quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:
I don't expect anything to change anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't pressure them to improve.

quote:

Originally posted by RedEye00:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by scott906:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:

quote:

Originally posted by lividoflondon:
If the Scots decided to stage a violent uprising, I’m sure the British army would definitely be ordered in to regain control with any doubt.

We don't need to stage a violent uprising. We have the vote.

Do you understand the difference yet?

Has Scottish independence been achived by Scottish nationalist? No! NEXT!

Look through all your arguments regards independent. I am afraid Optimus you are really make your point. But please focus on the reality. If the world works like that. That wont be a peaceful world. If a certain race not feels good for being into a certain country, what they do? We want independent, we want a country only have our race. If the country not allow, we fight, we fight for our right! We want a war, we will beaten the strongers. Yeppy.. in your scenario, it’s perfect OK. But in reality, its a long and bloody process and who suffer??? The ordinary people who just want a normal life, a job, a family and a house. Also place like Scotland, Tibet which is directly connected to the UK or China and has a long history of belong to the country. They will never able to independent. They will only have something called autonomous system which Scotland and Tibet is already.

Well written scott906. Ordinary folk want stability first and foremost and it seems vain for some to automatically assume all Tibetans are oppressed and want independence.

The problem with those who take the moral high ground over Tibet forget that Northern Ireland went through years of violence and still never achieved independence despite the fact we in the UK have the 'cough' so-called "vote". The Protestants are still there and anybody from England can still migrate into Northern Ireland and there's nothing the Catholics can do about it. So China's system is no different from ours even though we have the illusion of the "vote".

Well I'm glad your arguing for China et al if this is the sort of stuff you always come up with..

You think that people in England could care less about Northern Ireland. If they want to stay part of the UK that's fine, if not, then they can vote to leave anytime there's a majority.

Please, continue your unbridled support for dictatorships. Please spout some more stuff about American Indians, etc

quote:

Originally posted by RedEye00:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by scott906:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:

quote:

Originally posted by lividoflondon:
If the Scots decided to stage a violent uprising, I’m sure the British army would definitely be ordered in to regain control with any doubt.

We don't need to stage a violent uprising. We have the vote.

Do you understand the difference yet?

Has Scottish independence been achived by Scottish nationalist? No! NEXT!

Look through all your arguments regards independent. I am afraid Optimus you are really make your point. But please focus on the reality. If the world works like that. That wont be a peaceful world. If a certain race not feels good for being into a certain country, what they do? We want independent, we want a country only have our race. If the country not allow, we fight, we fight for our right! We want a war, we will beaten the strongers. Yeppy.. in your scenario, it’s perfect OK. But in reality, its a long and bloody process and who suffer??? The ordinary people who just want a normal life, a job, a family and a house. Also place like Scotland, Tibet which is directly connected to the UK or China and has a long history of belong to the country. They will never able to independent. They will only have something called autonomous system which Scotland and Tibet is already.

Well written scott906. Ordinary folk want stability first and foremost and it seems vain for some to automatically assume all Tibetans are oppressed and want independence.

The problem with those who take the moral high ground over Tibet forget that Northern Ireland went through years of violence and still never achieved independence despite the fact we in the UK have the 'cough' so-called "vote". The Protestants are still there and anybody from England can still migrate into Northern Ireland and there's nothing the Catholics can do about it. So China's system is no different from ours even though we have the illusion of the "vote".

Well I'm glad your arguing for China et al if this is the sort of stuff you always come up with..

You think that people in England could care less about Northern Ireland. If they want to stay part of the UK that's fine, if not, then they can vote to leave anytime there's a majority.

Please, continue your unbridled support for dictatorships. Please spout some more stuff about American Indians, etc

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:
Indeed. He/she could emigrate to China, land of the free.

quote:

Originally posted by joshgin:

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:
I don't expect anything to change anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't pressure them to improve.

It's arrogant of the UK to think we have the right to tell others how to run their counties. When we are perfect then we can "pressure them to improve" It would enrage us if someone told us what we should and shouldn't do.

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:

quote:

Originally posted by RedEye00:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by scott906:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:

quote:

Originally posted by lividoflondon:
If the Scots decided to stage a violent uprising, I’m sure the British army would definitely be ordered in to regain control with any doubt.

We don't need to stage a violent uprising. We have the vote.

Do you understand the difference yet?

Has Scottish independence been achived by Scottish nationalist? No! NEXT!

Look through all your arguments regards independent. I am afraid Optimus you are really make your point. But please focus on the reality. If the world works like that. That wont be a peaceful world. If a certain race not feels good for being into a certain country, what they do? We want independent, we want a country only have our race. If the country not allow, we fight, we fight for our right! We want a war, we will beaten the strongers. Yeppy.. in your scenario, it’s perfect OK. But in reality, its a long and bloody process and who suffer??? The ordinary people who just want a normal life, a job, a family and a house. Also place like Scotland, Tibet which is directly connected to the UK or China and has a long history of belong to the country. They will never able to independent. They will only have something called autonomous system which Scotland and Tibet is already.

Well written scott906. Ordinary folk want stability first and foremost and it seems vain for some to automatically assume all Tibetans are oppressed and want independence.

The problem with those who take the moral high ground over Tibet forget that Northern Ireland went through years of violence and still never achieved independence despite the fact we in the UK have the 'cough' so-called "vote". The Protestants are still there and anybody from England can still migrate into Northern Ireland and there's nothing the Catholics can do about it. So China's system is no different from ours even though we have the illusion of the "vote".

