I have the power to drop posts down the board by one hour.

Whats going on mods?

Can you put me in BST please?

quote:

Originally posted by Brickshu:
Good hard hitting point. These cowboy cultures have come in to existence during the past 200 plus years or so...China has an ancient culture and a governence system that the Chinese prefer. Capitalism is suited for WEstern nations as it practices restrictions on non Western nations when it comes to "free" trade. Hence, the control of wealth to stay at the top.

Glad China is big enough to take on the bully boys of the world.

Exactly, Africa is in a complete mess, that's thanks free trade and "western controlled" IMF and world bank.

quote:

Originally posted by joshgin:

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:

Right, so not having any human right protections, safe conditions for workers or protections against abuse by employers is "good"?

Eh?

China is a developing country, these things will come in time. Did we have these in the 1930s ... your are not comparing like with like.

Forget trying to explain joshgin. Some people can only measure by their own yardstick. Two bloody wars before Europe came to where it is. And the last war China managed to reclaim itself from the clutches of Western and Japanese imperialism, and now they want China to suddenly adopt European way of doing things. As well as carve up China by redefining what constitutes a Chinese by western standards.

quote:

Originally posted by lividoflondon:
Your dreamland of there being no borders and everyone being able live free from any government control is just naïve. Britain is still an empire made up of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. According to you they can just declare independence anytime they fancy. If Wales had decided to use the fact that we were too busy fighting the Germans during the second world war to declare independence, we would be in our rights to go back in to reclaim our domain after the war was over.

So is it just China that's allowed to occupy places and tell the inhabitants "Sorry, you don't run your own lives now. You'll do as we say and live as we tell you to live"?

Or would it be okay for Britain to reoccupy Ireland? Maybe we should take back Normandy too?

Should the Danes or the Swedes be allowed to take back control of Norway?

Should the Turks be allowed to take back their "rightful property" in Greece?

Are you telling me that you honestly believe the British army would prevent a Scottish referendum on independence?

Do you know anything about anything?

There is only one question which really matters, livid: Do the Tibetans want to be part of China?

No one else's opinion is relevant.

quote:

Originally posted by jackyjacky:
You spent three months in Tibet, only found such little evidence to criticise the Chinese government, what a loser!
Let me tell you something:
First, you use “One victim of torture” as your evidence, why don’t you interview a terrorist who has just been released by the CIA from oversea prisons? It’s possible that one of the oversea prisons is located in Britain.
Second, you criticise the China “One-child policy”. I think the “One-child policy” is the biggest contribution the Chinese government has made to the whole world. Thanks to the “One-child policy”, China only has 1.3 billon people now. Otherwise, the figure may reach 1.6 or 1.8 billon now. Don’t criticise the Chinese if some of them (ten million, hundred million?) immigrate to Britain. In addition, the “One-child policy” does not apply in Tibet, it only applies in other part of China.
Third, you mentioned if someone in Tibet say “free Tibet”, then they will be arrested. Why don’t you go to London street, say “Long live Bin Laden”, see what will happen.
Fourth, you said no foreign journalist is allowed in Tibet. From the past few weeks’ media report, it is clear that the foreign journalist is only not allowed to enter Tibet from March 14 to March 27 (or 28) because of the recent Tibet riots. Why you lie here?

Finally, one advice to you. Next time, if you want to criticise the Chinese Government, find some hard evidence. If you can’t find anything, make some, just as what the CNN and BBC did in the past few weeks. But I bet you wont’ get any funding to support your next investigation since you just ruined your opportunity.

Hello jackyjacky. Are you yet another brand new Chinese "contributor" or one of the old one's recycled?

There is endless evidence of torture and human rights abuses in China. Yes, some dodgy things happen elsewhere but exactly how many people do you think the CIA has tortured? And just look at how much trouble the issue has caused in the US and elsewhere. Meanwhile the Chinese regime just continues and no one is allowed to complain.

As for someone saying "Long live bin Laden" in the street in London, it's very unlikely anything would happen. You only have to look at the march a couple of years ago where people were openly calling for beheadings and not very much happened.

