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quote: Originally posted by Rabies:
Neither Turk123 or any other of the Cuban mass-murdering-dictator admirers are unable to deny that an average 3,000 Cubans a year take to shark-infested seas in makeshift craft to escape Castro's socialist paradise.
One of the Cuban mass-murdering-dictator admirers even had the brass neck to imply that Cuba had a better human rights record than the UK and USA, conveniently omitting the fact that citizens of Cuba can be prosecuted or imprisoned for:
* Publishing articles or giving interviews said to be critical of economic, social or human rights matters in Cuba.
* Communicating with international human rights organisations.
* Having contact with those viewed as hostile to Cuba's interests, including US officials in Cuba, or members of the Cuban exile community.
Said Cuban mass-murdering-dictator admirer also omitted to acknowledge that:
* Cubans must obtain official permission to leave or return to the island. It is often denied, sometimes punitively.
* Cuba declines all requests from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch to visit the island.
There is no difference between those in denial over the Holocaust and those in denial over the human rights records of socialist dictators such as Castro, in my book. It is simply a matter of the degree of human suffering inflicted. Both types of denialist are odious.
Don't forget those in denial over the Armenian Holocaust, i.e., the British and US Governments who conveniently ignore it to keep in with Turkey - indeed an odious position to take. Good word "odious" - thanks for reminding me to use it.  |
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You know what Witch, I absolutely do overstand (some of) your point(s) on this topic
The "goodguys" sometimes do equally abhorant things (with regard to humans, human rights, humanity), just in a more "pleasant" and "legal" (sometimes not). And when I say abhorant things sometimes I mean by merely standing by and not necessarily directly.
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quote: Originally posted by snowinthestow: quote: Originally posted by Turk123: quote: How much do you know, are you not maybe just stating propaganda.
Thats the same rubbish the left went on about Stalin when he was in power.
Goodness me, you even older than I envisaged gt! Finding out what & what isn’t propaganda is what debates are all about. It is noticeable that the Cuba knockers mostly post just demonising slogans & clichés, and when they do attempt to provide backup, as Rabies tried for his figure of 77,000 victims of Castro, by quoting (probably CIA stooge) Maria Werlau, it very much backfired when I found & linked to an article in which the same Maria Werlau, “when asked by journalists how many have been killed in the name of the Cuban revolution, she could only respond with an approximation of “ I am not sure, 100,000, 200,000..” !!! Exclamation marks are mine, both for the way she pucks figures out of the air according to her mood, and for the ludicrous figures themselves. That is the only real “slam dunk” on this Thread, so far !
Turk, on the rationale that the numbers vary, one could dismiss the Iraqi figures for instance. I don't think much is gained by debating whether it is 10,000 or 100,000 at this stage - like Iraq, no-one will be able to give an accurate figure. Certainly the number that have left cuba and taken up asylum in the US and other countries can be more accurately estimated. The US alone has over 2M cubans. Not all of these can be upper class Batista confidents and CIA stooges. 2M is actually around 10%-15% of the total Cuba population - a significant proportion. I would say that also it is fair to say that executions and torture of political opponents to the regime has happened, and that these numbers conservatively will be in the high thousands. One can dispute the cause of this supression. You think it is due to the sanctions and assination plots, and I can see the logic of this. But I do think the style of communist / socialist government where the state controls virtually all aspect of civilian life without accountability has much more to do with the repression. After all repressive regimes with this ideology are not without precendent! I certainly don't think the embargo was in any way effective. Firstly the soviet bloc bankrolled Cuba during the communist era, and the numerous, rather incredible, attempts to overthrow Castro by the US just helped to justify his propaganda to his people. I believe Castro was a socialist by expediancy more than any deeply held ideology - he after started off on a nationalist stance. But after the US embargo, it was sensible for him to court the USSR by implementing socialist reforms - which after all were not a million miles from the nationlist reforms he had begun anyway. I think of him as a pragmatist - during the special period he opened up free markets to alleviate the huge economic depression. He wasn't going to follow socialist ideology to the point of being deposed. So, I don't think of him in the same vein as Saddam Hussein or Kim Il sung. Castro implemented health reforms and education programmes that helped the people. I do not think of him as a despot. But I do believe his ideology deeply flawed, and the supression of the people to be unjustified, and a direct result of the unaccountability that this ideology generates. I certainly do not think him or his government can be used as justification that this type of socialism is the answer.
