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quote: Originally posted by ijaz:
PS as regards to Muhammad having not clarifying the message, this is not true, because Muhammad only followed the Quran and told believers to do the same, however, people did the opposite and started worshiping him, instead of God..
And your proof for this is what? What brand of muslim considers Muhammad divine pray tell? The Shahadah makes it extremely clear the Muhammad is merely the messenger of God as all muslims know. |
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quote: Originally posted by logician: Tankapo: How can we say that you are wrong when you are not? You pointed out rightly that quote:
it must translated into ACTION in a form approvable by EVERYONE
Statistically, if 0.001% of the total lot taken it wrong then we should not consider this to be "EVERYONE". What would you like to say that this 0.001% (or less) have blessings of the 75% of the west (most of the time)?
Ahhh, but you see, here is the problem with any religion which try to present its case as REPRESENTATIVE of the "ALMIGHTY" God..... "God", as folks of "monolithic" religion always tell us, is "supernatural", his/her wisedom so vast, so great, and so amazing that this wisdom of God can guide EVERYONE (and yes, that's 100.000000000000% of the human population!!!!!) into "good life". Therefore, if even 1 person out of current 1 billion Muslim population fails to act in a way that is according to the text of God, Quran, (see, you are trying too hard (!!) to claim that Quran "IS" the text from "almighty" God!), then the Quran can be dismissed as a text from God, if we want to accept its creater as "supernatural" being who is "truly above and beyond" ANY human wickedness. I wounder, did "God" really created humans at all??? If (s)he did, why is (s)he having such a "hard time" trying to get us to "receive message" and just "get it".....???? |
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quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by ijaz:
PS as regards to Muhammad having not clarifying the message, this is not true, because Muhammad only followed the Quran and told believers to do the same, however, people did the opposite and started worshiping him, instead of God..
And your proof for this is what? What brand of muslim considers Muhammad divine pray tell? The Shahadah makes it extremely clear the Muhammad is merely the messenger of God as all muslims know.
Peace (Salaam) thenegus, The Muslim's I am talking about are the Sunni's which are in Majority.. The name itself signifies its content, Sunni means doings and sayings of Muhammad.. Following is the verse where Muhammd was told to follow Quran and his people; Quran: The Ultimate Reference [5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed. The following verse specificaly orders us not to call anyone else's name beside God in the places of worship, regardless of this all Sunni call upon Muhammad in there Salat in the places of worship; [72:18] The places of worship belong to GOD; do not call on anyone else beside GOD. Sunni's follow Hadith and Sunna, doings and saying of Muhammad, while 5:48, clearly states to follow Quran and God.. By putting Muhammad beside God in your shahada your are making distinction between prophets while Quran states otherwise; No Distinction Among God's Messengers [2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters." You are saying that you do this because he was the final messenger, however, Quran states that he was final prophet but not final messenger; Not The Final Messenger* [33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things. Is that enough to convince you that Sunni's have made Muhammad divine.. Or shell I carry on.. Regards |
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quote: Originally posted by ijaz: quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by ijaz:
PS as regards to Muhammad having not clarifying the message, this is not true, because Muhammad only followed the Quran and told believers to do the same, however, people did the opposite and started worshiping him, instead of God..
And your proof for this is what? What brand of muslim considers Muhammad divine pray tell? The Shahadah makes it extremely clear the Muhammad is merely the messenger of God as all muslims know.
Peace (Salaam) thenegus, The Muslim's I am talking about are the Sunni's which are in Majority.. The name itself signifies its content, Sunni means doings and sayings of Muhammad.. Following is the verse where Muhammd was told to follow Quran and his people; Quran: The Ultimate Reference [5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed. The following verse specificaly orders us not to call anyone else's name beside God in the places of worship, regardless of this all Sunni call upon Muhammad in there Salat in the places of worship; [72:18] The places of worship belong to GOD; do not call on anyone else beside GOD. Sunni's follow Hadith and Sunna, doings and saying of Muhammad, while 5:48, clearly states to follow Quran and God.. By putting Muhammad beside God in your shahada your are making distinction between prophets while Quran states otherwise; No Distinction Among God's Messengers [2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters." You are saying that you do this because he was the final messenger, however, Quran states that he was final prophet but not final messenger; Not The Final Messenger* [33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things. Is that enough to convince you that Sunni's have made Muhammad divine.. Or shell I carry on.. Regards
*Sigh So you accuse all sunnis of worshiping muhammed. That includes me I suppose  . From your quotes about Muhammed not being the final Messenger of God I assume you're an Ahmadiyah which explains a lot. |
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quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by ijaz: quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by ijaz:
PS as regards to Muhammad having not clarifying the message, this is not true, because Muhammad only followed the Quran and told believers to do the same, however, people did the opposite and started worshiping him, instead of God..
