "moderate" and don't drift back to looney leftism. I have a strong belief though that Cameron will impliment some good ideas. You will not because you're a tory hater, so they could do anything and you'll still believe they are bad.
It's the sort of attitude that keeps places like Glasgow East in poverty, but thank God for the first time since cave men walked the Earth they have plumped for "someone else."
Change is good, it freshens things up it revitalises parties. If the tories had lost in '92 which they should have, they would have come back stronger. But they hung on and were a dead force for years.
If you vote labour again, you may get them for another term, but you'll lose them for a generation because they have simply run out of steam.
Top down State control has had its day, people want a change of emphasis. Stop living in the past, it's so ridiculous.
Cameron has said he will match labour's spending (I think wrongly) he simply will not come in and slash spending it simply won't happen. He will no doubt over time reduce the rate of spending, correctly and look to probably cut business rates like the SNP have done to stimulate the economy.
It's hardly going to be ground breaking stuff, it's patently obvious from what Cameron is saying his focus is more on social breakdown and if you notice they have some radical policies for education which no one seems to have noticed based on the Swedish system.
The point is these are "ideas" something labour long lost.
Really? Tell us some of these bright ideas and policies that the Tories have. You say they are emulating the Swedish model on education, well let me tell you something. You can not have Swedish style social policy without Swedish style taxation policy. That is the problem with the British electorate, they want Continental style social policy but North American style tax policy. The two are not compatible. The sooner we realise this the easier it will be all round.
And what, precisely, do you think Brown will have to do in a year's time when there is a collossal gap in the public finances?
He'll be cutting with one hand and borrowing with the other, and your children will be paying the price.
You're like a CD got stuck.
There is indeed a small band of Tory haters that no matter HOW incompetent their beloved Labour Party was in government, would still vote for them like sheep.
"Look at Iraq". "Well look at The Falklands, nerr nerr".
Nowhere near enough of you to keep Cameron out, as most folk either find the prospect of the Tories less loathsome than Labour OR they are prepared to actually believe they have changed for the better OR they are too young to remember what the Tories did donkeys years ago.
I'm old enough to remember how the Labour Party nearly sank the country without trace in the 70s. I still gave Blair the benefit of the doubt when he got in.
Originally posted by C.L.A.D: You can not have Swedish style social policy without Swedish style taxation policy. That is the problem with the British electorate, they want Continental style social policy but North American style tax policy. The two are not compatible. The sooner we realise this the easier it will be all round.
Whooh!
My god! The first bit of sense you have ever posted. And I agree with you.
I have been saying as much for yonks, not least during my LibDem years when trying to persuade people they would just love to pay more tax if only they saw what they got for it.
Sadly, Labour's blown the credibility of that argument, having tax and moreover, borrowed and spent like crazy on un-reformed public services with next-to-nowt to show for it.
I've said it before and I will again - we had cheap and crap services under the Tories. Now we have much more expensive and still crap services under Labour.
If they have to be crap, they might as well be cheap.
Originally posted by TrevGo: What an utterly redundant and farcical argument.
And what, precisely, do you think Brown will have to do in a year's time when there is a collossal gap in the public finances?
He'll be cutting with one hand and borrowing with the other, and your children will be paying the price.
You're like a CD got stuck.
There is indeed a small band of Tory haters that no matter HOW incompetent their beloved Labour Party was in government, would still vote for them like sheep.
"Look at Iraq". "Well look at The Falklands, nerr nerr".
Nowhere near enough of you to keep Cameron out, as most folk either find the prospect of the Tories less loathsome than Labour OR they are prepared to actually believe they have changed for the better OR they are too young to remember what the Tories did donkeys years ago.
I'm old enough to remember how the Labour Party nearly sank the country without trace in the 70s. I still gave Blair the benefit of the doubt when he got in.
Beautifully put, that is it in a nutshell. I can't be bothered to get into another slagging match with hardcore labourites, they hate tories so much it's almost like a health condition.
Originally posted by C.L.A.D: You can not have Swedish style social policy without Swedish style taxation policy. That is the problem with the British electorate, they want Continental style social policy but North American style tax policy. The two are not compatible. The sooner we realise this the easier it will be all round.
Whooh!
My god! The first bit of sense you have ever posted. And I agree with you.
I have been saying as much for yonks, not least during my LibDem years when trying to persuade people they would just love to pay more tax if only they saw what they got for it.
Sadly, Labour's blown the credibility of that argument, having tax and moreover, borrowed and spent like crazy on un-reformed public services with next-to-nowt to show for it.
I've said it before and I will again - we had cheap and crap services under the Tories. Now we have much more expensive and still crap services under Labour.
If they have to be crap, they might as well be cheap.
Yes, people voted for investment in '97 and they were willing to pay for it. What did we get back? Modest improvements at best.
Yes, many working clas families would not have enjoyed the prospoerity they did without Labours tax credits but people love to take the money and run and not give credit where its due.
Of course!. This prosperity you talk about, where is it?. As for the system of tax credits, few people that I know are happy with them, and how much have they cost this nation in extra paperwork?.
Had the Tories staye din that money would have gone to the rich.
Nice soundbite!.
But no Brucie Bonus. There hasnt been a marked decrease in millionaires under Nulab has there?. If there hasnt, where did they get that cash from?.
The UK public have seen the tax burden go up, or do you deny even that?.
The Tories will make housing worse as well.