Your analogy is not valid anyway. Calling for Tibetan independence is far more analagous to calling for Scottish or Welsh independence. And guess what? It's allowed here. Not only that, we're allowed to vote for separatist political parties if we want. Believe it or not the Scottish government is currently being run by such a party

No one is lying about foreign journalists being allowed to enter Tibet. Look at the website of any news organisation for goodness sake. The Chinese government removed the foreign journalists already present and banned any more from entering. For example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7302625.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7307382.stm

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/b8de8e6...3631/id/338586/cs/1/

It was not until the 26th March that China agreed to let some foreign journalists enter the region - after the main protests and after Chinese police and soldiers had flooded into the area. But even then it was only a small number of reporters, from agencies the Chinese selected (the BBC and CNN weren't included for example) and they were escorted around specific sites instead of having free access.

Finally here's some advice for YOU:

• This is a free country, we can say what we want even if you or the Chinese government don't like it
  
  
• If the people of Tibet tell us they are being persecuted by the Chinese government then we will most certainly pay attention, particularly when there so much evidence for it
  
  
• I will not listen to the one-sided coverage presented by a government with an obsession about information control. If they have nothing to hide why are they preventing foreign journalists from freely reporting what is going on and why are they restricting access to news sites to ordinary Chinese people?

I suggest you direct your accusations of lying at the people in the Chinese government who think they have the right to control other peoples' lives and then try to prevent anyone from discussing it.

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:
China doesn't have a "claim" to anything. Nor do we. No one has the right to tell another group of people how to live and what they can and can't do.

Americans of European decent pretty much tell native Americans what to do. Australians of European decent pretty much tell the Aborigines what to do. If either of those groups requested to carve out a country for themselves, do you think that's going to happen. Not a chance!

I see you're still trying to excuse China's behaviour by shifting attention to your favourite hate figure, the USA.

By all means, criticise the US. The native Americans were well and truly screwed.

But what you still seem incapable of getting through your skull is that this does not provide everybody else with an excuse to repeat the crime.

If you hate the USA then attack them, not innocent Tibetans who have done nothing to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Brickshu:
Anglo Saxons still think that they own the world, in reality, most of the powers that be are scraping the barrel......The East has risen, like a breath of fresh air !!!!!

I can clearly say that about cricket, in the past, Aus & England dictated terms like the old colonial masters. Now, India has massive wealth, it basically controld the game. The Indians cricket board has 75% of the wealth that is generated by cricket.

Bring on the changes....

If you hate us so much why do you live here?

You do live here, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:
China doesn't have a "claim" to anything. Nor do we. No one has the right to tell another group of people how to live and what they can and can't do.

Americans of European decent pretty much tell native Americans what to do. Australians of European decent pretty much tell the Aborigines what to do. If either of those groups requested to carve out a country for themselves, do you think that's going to happen. Not a chance!

I see you're still trying to excuse China's behaviour by shifting attention to your favourite hate figure, the USA.

By all means, criticise the US. The native Americans were well and truly screwed.

But what you still seem incapable of getting through your skull is that this does not provide everybody else with an excuse to repeat the crime.

If you hate the USA then attack them, not innocent Tibetans who have done nothing to you.

Oh please, your line of reasoning is so pathetic! Of course it's relevent. What gives you the right to judge what is a Chinese and not? The Chinese constitutes 56 different ethnic groups. What gives one ethnic group more rights than the other. Stop JUDGING CULTURES BY WESTERN STANDARDS! And if I bring USA in, you say irrelevent!

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:
Oh please, your line of reasoning is so pathetic! Of course it's relevent. What gives you the right to judge what is a Chinese and not? The Chinese constitutes 56 different ethnic groups. What gives one ethnic group more rights than the other. Stop JUDGING CULTURES BY WESTERN STANDARDS! And if I bring USA in, you say irrelevent!

Heujas, I'm not judging anything. The Tibetans themselves are telling us they don't want to be part of China.

And for the hundredth time, I'm not saying the USA is irrelevant, I'm just saying that it's not an excuse - they're both wrong. Can't you understand that? Do I need to use words of one syllable?

quote:

which was left behind a long time ago.

last year the ruling communist party put both marxist leninism and maoism as its basis for action in paragraph 2 of its constitution as ratified by its conference in september.

its on their own website.

