quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by gt:

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by Turk123:

quote:

Even without economic sanctions imposed by the US we, have a system that represses its civilian population.

Yes, they don't have the freedoms that they should have in an ideal World, but see my post of cause & effect to understand why this is so.

There are also many who believe that all the measure the US takes against Cuba, are designed to deliberately force Castro to act repressively, so that they can point their hypocritical fingers at the "undemocratic Tyrant".

It's always good to have a "bogeyman", who you can represent as "an evil dictator", and whose name you suggest is synonymous with Stalin or Hitler. By creating this climate of fear and loathing, the USA can invade countries, try to bankrupt them financially, topple their leaders and replace them with US puppets, steal their resources. Unfortunately, they couldn't topple Castro, and it bugs them no end.

Well that doesn't stop the fact that there are dictators repressing their populace.

You are entirely correct, the US is well aware of who they are, having supported them many a time - Saddam Hussein and the military dictator Musharraf - to name but two.

I don't remember them doing it to Stalin and Hitler, thats the ones you mentioned in the post i responded to.

Maybe some basic history would help you, or maybe your deliberately contradicting your original point to be pedantic. Its fun, I do it often.

quote:

Originally posted by gt:

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by gt:

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by Turk123:

quote:

Even without economic sanctions imposed by the US we, have a system that represses its civilian population.

Yes, they don't have the freedoms that they should have in an ideal World, but see my post of cause & effect to understand why this is so.

There are also many who believe that all the measure the US takes against Cuba, are designed to deliberately force Castro to act repressively, so that they can point their hypocritical fingers at the "undemocratic Tyrant".

It's always good to have a "bogeyman", who you can represent as "an evil dictator", and whose name you suggest is synonymous with Stalin or Hitler. By creating this climate of fear and loathing, the USA can invade countries, try to bankrupt them financially, topple their leaders and replace them with US puppets, steal their resources. Unfortunately, they couldn't topple Castro, and it bugs them no end.

Well that doesn't stop the fact that there are dictators repressing their populace.

You are entirely correct, the US is well aware of who they are, having supported them many a time - Saddam Hussein and the military dictator Musharraf - to name but two.

I don't remember them doing it to Stalin and Hitler, thats the ones you mentioned in the post i responded to.

Maybe some basic history would help you, or maybe your deliberately contradicting your original point to be pedantic. Its fun, I do it often.

For being pedantic, you're a bit ambiguous. I didn't contradict my original point. I answered yours. Your statement was that Well that doesn't stop the fact that there are dictators repressing their populace. I was simply pointing out that, yes, indeed, you were correct, there are dictators about repressing their population, one of which is President Musharraf, who the US supports.

Talking of ambiguity, I have no idea whether you find being pedantic fun, or contradicting your original point to be pedantic. Perhaps both.

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by gt:

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by Turk123:

quote:

Even without economic sanctions imposed by the US we, have a system that represses its civilian population.

Yes, they don't have the freedoms that they should have in an ideal World, but see my post of cause & effect to understand why this is so.

There are also many who believe that all the measure the US takes against Cuba, are designed to deliberately force Castro to act repressively, so that they can point their hypocritical fingers at the "undemocratic Tyrant".

It's always good to have a "bogeyman", who you can represent as "an evil dictator", and whose name you suggest is synonymous with Stalin or Hitler. By creating this climate of fear and loathing, the USA can invade countries, try to bankrupt them financially, topple their leaders and replace them with US puppets, steal their resources. Unfortunately, they couldn't topple Castro, and it bugs them no end.

Well that doesn't stop the fact that there are dictators repressing their populace.

You are entirely correct, the US is well aware of who they are, having supported them many a time - Saddam Hussein and the military dictator Musharraf - to name but two.

A more comprehensive list of America,s friendly dictators.

