What we want is PR - so its no longer a choice of two incompetent parties populated at the top by crawlers who's one motive in politics is to ingratiate themselves with their rich cronies.

I don't know what the British public were thinking when they voted in these New Labour war crims at the last election.

"I better vote in the mass murderers - because I don't like the Conservatives."

I don't like Tories either - but any party that lies and deceives to kill thousands of people doesn't deserve to have their freedom in society - let alone be elected into power.

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:
I don't know what the British public were thinking when they voted in these New Labour war crims at the last election.

(1) Oooh look, my house has trebled in value and those nice banks give me as much unearned money as I ask for.

(2) Oooh look, that nice government will support me in having several kids by age 25 and I won't have to live in the real world.

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:
I don't know what the British public were thinking when they voted in these New Labour war crims at the last election.

"I better vote in the mass murderers - because I don't like the Conservatives."

I don't like Tories either - but any party that lies and deceives to kill thousands of people doesn't deserve to have their freedom in society - let alone be elected into power.

All but 12 Conservative MP's voted for Iraq! Uniquely committed. (Over 80% were in Friends of Israel)

quote:

Originally posted by K B:

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:
I don't know what the British public were thinking when they voted in these New Labour war crims at the last election.

"I better vote in the mass murderers - because I don't like the Conservatives."

I don't like Tories either - but any party that lies and deceives to kill thousands of people doesn't deserve to have their freedom in society - let alone be elected into power.

All but 12 Conservative MP's voted for Iraq! Uniquely committed. (Over 80% were in Friends of Israel)

But it was the New Labour government that lied about the intelligence and legality - true or false?

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:
But it was the New Labour government that lied about the intelligence and legality - true or false?

The idea that Iraq was any threat to the UK was ridiculous. Even if they'd had a few chemical weapons they were zero threat. A small country a continent away - in Israel's region, but not ours.

Blair/Levy/Goldsmith et al in the Labour had the same motive as the Tory's and it had nothing to do with legality or intelligence - Israel's security (plus individual MP's crawl along their career path). There aren't two main parties in Westminster on such matters - there's only one.

It was the Tory's who carried the vote in the Commons. Their hands drip with blood just as much (in voting terms even more) than the Labour party.

This defence of the Tory's that they were innocents mislead by the government is as ridiculous as the idea that Iraq became an imminent and dangerous threat to the UK just at the exact moment Bush/Blair/Sharon wanted Iraq to be invaded.

I agree, The Decider is like a stuck record, criticizes the Tories but unable to understand the failures of New Labour. This considering New Labour have had more than a decade in power.

I reckon the Raving Looney party is a more credible alternative to New Labour.

Some fail to understand the difference between (due to wearing of NL blinkers):

1. It is legal to invade and we have real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

2. It is illegal to invade and we have NO real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

quote:

Originally posted by harperson:
What always makes me laugh is the "tories on side of rich" buzz phrase.

No they are on the side of "enterprise" on the side of "self reliance."

That's not pro rich, it's pro standing on your own two feet. But it seems amusing discussing this when new labour have been in power where social mobility has declined and the wealth gap increased.

Many on the hardcore labour side can't stomach the fact that many of the old working class became "middle class" under the conservatives. The shame of it!

They hate people with money, the envy is terrible. I don't envy them, I aspire to be like them in time. Big difference in attitude.

Spot on.

They also hate a lot of the working class because they had the cheek to want to buy their council homes.

How terribly unsocialist.

quote:

Originally posted by K B:
This defence of the Tory's that they were innocents mislead by the government is as ridiculous as the idea that Iraq became an imminent and dangerous threat to the UK just at the exact moment Bush/Blair/Sharon wanted Iraq to be invaded.

Labour delivered the lies.

True or false?

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:
Some fail to understand the difference between (due to wearing of NL blinkers):

1. It is legal to invade and we have real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

2. It is illegal to invade and we have NO real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

a) I hate New Labour.

b) Iraq had arms inspectors crawling all over it - they were no possible threat to anybody.

If you were a member of the public concerned with cornflakes or sugar Puffs for breakfast, not knowing much about it, and it being just a thing on the news to you - i can understand you going along with whatever garbage the government and media was feeding you.

As a politician voting on the issue - no. The Tories were uniquely 'gullible' then. Almost to a man. Far more so than the Labour backbenchers who had party loyalty and career progression as a reason to support the government.

Like i say - over 80% were in Conservative Friends of Israel. Israeli security was conflated with "World" security, and "World" security with British security. Hence this country invaded another a continent away which was no threat to us. Their vote had next to nothing to do with the government's lies or any intelligence.

quote:

Israel is a part of the front line for democracy against terrorism.

It must not stand alone.

And Mr Chairman we will not let it stand alone.


Like everyone here today, I am also passionately concerned how we bring peace to the Middle East and the wider world.

Saddam Hussein is a constant and dangerous threat to that peace.

Ian Duncan Smith speech to conservative Friends of Israel

http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=news.story.pag..._id=47398&speeches=1

To sum up: their hands drip with the same blood. Your drawing a distinction between them doesn't stand up: there wasn't one.

quote:

Originally posted by K B:
To sum up: their hands drip with the same blood. Your drawing a distinction between them doesn't stand up: there wasn't one.

There was a big difference - as stated in my previous post - you just fail to see it.

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:

quote:

Originally posted by K B:
To sum up: their hands drip with the same blood. Your drawing a distinction between them doesn't stand up: there wasn't one.

There was a big difference - as stated in my previous post - you just fail to see it.

We're going round in circle aren't we.