I like it,some reasoned logic instead of soundbites.I agree with nearly everything you have said,nobody has said Castro was not without faults.Is that the whole story though?is that why Castro has been vilified.America has proven dozens of times it does not care about oppression.I mean Batista was a nasty piece of work but he played the game,he was openly incestuous with the Dulles Brothers.Thats why he was so hated and why Castro came to power in the first place.See its blowback again!.So it proves my point that all the screeching and hype about the brutal dictator is disingenuous.Just a long list of lies to deceive and make fools of all of us.Its not about brutal dictators at all its about Castro not playing by Americas rules,not bending over when he was supposed too.He dared to nationalize the corporate interests of America,he dared to say no.Allende,Arbenz,Mussadegh etc were not given that option. |
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quote: Originally posted by Ms Stoosh:
You know what Witch, I absolutely do overstand (some of) your point(s) on this topic
The "goodguys" sometimes do equally abhorant things (with regard to humans, human rights, humanity), just in a more "pleasant" and "legal" (sometimes not). And when I say abhorant things sometimes I mean by merely standing by and not necessarily directly.
And when I say abhorant things sometimes I mean by merely standing by and not necessarily directlyNot like bulldozing living Iraqi soldiers into mass graves as the Coalition forces did in the previous Gulfwar, supporting death squads in Latin America, or machinegunning men, women and children as the US did in Vietnam... you mean, Mrs Stoosh.  |
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Witch I'm not denying anything you said above ... I said "not necessarily" (meaning not always the way the "typical" baddy does it)
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quote: Originally posted by Ms Stoosh:
Witch I'm not denying anything you said above ... I said "not necessarily" (meaning not always the way the "typical" baddy does it)
Glad you ARE aware, Mrs Stoosh, that we (the US and/or UK) are often the actual perpetrators of some quite horrific and inhumane actions against other human beings, and, if we are not perpetrating them, we are often bankrolling them.  |
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quote: Turk, on the rationale that the numbers vary, one could dismiss the Iraqi figures for instance. I don't think much is gained by debating whether it is 10,000 or 100,000 at this stage - like Iraq, no-one will be able to give an accurate figure.
The difference is that the Iraqi figures are given by professional & internationally respected academic bodies, whereas these totally unverified & unreliable hyped-up Cuban numbers come from CIA fronts masking as Cuban exile groups. But yes even one single unjust murder or act of repression is wrong, but in the context of a war situation, let’s remember our own record; during the Second World War, just under two thousand British citizens (and many more “foreign aliens”) were detained without charge, trial, or term set, under Regulation 18B of the wartime Defence Regulations. Individuals who were arrested had little chance of redress, and could be kept in prison indefinitely with no attempt to charge or try them with any offence. The evidence on which they were arrested was secret and sometimes of dubious accuracy. Further individuals that openly supported our enemy, like stooge CIA Cuban operatives supporting the US against Cuba, were executed, just like Lord Haw Haw was. quote: Certainly the number that have left cuba and taken up asylum in the US and other countries can be more accurately estimated. The US alone has over 2M cubans. Not all of these can be upper class Batista confidents and CIA stooges. 2M is actually around 10%-15% of the total Cuba population - a significant proportion.
This is a red herring; people always leave poorer Countries for richer countries, & especially ironic as because a lot of the poverty & deprivations in Cuba are attributable to the illegal US embargo. Many people will undertake life risking journeys for the notion of a better life, as we know only too well. quote: I would say that also it is fair to say that executions and torture of political opponents to the regime has happened, and that these numbers conservatively will be in the high thousands.
I really do doubt that, as I don’t think that any respected Human Rights organisation mentions executions or tortures; they criticise things such as cases of detentions without trial (sounds familiar ?), restrictions in freedom of expression & association, & harassment& intimidation of dissidents & activists. And these cases are not in the thousands, or even in the hundreds, but in the dozens at the most per year. quote: One can dispute the cause of this supression. You think it is due to the sanctions and assination plots, and I can see the logic of this. But I do think the style of communist / socialist government where the state controls virtually all aspect of civilian life without accountability has much more to do with the repression. After all repressive regimes with this ideology are not without precendent! I certainly don't think the embargo was in any way effective. Firstly the soviet bloc bankrolled Cuba during the communist era, and the numerous, rather incredible, attempts to overthrow Castro by the US just helped to justify his propaganda to his people.
This is confirmation that your opinion about the situation & realities of Cuba is influenced by your political prejudice. quote: I believe Castro was a socialist by expediancy more than any deeply held ideology - he after started off on a nationalist stance. But after the US embargo, it was sensible for him to court the USSR by implementing socialist reforms - which after all were not a million miles from the nationlist reforms he had begun anyway. I think of him as a pragmatist - during the special period he opened up free markets to alleviate the huge economic depression. He wasn't going to follow socialist ideology to the point of being deposed.