Abacha, General Sani,Nigeria
Amin,Idi Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo,Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio,Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal,Brunei
Botha, P.W.,South Africa
Branco, General Humberto ,Brazil
Cedras, Raoul,Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio,Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek,Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo,Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo,El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ,Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel,Liberia
Duvalier, Francois ,Haiti
Duvalier, Jean,Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King,saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco,Spain
Hassan II,Morocco
Hussein,Saddam Iraq
Marcos, Ferdinand,Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez,El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko,Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel,Panama
Ozal, Turgut,Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza,Iran
Papadopoulos, George,Greece
Park Chung Hee,South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto,Chile
Pol Pot,Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni,Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios,Guatemala
Salassie, Halie,Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira,Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr.,Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr.,Nicaragua
Smith, Ian,Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo,Paraguay
Suharto, General,Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas,Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael,Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed,Pakistan
Musharraf,Pervez,Pakistan

Many Americans actively financed Hitler namely Prescott Bush,Georges Grandaddy, with his group of bankers the Harriman and Dulles brothers,Herbert Walker,Georges other Grandaddy through their proxy Fritz Thyssen and IG Farben,the company that built Aushwitz.Rockefeller supplied German fuel and Henry Ford built German tanks right up until 1943.Prescott Bush was even charged under the trading with the enemy act but had his vast profits from WW2 restored.That is where the Bush family gained their wealth in the first place.When you consider Arbenz of Guatamala was overthrown by a CIA coup because of his land reforms which affected the profits of the United Fruit Company.A company owned in part by Rockefeller and Dulles,who was head of the CIA at the time,you can see a conflict of interest.Prescott sired two presidents and Dulles had an airport named after him.Only in America!.

The World is full of dictators, certain countries just didn't get the lucky card.

Humans are seriously flawed when it comes to how they treat their fellow human, something we'll never change.

So many corrupt people in power but countries need to do business with others.

hhmmmm I think I'm talking to myself don't worry

quote:

Originally posted by Ms Stoosh:
The World is full of dictators, certain countries just didn't get the lucky card.

Humans are seriously flawed when it comes to how they treat their fellow human, something we'll never change.

So many corrupt people in power but countries need to do business with others.

hhmmmm I think I'm talking to myself don't worry

No you're not.

What amuses me is the way people seem to think that if they can point to another dictator (preferably one supported by the USA) it somehow excuses Castro and makes it OK for him to have done whatever he liked for the past 50 years.

not much amazes/shocks me about humans Anon (glad someone understood what I was trying to say). I mean, when you have folk who are willing to suggest that the Holocause is a figment of imagination then anything is possible

quote:

Originally posted by Anonimouse:

quote:

Originally posted by Ms Stoosh:
The World is full of dictators, certain countries just didn't get the lucky card.

Humans are seriously flawed when it comes to how they treat their fellow human, something we'll never change.

So many corrupt people in power but countries need to do business with others.

hhmmmm I think I'm talking to myself don't worry

No you're not.

What amuses me is the way people seem to think that if they can point to another dictator (preferably one supported by the USA) it somehow excuses Castro and makes it OK for him to have done whatever he liked for the past 50 years.

Is it alright that America have done what they like for the last 60 years.If you add up the number of people killed by those American backed dictators you get a minimum of 8 million deaths.Thats not even adding the number that America have directly killed.This amuses you does it!

It isn't alright but the one doesn't cancel the other out

quote:

Originally posted by Janner Bob:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anonimouse:

Is it alright that America have done what they like for the last 60 years.If you add up the number of people killed by those American backed dictators you get a minimum of 8 million deaths.Thats not even adding the number that America have directly killed.This amuses you does it!

I haven't a clue how your logic reaches this conclusion!

Firstly - Where have I said that the USA is a paragon of virtue? I don't believe that and I haven't said it.

Secondly - How does bad mouthing the USA have anything to do with the fact that Castro has been a despot? Are you saying that if the USA had acted differently then Castro wouldn't have been a dictator? The man gained power as a revolutionary leader who led an armed coup. There is precious little difference between him and Batista in the way they operated to keep power in their own two hands.

Sorry but Castro is not a saint, he is a thug who gained power by force and no amount of trying to deflect the argument onto the clowns in Washington will alter that salient detail.

quote:

Originally posted by Janner Bob:

quote:

Originally posted by Anonimouse:

No you're not.

What amuses me is the way people seem to think that if they can point to another dictator (preferably one supported by the USA) it somehow excuses Castro and makes it OK for him to have done whatever he liked for the past 50 years.