ONLY your spin on the future, not fact!. I have no idea as to your profession, but Gordo should employ you, as you spin the facts even better than Nulab central office.
Thier have been significant improvements in hospitals, schools, railways, high speedlines from heathrow into london, saint pancras, west coast main line, cross rail to come if Labour stays in that is, tories will scrasp it and massive upgrade of the tubes and the M1 widening is almost complete with the M25 next.
While there are better services in the hospitals, and I have been a grateful recipient of them, the contracts that the new hospitals were built under, will be a millstone around the necks of future taxpayers for many years to come. Your rubbish about the Tories scrapping Crossrail, is to put it bluntly, a silly scare story, but if you can, PROVE IT!. The massive upgrade of the tubes?. How much has this cost, and for what benefit?. For instance, how much money was wasted on the collapse of Metronet?. PPP has been a total waste of money. Anyone with a car will welcome road widening, whoever carries it out, but as a case in point. Isnt it supposed to be Nulab policy, to reduce carbon emissions?. Do you do this by WIDENING the roads?.
All the Tories will do is cut cut cut and give it to the rich to make their wallets and bank balances bigger off the rest of us!!!!!
WOW!. If you have a bigger bank balance under Nulab, I am happy for you. Spare a thought though, for those of us that arent better off!.
What always makes me laugh is the "tories on side of rich" buzz phrase.
No they are on the side of "enterprise" on the side of "self reliance."
That's not pro rich, it's pro standing on your own two feet. But it seems amusing discussing this when new labour have been in power where social mobility has declined and the wealth gap increased.
Many on the hardcore labour side can't stomach the fact that many of the old working class became "middle class" under the conservatives. The shame of it!
They hate people with money, the envy is terrible. I don't envy them, I aspire to be like them in time. Big difference in attitude.
If the tories mess up they won't last if labour remain "moderate" and don't drift back to looney leftism. I have a strong belief though that Cameron will impliment some good ideas. You will not because you're a tory hater, so they could do anything and you'll still believe they are bad.
You are happy with the rabid right? look what two decades of right-wing authoritarian policies have got us.
Debt, no industries, poverty, beggars on the streets, a 'secret' slave class of immigrant workers, off-the-scale house prices and collapsing banks and energy bills determined by foreign speculators.
Choose Tory and get more of the same. Choose labour and get more of the same.
Might as well be resigned to the fact that you are stuffed and join the criminal class.
If the tories mess up they won't last if labour remain "moderate" and don't drift back to looney leftism. I have a strong belief though that Cameron will impliment some good ideas. You will not because you're a tory hater, so they could do anything and you'll still believe they are bad.
You are happy with the rabid right? look what two decades of right-wing authoritarian policies have got us.
Debt, no industries, poverty, beggars on the streets, a 'secret' slave class of immigrant workers, off-the-scale house prices and collapsing banks and energy bills determined by foreign speculators.
Choose Tory and get more of the same. Choose labour and get more of the same.
Might as well be resigned to the fact that you are stuffed and join the criminal class.
Why is Authoritarian always a right wing thing with you guys?
It's like the ID cards you people say this is "right wing" can you explain to me how increasing the State's power over the individual is "right wing?"
The Tories built more social housing in pretty much every year of their 18 years in office than Labour, and that was without overloading the housing market with mass immigration as Labour have done.
Originally posted by harperson: What always makes me laugh is the "tories on side of rich" buzz phrase.
No they are on the side of "enterprise" on the side of "self reliance."
That's not pro rich, it's pro standing on your own two feet. But it seems amusing discussing this when new labour have been in power where social mobility has declined and the wealth gap increased.
Many on the hardcore labour side can't stomach the fact that many of the old working class became "middle class" under the conservatives. The shame of it!
They hate people with money, the envy is terrible. I don't envy them, I aspire to be like them in time. Big difference in attitude.
If the rich where so self reliant then why are they given national companies at not only at peanut value but also given massive subsidies?
Thats really standing on their own 2 feet isn't it?
The last Tory privatisation which they really botched in the railways, those train operators still get 60% of their money from taxpayers subsidy!
Envy? No, more like anti BS and being taken for a fool by the likes of you or maybe your one of those who thinks you know it all but clearly don't!!!!
Labour have also regenerated and invested heavily into Towns and cities that the Tories neglected during their 18 years.
I know what I'm talking about because I live in a Tory stronghold politiclly and all they do is cut cut cut while raising council taxes each year too! They cut loads of services that we pay for through council tax and still have the audacity to keep on raising council tax.
I so know that jsut like the fools that jumped on the housing bandwagon and who went into denial that it would hit the buffers that those that are going into denial about how the Tories, that the Tories haven't changed, they so will relaise what I'm saying is true and they will regret it but whatever, whatever!!!!
I will enjoy the public ruing the day the Tories get in and if the scots go for independance then away they go too, good, where less likely to be Americas lap dog after that i reckon.
The Tories built more social housing in pretty much every year of their 18 years in office than Labour, and that was without overloading the housing market with mass immigration as Labour have done.
Tories sold Council houses at next to nothing, something they like doinmg a lot and they stopped building council houses in 1987. after that its been housing associations only building, another tory spin.
Labour have been outrageous in hse building but tell me, who BLOCKS social houses being built?
The Labour gov or the Tory dominated councils and the nimby ones who elect them who always come out protesting not in my back yard for when theirs plans to develop new housing?
What makes me laugh is that these fools protesting against new housing to be built don't rel