You're assuming Tory MP's were brain dead morons with IQ's of 5 and a gullibility rating of 5000,000% who - uniquely/more than anybody and everybody else - were incapable of doing anything other than believe the OBVIOUS (to me and millions of other people) nonsense the government were telling them. And therefore voting for the war wasn't their fault! It was the governments. Nonsense.

Signs out...

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:

quote:

Originally posted by K B:
To sum up: their hands drip with the same blood. Your drawing a distinction between them doesn't stand up: there wasn't one.

There was a big difference - as stated in my previous post - you just fail to see it.

Did you believe Blair's lies at the beginning? or were you, as I was, sceptical about the whole thing and dead against any invasion?

If you answer yes, then it is a stretch too far to ask anyone to believe the Tory's [who were much closer to the political arena than the man in the street] did not ignore any warning signs and "go with the flow"

Err.. I did not believe Bliars lies - indeed I later spelt out why legality was a lie i.e. about Goldsmiths deception.

http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/503603557/m/3490049144/p/1

The point I was making is that those in authority said it was legal and justified therefore they didn't look closely at those issues for various reasons - including support for Israel.

BUT they could not have done so had New Labour not lied about legality and intelligence.

i.e. The difference between:

1. It is legal to invade and we have real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

2. It is illegal to invade and we have NO real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:
Err.. I did not believe Bliars lies - indeed I later spelt out why legality was a lie i.e. about Goldsmiths deception.

http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/503603557/m/3490049144/p/1

The point I was making is that those in authority said it was legal and justified therefore they didn't look closely at those issues for various reasons - including support for Israel.

BUT they could not have done so had New Labour not lied about legality and intelligence.

i.e. The difference between:

1. It is legal to invade and we have real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

2. It is illegal to invade and we have NO real intelligence of danger from WMD - do you want to invade?

Well, I would say that, if ordinary people like you and I, did not believe the lies and were sceptical, it's odds on that the Tories did not believe the lies either, but voted to go to war in any case.

They were every bit as guilty, whatever their agenda was.

quote:

Originally posted by K B:

quote:

Originally posted by MadWorld:

quote:

Originally posted by K B:
To sum up: their hands drip with the same blood. Your drawing a distinction between them doesn't stand up: there wasn't one.

There was a big difference - as stated in my previous post - you just fail to see it.

We're going round in circle aren't we.

You're assuming Tory MP's were brain dead morons with IQ's of 5 and a gullibility rating of 5000,000% who - uniquely/more than anybody and everybody else - were incapable of doing anything other than believe the OBVIOUS (to me and millions of other people) nonsense the government were telling them. And therefore voting for the war wasn't their fault! It was the governments. Nonsense.

Signs out...

Don't understand the %figure, but I agree with you KB. There were a few Tories who did see through Bliar like Clarke and Lansley.

quote:

Originally posted by hardwon:
Well, I would say that, if ordinary people like you and I, did not believe the lies and were sceptical, it's odds on that the Tories did not believe the lies either, but voted to go to war in any case.

They were every bit as guilty, whatever their agenda was.

Completely agree.

quote:

Originally posted by harperson:

quote:

Originally posted by The Magnetist:

quote:

If the tories mess up they won't last if labour remain "moderate" and don't drift back to looney leftism. I have a strong belief though that Cameron will impliment some good ideas. You will not because you're a tory hater, so they could do anything and you'll still believe they are bad.

You are happy with the rabid right? look what two decades of right-wing authoritarian policies have got us.

Debt, no industries, poverty, beggars on the streets, a 'secret' slave class of immigrant workers, off-the-scale house prices and collapsing banks and energy bills determined by foreign speculators.

Choose Tory and get more of the same. Choose labour and get more of the same.

Might as well be resigned to the fact that you are stuffed and join the criminal class.

Why is Authoritarian always a right wing thing with you guys?

It's like the ID cards you people say this is "right wing" can you explain to me how increasing the State's power over the individual is "right wing?"

It is not 'always'...

You can also have 'left-wing authoritarian' but the parties we have are 'right-wing authoritarian'.

Increasing the power of the state via draconian ID cards is 'authoritarian'. It has been done by a right-wing party. Therefore it is right-wing authoritarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_Authoritarianism

quote:

Originally posted by TheBishop:

quote:

Originally posted by harperson:
What always makes me laugh is the "tories on side of rich" buzz phrase.

No they are on the side of "enterprise" on the side of "self reliance."

That's not pro rich, it's pro standing on your own two feet. But it seems amusing discussing this when new labour have been in power where social mobility has declined and the wealth gap increased.

Many on the hardcore labour side can't stomach the fact that many of the old working class became "middle class" under the conservatives. The shame of it!

They hate people with money, the envy is terrible. I don't envy them, I aspire to be like them in time. Big difference in attitude.

Spot on.

They also hate a lot of the working class because they had the cheek to want to buy their council homes.

How terribly unsocialist.

What these baby-boomers did not realise was that they were selling out. This might not have mattered but their selling out (for the best of personal reasons) happened in an environment that has now doomed their children to endless debt and the inability to buy a home for themselves.

The cash tied up in this ex-council houses will be sucked right back when the individual working-class person needs health care when elderly. Nice, closed 'compliance maintenance system' and you all swallowed it...

The un-socialist aspect was that Thatcher realised that making mini-capitalists of the people would help her party's future. I think she was right.

When it comes to the Iraq war the Tories were pro invasion too. Yeah Blair lied, but I don't believe it would of been any different if it was a Conservative Government. Even now many Tory MP's still think it was RIGHT to invade Iraq, that is when they know full well it was based on lies.

I believe the Iraq war was just for Oil. Iran is next, wonder what lies they will tell us this time?