Is it alright that America have done what they like for the last 60 years.If you add up the number of people killed by those American backed dictators you get a minimum of 8 million deaths.Thats not even adding the number that America have directly killed.This amuses you does it!

I believe the argument put forward is that one cannot defend the actions of a government or individual by always pointing to something you consider worse and thus using the odd logic of relativism.

To which you responded with relativism to deflect from the core argument. I give you 10/10 for chutzpah.

The core issue for me is that Castro may have helped improve education and introduced a good healthcare system, but his supporters view this as outweighing the suppression of individual rights and the use of torture and execution on political opponents and groups. To me, the freedom of the individual from oppression is the most basic requirement. Achievements elsewhere cannot outweigh or justify oppression.

One might say that elsewhere this routinely happens as well. But isn't this socialist model supposed to be better, according to the left?

Instead it is proof that if you concentrate control and power to a small group of people where they have no accountability to the wider populace, then you get widespread abuse of the rights of that populace. And it doesn't matter if the government mantra is communist, socialist, anarchist or capitalist. This cocktail always gives the same results.

quote:

Originally posted by snowinthestow:

quote:

Originally posted by Janner Bob:

quote:

Originally posted by Anonimouse:

No you're not.

What amuses me is the way people seem to think that if they can point to another dictator (preferably one supported by the USA) it somehow excuses Castro and makes it OK for him to have done whatever he liked for the past 50 years.

Is it alright that America have done what they like for the last 60 years.If you add up the number of people killed by those American backed dictators you get a minimum of 8 million deaths.Thats not even adding the number that America have directly killed.This amuses you does it!

I believe the argument put forward is that one cannot defend the actions of a government or individual by always pointing to something you consider worse and thus using the odd logic of relativism.

To which you responded with relativism to deflect from the core argument. I give you 10/10 for chutzpah.

The core issue for me is that Castro may have helped improve education and introduced a good healthcare system, but his supporters view this as outweighing the suppression of individual rights and the use of torture and execution on political opponents and groups. To me, the freedom of the individual from oppression is the most basic requirement. Achievements elsewhere cannot outweigh or justify oppression.

One might say that elsewhere this routinely happens as well. But isn't this socialist model supposed to be better, according to the left?

Instead it is proof that if you concentrate control and power to a small group of people where they have no accountability to the wider populace, then you get widespread abuse of the rights of that populace. And it doesn't matter if the government mantra is communist, socialist, anarchist or capitalist. This cocktail always gives the same results.

Thank you for constructing the reasoned reply I didn't have the patience to make!

quote:

Originally posted by Anonimouse:

quote:

Originally posted by Ms Stoosh:
The World is full of dictators, certain countries just didn't get the lucky card.

Humans are seriously flawed when it comes to how they treat their fellow human, something we'll never change.

So many corrupt people in power but countries need to do business with others.

hhmmmm I think I'm talking to myself don't worry

No you're not.

What amuses me is the way people seem to think that if they can point to another dictator (preferably one supported by the USA) it somehow excuses Castro and makes it OK for him to have done whatever he liked for the past 50 years.

Kind of like all world leaders, really, when you put it like that...

... only we think we have democracy because we have two main different parties doing the same things, and think we have a choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by gt:

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:

quote:

Originally posted by Turk123:

quote:

Even without economic sanctions imposed by the US we, have a system that represses its civilian population.

Yes, they don't have the freedoms that they should have in an ideal World, but see my post of cause & effect to understand why this is so.

There are also many who believe that all the measure the US takes against Cuba, are designed to deliberately force Castro to act repressively, so that they can point their hypocritical fingers at the "undemocratic Tyrant".

It's always good to have a "bogeyman", who you can represent as "an evil dictator", and whose name you suggest is synonymous with Stalin or Hitler. By creating this climate of fear and loathing, the USA can invade countries, try to bankrupt them financially, topple their leaders and replace them with US puppets, steal their resources. Unfortunately, they couldn't topple Castro, and it bugs them no end.

Well that doesn't stop the fact that there are dictators repressing their populace.

You are entirely correct, the US is well aware of who they are, having supported them many a time - Saddam Hussein and the military dictator Musharraf - to name but two.