To Optimus Maximus:

first, you desire to have a free world is great. I agree that. Then lets see the real picture and why Chinese will never let Tibet to free.

1. China have 56 ethnic groups. most of them live mixed in the western part of China. Please see the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_prefecture. This only the list of large autonomous prefectures, not mention hundreds of small ones. If China agree to tibeten, then what about the other groups? what they want? China can easily into Chaos of racial problems.

2. Free tibet? whats the size of tibet they are after? They asking for 1/4 of chinese soil. include Sichuan, QingHai,Gangsu, which contains nearly 200 million people there with about 20 ethnic groups and they are part of China for 2000 years. What they do? Move to the east? Just because about 20000 or 30000 tibeten live overseas claim they own tibet? I know you will say how tibeten live in China say. I can tell you most tibeten are happy with the live they are having as I been in Tibet five times. There is only about 1% tibeten people not happy about the situation because the wealth gap.

3. The root of this roit is because the wealth gap, that is caused by China allow too much freedom for people doing business in China.(I think its a mistake) Many Hans benefit from the economic boom in eastern China started to explore the business opportunity in western China, where is not largely developed in last 30 years. And native tibeten, which dont have a deep culture of study like Han Chinese or they dont have the education system ready, is easily leave behind. It happens not just for tibeten, it happens to lots of ethnic groups in the western China. This will change as China developing the western China heavily now.

4. One child policy is only apply to HAN chinese.(very unfair),other ethnic groups allow to have two or more children depends on local policy. In fact, other ethnic groups has more privilege than Han chinese. Many Han chinese are trying to convert theirself to other ethnic groups and enjoy the benefit. hehe!!

5. Dalai Lama is funded by CIA long time ago. Just search studies on google. China dont blame US without any reasons. In fact that US is always serve their country's own right on top of other counties'. So US will use any power or chance to eliminate any country which is possible to become the superpower. China is just a victim. Also dont think tibet is not related to US financial crisis. China holds the biggest treasury bonds.(Means US live on money borrowed from China). Its just a battle between US and China, just different forms.US use religion and so called democracy. Chinese use economic power.

6.BTW, Chinese is one of the most efficient people in the world. Just see how we deal the Chunyun, floods, typhoon. China been hit by natural disaster every year without little help from western. But China has managed very well so far.

so.. learn some facts and understand the whole picture first. Saying human right or democracy is not bad. Most of Chinese understand that, just because its not the right time for China yet. China needs stable society to resolve the problems and move on.

quote:

Do I need to use words of one syllable

you have to think of the pro china posters like north korean border guards. orders is orders.

quote:

just because its not the right time for China yet.

marxist leninism is arrogant. it says people are too stupid for freedom. marxist leninism can only be maintained by repression and lies.

quote:

Originally posted by concertpianist:

quote:

just because its not the right time for China yet.

marxist leninism is arrogant. it says people are too stupid for freedom. marxist leninism can only be maintained by repression and lies.

that is exactly why you dont understand Chinese. Ask your chinese friend if they understand marxist leninism. I am a Chinese and I cant understand. In fact its in our constitution and cant change is because the history issue with the old communist leaders still alive and we need pay their respect and believe. Nobody in China believe much of this now, only happen to have in our education book doesnt mean we believe it. hehe.... something interesting ohh?

the majority never believe in it which is why it must be maintained by repression and media silence.

the old soviets were the same. look how happy people were when the berlin wall came down. after which it was revealed how a huge organisation there was spying on the people.

marxist leninism is not maintained by respect but by denying freedom and the gulag system.

quote:

Originally posted by scott906:
To Optimus Maximus:

first, you desire to have a free world is great. I agree that. Then lets see the real picture and why Chinese will never let Tibet to free.

Point 1:
I'm well aware of China's ethnic mix and had in fact already read that wikipedia entry. I can certainly understand why the Chinese authorities don't want Tibet to have its freedom and why other countries with similar issues might look the other way.

Doesn't make it right though does it?

Point 2:
Depends on whether they want the whole of historical Tibet or just the TAR. Of course they whole point is that they're saying it's *not* Chinese soil. It's also worth noting that not all Tibetan's voicing dissent are asking for complete independence - some are only asking for more autonomy within a Chinese framework.