Well I'm glad your arguing for China et al if this is the sort of stuff you always come up with..

You think that people in England could care less about Northern Ireland. If they want to stay part of the UK that's fine, if not, then they can vote to leave anytime there's a majority.

Please, continue your unbridled support for dictatorships. Please spout some more stuff about American Indians, etc

Indeed. He/she could emigrate to China, land of the free.

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:

quote:

Originally posted by scott906:
To Optimus Maximus:

first, you desire to have a free world is great. I agree that. Then lets see the real picture and why Chinese will never let Tibet to free.

Point 1:
I'm well aware of China's ethnic mix and had in fact already read that wikipedia entry. I can certainly understand why the Chinese authorities don't want Tibet to have its freedom and why other countries with similar issues might look the other way.

Doesn't make it right though does it?

Point 2:
Depends on whether they want the whole of historical Tibet or just the TAR. Of course they whole point is that they're saying it's *not* Chinese soil. It's also worth noting that not all Tibetan's voicing dissent are asking for complete independence - some are only asking for more autonomy within a Chinese framework.

Incidentally there are more like 200,000 Tibetan refugees living outside Tibet and it's very obvious from the recent protests and from other events over the last few decades that plenty of people *within* Tibet have also tried to express their dissatisfaction, but that tends to result in a prison sentence.

Point 3:
Yes, I'm willing to accept that there's a lot of truth in that, but I don't see it as an excuse for trampling the rights of Tibetans.

Point 4:
I haven't commented on the one-child policy actually. I can see why it was implemented and why people are unhappy with it. What can I say China has an unusual, although not unique, problem in that regard.

Point 5:
I really don't care one way or the other about the Dalai Lama and I'm not going to bother googling on CIA links - all I'd find was the usual fictional gibberish, even if there was any truth in it. The only issue I care about here is the right of ordinary Tibetans to decide for themselves. If they want to live as Chinese that's fine, if they want to live in a backward religious state that's fine too. It should be their decision.

Point 6:
As to the efficiency of the Chinese people or otherwise, I'm not going to argue. A couple of people on here seem to think I'm somehow "anti-Chinese" but they are wrong. I think there is a great deal to be admired there and I'd absolutely love to visit one day.

My criticism of China's policy on Tibet doesn't make me anti-Chinese any more than my repeated criticisms of my own government make me anti-British.

quote:

Originally posted by Optimus Maximus:
Two questions:

1 - Should all Tibetans be punished for the actions of a few?

2 - How else can the Tibetans protest, when even discussing independence in public can land you in jail?

quote:

Originally posted by MRTIBBS.:
Dont the Americans tell us what to do.

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:
Indeed. He/she could emigrate to China, land of the free.

Nothing useful to add or perhaps just your soundbites.

quote:

Chinese paramilitary police have killed eight people after opening fire on several hundred Tibetan monks and villagers in bloody violence that will fuel human rights protests as London prepares to host its leg of the Olympic torch relay this weekend.

Witnesses said the clash – in which dozens were wounded – erupted late last night after a government inspection team entered a monastery in the Chinese province of Sichuan trying to confiscate pictures of the Dalai Lama.

quote:

Originally posted by Louboutin:
Exclusive: Chinese police kill eight after opening fire on monks and Tibet protesters

quote:

Chinese paramilitary police have killed eight people after opening fire on several hundred Tibetan monks and villagers in bloody violence that will fuel human rights protests as London prepares to host its leg of the Olympic torch relay this weekend.

Witnesses said the clash – in which dozens were wounded – erupted late last night after a government inspection team entered a monastery in the Chinese province of Sichuan trying to confiscate pictures of the Dalai Lama.

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:
Indeed. He/she could emigrate to China, land of the free.

Nothing useful to add or perhaps just your soundbites.

Nope, just friendly advice. If China is better than UK then go there. Simple really. Apply to Chinese Embassy for visa etc., etc...

quote:

Without any solid proof it's the usual hearsay and rumor as usual.

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:
Indeed. He/she could emigrate to China, land of the free.

Nothing useful to add or perhaps just your soundbites.

Nope, just friendly advice. If China is better than UK then go there. Simple really. Apply to Chinese Embassy for visa etc., etc...

Hmm, somebody deleted my post.

Since you're so concerened, why don't you. China doesn't mess with our internal politics, just as we don't mess with theirs.

quote:

Originally posted by Fil2:

quote:

Without any solid proof it's the usual hearsay and rumor as usual.

Perhaps you prefer the official version from the Chinese state news agency. I'm sure that's objective and unbiased.

quote:

Tibetans aren't as peaceful as they make themselves out to be.

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:

quote:

Originally posted by heujas:

quote:

Originally posted by nursery cryme:
Indeed. He/she could emigrate to China, land of the free.

Nothing useful to add or perhaps just your soundbites.

Nope, just friendly advice. If China is better than UK then go there. Simple really. Apply to Chinese Embassy for visa etc., etc...

Hmm, somebody deleted my post.

Since you're so concerened, why don't you. China doesn't mess with our internal politics, just as we don't mess with theirs.

Nah! I'm quite happy where I am, where I value my freedoms and way of life.

quote:

Originally posted by Fil2:

quote:

Tibetans aren't as peaceful as they make themselves out to be.

Indeed not but then the Chinese authorities have never been slow to stifle dissent in their own country let alone Tibet.