Yes I'm sure Saddam Hussein was very grateful for "support" like that.

quote:

The core issue for me is that Castro may have helped improve education and introduced a good healthcare system, but his supporters view this as outweighing the suppression of individual rights and the use of torture and execution on political opponents and groups. To me, the freedom of the individual from oppression is the most basic requirement. Achievements elsewhere cannot outweigh or justify oppression.

One might say that elsewhere this routinely happens as well. But isn't this socialist model supposed to be better, according to the left?

Instead it is proof that if you concentrate control and power to a small group of people where they have no accountability to the wider populace, then you get widespread abuse of the rights of that populace. And it doesn't matter if the government mantra is communist, socialist, anarchist or capitalist. This cocktail always gives the same results.

Your argument firstly falls down because of not taking into account outside influence that has shaped how Cuba has developed; namely the 50 year old campaign waged by the US to destroy the Cuban revolution. Castro, who after literally hundreds of assassination attempts, was understandably paranoid both for himself, and after countless covert & overt attempts at sabotage, for Cuba itself. A nation under siege simply cannot afford to be as openly “democratic” as others nations who are not under threat, simply because this will be a weakness, an Achilles Heel, that those wishing harm will exploit. We only have to consider how the civil liberties were curtailed here during the two World Wars, and how the “human rights” of those who openly sided with the enemy or criticised our War Leaders were taken away. Indeed in the last few years, because of the “Terror Threat”, we ourselves have now lost many freedoms that have existed for generations. The point is that you cannot examine & judge something in isolation; there is always a context and a reason. This doesn’t mean bad things are excused, but only if they are understood properly can they be judged fairly.

The second point is that all the reports of torture & executions may be the exaggerated results of deliberate demonisation, as we saw with the Russians, Serbs, Saddam & others. Many of the anti-Castro émigrés groups are notorious fronts for CIA propaganda. The fact that Cuba is increasingly relying on mass tourism, doesn’t really fit the image of a secret closed State where unreported horrors occur daily.

Yes, I admit I may have got a little carried away in my homage to Castro and GG's comments but the sentiment was true and as far as i'm concerned justified. May be I am a socialist romanticist but surely anyone can see the positive aspects of Castro's regime. To say the majority of Cuban's are unhappy is utter rubbish. Of course there will be people who are opposed to Castro but on the whole he stands for a noble cause and sincerely cares for his people which is saying a lot more than his neighbour.

quote:

Originally posted by Thewitchisback:
For being pedantic, you're a bit ambiguous. I didn't contradict my original point. I answered yours. Your statement was that Well that doesn't stop the fact that there are dictators repressing their populace. I was simply pointing out that, yes, indeed, you were correct, there are dictators about repressing their population, one of which is President Musharraf, who the US supports.

Talking of ambiguity, I have no idea whether you find being pedantic fun, or contradicting your original point to be pedantic. Perhaps both.

Both, but not as much as you it seems. Glad to see you spotted i was correct, that even surprised me.

I know a few people who have been to Cuba and they have said that yes, there is poverty there, but the majority of people are happy.

What would make Castro no different from the dictators that Janner Bob listed would be if he had been siphoning money into a Swiss bank account whilst his people lived in poverty.

Galloway was brilliant as usual.

quote:

Originally posted by Liz***:
I know a few people who have been to Cuba and they have said that yes, there is poverty there, but the majority of people are happy.

What would make Castro no different from the dictators that Janner Bob listed would be if he had been siphoning money into a Swiss bank account whilst his people lived in poverty.

Galloway was brilliant as usual.

I'm sure there are happy people in north korea as well. Their dictator must be a nice happy man as well.

quote:

Originally posted by gt:
I'm sure there are happy people in north korea as well. Their dictator must be a nice happy man as well.

Unfortunately North Korea have never taken any cash from the mouths of the CIA heads as described earlier in the case of Guatemala which deprived the United Fruit company of some cash. Curiously, the exact same CIA chief owned company which had it's Cuban operations nationalised by Castro causing the USA to spend hundreds of billions persecuting the Cubans by starving them of technology, mounting invasions, plotting failed assassinations, constantly threatening Nuclear destruction and depriving the Island of the USA ethos of free market trade.