Whatever he was/is, he has worked wonders for the people of Cuba, & is rightly & accordingly adored by them, as well as being admired by millions across the World. quote: So, I don't think of him in the same vein as Saddam Hussein or Kim Il sung. Castro implemented health reforms and education programmes that helped the people. I do not think of him as a despot. But I do believe his ideology deeply flawed, and the supression of the people to be unjustified, and a direct result of the unaccountability that this ideology generates.
Unjust suppression is never justified, but who are we to judge if it's just or not if we haven’t had to face these 600+ assassination attempts, or the 48 years of terrorism & economic warfare. quote: I certainly do not think him or his government can be used as justification that this type of socialism is the answer.
I repeat that your problem with Castro is more to do your political viewpoint than anything else. |
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quote: I really do doubt that, as I don’t think that any respected Human Rights organisation mentions executions or tortures; they criticise things such as cases of detentions without trial (sounds familiar ?), restrictions in freedom of expression & association, & harassment& intimidation of dissidents & activists. And these cases are not in the thousands, or even in the hundreds, but in the dozens at the most per year.
Oh well that makes it alright then. A major problem is that your man Castro has banned all respected human rights organisations from entering Cuba. Amnesty hasn't been allowed onto the island since 1988 and even the International Red Cross is not allowed to in to inspect Cuba's prisons. The only reason Castro could possibly have for doing this is if he's got something to hide. If Bush banned HRW, Amnesty and the ICRC from the US you'd struggle to find the words to express your outrage but as it's Castro you seek to excuse it. Cuba declared a moratorium on executions in 2000. Prior to that human rights organisations were very critical of Cuba. They still are as execution has not been banned outright and could be resumed at anytime. "Unjust suppression is never justified, but who are we to judge if it's just or not if we haven’t had to face these 600+ assassination attempts, or the 48 years of terrorism & economic warfare." That's a really poor attempt to justify the unjustifiable. Once again had it been Bush or Blair you'd go mental. Except of course if they followed the example of your hero you wouldn't be able to get on line to complain and would be quickly arrested if you did. Are you still suggesting your view of Castro isn't affected by your political viewpoint? |
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quote: Oh well that makes it alright then.
No it’s not. But it’s a million miles away from “thousands” of “executions” & “thousands” of cases of “torture” !! quote: A major problem is that your man Castro has banned all respected human rights organisations from entering Cuba. Amnesty hasn't been allowed onto the island since 1988 and even the International Red Cross is not allowed to in to inspect Cuba's prisons. The only reason Castro could possibly have for doing this is if he's got something to hide. If Bush banned HRW, Amnesty and the ICRC from the US you'd struggle to find the words to express your outrage but as it's Castro you seek to excuse it.
Can’t be bothered at the moment to check your “facts”, which experience has shown really do need to be checked. However if it’s true, then yes its bad & wrong, but it still hasn’t stop them from finding enough material for criticism; and perhaps there is another “only reason”, same as with the Weapons Inspectors in Iraq, infiltration by CIA agents, and given the 600 + (!!!!) attempts on his life maybe he’s a little paranoid ! Incidentally, even well know Human Right organisations can have malicious US motivated agendas; Link quote: Cuba declared a moratorium on executions in 2000. Prior to that human rights organisations were very critical of Cuba. They still are as execution has not been banned outright and could be resumed at anytime.
Human Rights Groups oppose the death penalty; hardly unique to Cuba ! quote: That's a really poor attempt to justify the unjustifiable. Once again had it been Bush or Blair you'd go mental. Except of course if they followed the example of your hero you wouldn't be able to get on line to complain and would be quickly arrested if you did.
A) The “unjustifiable” has not been substantiated. B) Do you think it was wrong to execute Lord Haw Haw ? quote: Are you still suggesting your view of Castro isn't affected by your political viewpoint?
Hardly, but my commonsense will not allow illogical or unproven “facts” to influence my beliefs. |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thewitchisback:
normal spouting of rhetoric and US anti-Castro propaganda.-
_________________________________
Mmmmm lets twiddle with your quote alittle=
normal spouting of rhetoric and Castro anti-US propaganda.-
You've been full of it today.
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quote: Originally posted by Fil2: quote: I really do doubt that, as I don’t think that any respected Human Rights organisation mentions executions or tortures; they criticise things such as cases of detentions without trial (sounds familiar ?), restrictions in freedom of expression & association, & harassment& intimidation of dissidents & activists. And these cases are not in the thousands, or even in the hundreds, but in the dozens at the most per year.