Incidentally there are more like 200,000 Tibetan refugees living outside Tibet and it's very obvious from the recent protests and from other events over the last few decades that plenty of people *within* Tibet have also tried to express their dissatisfaction, but that tends to result in a prison sentence.

Point 3:
Yes, I'm willing to accept that there's a lot of truth in that, but I don't see it as an excuse for trampling the rights of Tibetans.

Point 4:
I haven't commented on the one-child policy actually. I can see why it was implemented and why people are unhappy with it. What can I say China has an unusual, although not unique, problem in that regard.

Point 5:
I really don't care one way or the other about the Dalai Lama and I'm not going to bother googling on CIA links - all I'd find was the usual fictional gibberish, even if there was any truth in it. The only issue I care about here is the right of ordinary Tibetans to decide for themselves. If they want to live as Chinese that's fine, if they want to live in a backward religious state that's fine too. It should be their decision.

Point 6:
As to the efficiency of the Chinese people or otherwise, I'm not going to argue. A couple of people on here seem to think I'm somehow "anti-Chinese" but they are wrong. I think there is a great deal to be admired there and I'd absolutely love to visit one day.

My criticism of China's policy on Tibet doesn't make me anti-Chinese any more than my repeated criticisms of my own government make me anti-British.

quote:

Originally posted by scott906:

quote:

Originally posted by concertpianist:

quote:

just because its not the right time for China yet.

marxist leninism is arrogant. it says people are too stupid for freedom. marxist leninism can only be maintained by repression and lies.

that is exactly why you dont understand Chinese. Ask your chinese friend if they understand marxist leninism. I am a Chinese and I cant understand. In fact its in our constitution and cant change is because the history issue with the old communist leaders still alive and we need pay their respect and believe. Nobody in China believe much of this now, only happen to have in our education book doesnt mean we believe it. hehe.... something interesting ohh?

Hi Scott

Very good intro and I am glad you bothered to take the time to make it and I am sure that many readers will be grateful to learn the facts.

Dont expect any sudden conversions from the forums most strident moralistic critics however, as they are as intent on selling their notions of Democacy and Human Rights with the same dogmatic zeal that their forefathers sold Opium and the Bible

quote:

Originally posted by concertpianist:
the majority never believe in it which is why it must be maintained by repression and media silence.

the old soviets were the same. look how happy people were when the berlin wall came down. after which it was revealed how a huge organisation there was spying on the people.

marxist leninism is not maintained by respect but by denying freedom and the gulag system.

Yes, will be changed when our generation is grown up enough to manage the country. that is the goal of 2050. When China will be a developed country and start to adopt democracy. At the moment, the old leaders are still believe it. although they are not in real power now, but they have a great influence to the current leader. so better not change it to cause more problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Sampanviking:
Dont expect any sudden conversions from the forums most strident moralistic critics however, as they are as intent on selling their notions of Democacy and Human Rights with the same dogmatic zeal that their forefathers sold Opium and the Bible

My forefathers were engineers and farmers, but I will take neither blame nor credit for their hard work

quote:

Originally posted by scott906:
Yes, will be changed when our generation is grown up enough to manage the country. that is the goal of 2050. When China will be a developed country and start to adopt democracy. At the moment, the old leaders are still believe it. although they are not in real power now, but they have a great influence to the current leader. so better not change it to cause more problem.

You really think it'll take that long?

quote:

Originally posted by lividoflondon:
Just watching the preview tells you all you need to know about the level of journalism for this program. I don’t think the general public are fooled by it however. Tibetan campaigners have pretty much shot themselves in the foot when they passionately attack the Chinese government for using force to restore order but are near silence when they are asked about the violence committed by Tibetans on the Chinese and Muslim minorities. This double standard hasn’t escaped the British public and the more we they try and highjack the Olympics to make their point, the more people will start to said “Yes, you’ve made your point. Can we now move on?”

I am actually quite (pleasently) surprised by how many people have had no trouble in recognising that tripe for what it was. Its a definite change for the better from the position not to many years ago.

Maybe Blairs WMD scam finally opened more peoples eyes than most have realised. Its very reassuring for the prospects for a better future.