Oh well that makes it alright then. A major problem is that your man Castro has banned all respected human rights organisations from entering Cuba. Amnesty hasn't been allowed onto the island since 1988 and even the International Red Cross is not allowed to in to inspect Cuba's prisons. The only reason Castro could possibly have for doing this is if he's got something to hide. If Bush banned HRW, Amnesty and the ICRC from the US you'd struggle to find the words to express your outrage but as it's Castro you seek to excuse it. Cuba declared a moratorium on executions in 2000. Prior to that human rights organisations were very critical of Cuba. They still are as execution has not been banned outright and could be resumed at anytime. "Unjust suppression is never justified, but who are we to judge if it's just or not if we haven’t had to face these 600+ assassination attempts, or the 48 years of terrorism & economic warfare." That's a really poor attempt to justify the unjustifiable. Once again had it been Bush or Blair you'd go mental. Except of course if they followed the example of your hero you wouldn't be able to get on line to complain and would be quickly arrested if you did. Are you still suggesting your view of Castro isn't affected by your political viewpoint?
O lordy, a Slam dunk as Turk would say. Only a puggled extreme leftie can make dreadful excuses for that. |
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quote: Originally posted by gt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thewitchisback:
normal spouting of rhetoric and US anti-Castro propaganda.-
_________________________________
Mmmmm lets twiddle with your quote alittle=
normal spouting of rhetoric and Castro anti-US propaganda.-
You've been full of it today.
 Which country has an organisation called the CIA? Which country has the Cuban prison population released by Castro running the Mafia from Miami? Which country supports the White supremacists once sent to prison for crimes in Cuba? Castro did not execute them despite your propaganda claims to the contrary, he showed leniency and humility. It is guv Bush who stands accused of mocking a child before executing her along with so many other documented killings! |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zabbs:
You really are quite in love with one set of injustice but completely ignore another. You really should take the blinkers off and take a more holistic approach to world espionage and politics, its all corrupt.
However, I'd still rather live in a western democracy so I have the freedom to type verbiage and listen to your Marxist ravings.
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quote: Originally posted by gt:
You really are quite in love with one set of injustice but completely ignore another. You really should take the blinkers off and take a more holistic approach to world espionage and politics, its all corrupt.
However, I'd still rather live in a western democracy so I have the freedom to type verbiage and listen to your Marxist ravings.
Marxist ravings?? All I have done is point out your failings. Time after time you have attacked Castro as the great satan of America when there are several who are far worse. Castro has gone, get over it. You should be shaking at the prospect of crazy hanging-guv Bush's dynasty who are all being groomed for presidency now! Much more empire building and many more nations to be driven back to the stone age, his words not mine. |
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quote: Originally posted by Zabbs:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gt:
You really are quite in love with one set of injustice but completely ignore another. You really should take the blinkers off and take a more holistic approach to world espionage and politics, its all corrupt.
However, I'd still rather live in a western democracy so I have the freedom to type verbiage and listen to your Marxist ravings.
Marxist ravings?? All I have done is point out your failings. Time after time you have attacked Castro as the great satan of America when there are several who are far worse. ----------------------- Sorry I never ever quoted "great satan of America" you just did that now. Your misquoting me. I merely point out a sense of balance and being able to see beyond anti- American tendencies. |
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quote: Originally posted by gt:
Sorry I never ever quoted "great satan of America" you just did that now. Your misquoting me.
I merely point out a sense of balance and being able to see beyond anti- American tendencies.
On misquoting you, I never stated you did! Your posts had no balance apart from the fact that you only hated Galloway and Castro equally. Whereas I only despise Bush for what he did to me and mine! Pretty unMarxist really. |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zabbs:
Oh, so we're both opposite ends of the spectrum then. Except I've admitted corruption as a global obvious fact regardless of ideology.
You only rally against America and it gets so boring.
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"gt" the thread polluting curse strikes again ! If I asked you only to post when you have something either meaningful, or constructive, or informative, or interesting, or funny, or witty, or amusing, etc, then you wouldn't be able to post at all ! Bliss ! (& Bless !) So good I had to say it twice ! You should chill out gt, take a holiday; try Cuba, its safer and friendlier than Miami. you meet a lot nicer class of Cubans too..  |
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quote: Originally posted by gt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zabbs:
Oh, so we're both opposite ends of the spectrum then. Except I've admitted corruption as a global obvious fact regardless of ideology.
You only rally against America and it gets so boring.
I hope you're not upsetting people gt. I'd hate to think you're saying things like 'you can't produce any proof the Americans had nuclear weapons in Tuzla' and they're not able to prove you wrong.  |
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quote: Originally posted by Thewitchisback: quote: Originally posted by Ms Stoosh:
Witch I'm not denying anything you said above ... I said "not necessarily" (meaning not always the way the "typical" baddy does it)
Glad you ARE aware, Mrs Stoosh, that we (the US and/or UK) are often the actual perpetrators of some quite horrific and inhumane actions against other human beings, and, if we are not perpetrating them, we are often bankrolling them.
very aware witch |
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