And your proof for this is what? What brand of muslim considers Muhammad divine pray tell? The Shahadah makes it extremely clear the Muhammad is merely the messenger of God as all muslims know.
Peace (Salaam) thenegus, The Muslim's I am talking about are the Sunni's which are in Majority.. The name itself signifies its content, Sunni means doings and sayings of Muhammad.. Following is the verse where Muhammd was told to follow Quran and his people; Quran: The Ultimate Reference [5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed. The following verse specificaly orders us not to call anyone else's name beside God in the places of worship, regardless of this all Sunni call upon Muhammad in there Salat in the places of worship; [72:18] The places of worship belong to GOD; do not call on anyone else beside GOD. Sunni's follow Hadith and Sunna, doings and saying of Muhammad, while 5:48, clearly states to follow Quran and God.. By putting Muhammad beside God in your shahada your are making distinction between prophets while Quran states otherwise; No Distinction Among God's Messengers [2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters." You are saying that you do this because he was the final messenger, however, Quran states that he was final prophet but not final messenger; Not The Final Messenger* [33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things. Is that enough to convince you that Sunni's have made Muhammad divine.. Or shell I carry on.. Regards
*Sigh So you accuse all sunnis of worshiping muhammed. That includes me I suppose . From your quotes about Muhammed not being the final Messenger of God I assume you're an Ahmadiyah which explains a lot.
No I am not Ahmadiyah, and I do not know who they are, I am a Muslim and I do not believe in sects, My Shahada is "There is no god besides God".. enough about me, how come you are evading the answer to what I said, have you varified in the Quran about what I said, I might be telling you fibs.. [2:163] Your god is one god; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. [6:106] Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, there is no god except He, and disregard the idol worshipers. Religious Sects Condemned [6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done. [13:30] We have sent you to this community, just as we did for other communities in the past. You shall recite to them what we reveal to you, for they have disbelieved in the Most Gracious. Say, "He is my Lord. There is no god except He. I put my trust in Him alone; to Him is my ultimate destiny." Sectarianism Condemned [30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have. |
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quote: Originally posted by ijaz:
All religions of the world - Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and others - have been severly corrupted through innovations, traditions, and the idolization of humans such as the prophets and the saints..
Not a religious person, but I consider the above statement a bit of an insult to all religions (especially Buddhism). Considering, many of the above religions rarely resort to violence to achieve their aims that they are the ones that have been least corrupted. |
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quote: Originally posted by heujas: quote: Originally posted by ijaz:
All religions of the world - Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and others - have been severly corrupted through innovations, traditions, and the idolization of humans such as the prophets and the saints..
Not a religious person, but I consider the above statement a bit of an insult to all religions (especially Buddhism). Considering, many of the above religions rarely resort to violence to achieve their aims that they are the ones that have been least corrupted.
well, thats the big blindspot with the overly religious types, they have to believe their way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong. i like that line from the film dogma "its not important which faith you have, just that you have faith" Its a shame more of those who need religion dont take that on board and just get on with eachother. |
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quote: Originally posted by thefuture: quote: Originally posted by CoolBreeze:
What a load of ignorant nonsense. Islam is and always has been an evangelical religion. Anyone can become a muslim.
I agree It isnt a birth right. Last time i checked  anyone is free to become a muslim or a member of any religion they care to subscribe to.
What about leaving their religion, is everyone free to do that. |
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quote: Originally posted by ijaz: quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by ijaz: quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by ijaz:
PS as regards to Muhammad having not clarifying the message, this is not true, because Muhammad only followed the Quran and told believers to do the same, however, people did the opposite and started worshiping him, instead of God..
And your proof for this is what? What brand of muslim considers Muhammad divine pray tell? The Shahadah makes it extremely clear the Muhammad is merely the messenger of God as all muslims know.
Peace (Salaam) thenegus, The Muslim's I am talking about are the Sunni's which are in Majority.. The name itself signifies its content, Sunni means doings and sayings of Muhammad.. Following is the verse where Muhammd was told to follow Quran and his people; Quran: The Ultimate Reference [5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed. The following verse specificaly orders us not to call anyone else's name beside God in the places of worship, regardless of this all Sunni call upon Muhammad in there Salat in the places of worship; [72:18] The places of worship belong to GOD; do not call on anyone else beside GOD. Sunni's follow Hadith and Sunna, doings and saying of Muhammad, while 5:48, clearly states to follow Quran and God.. By putting Muhammad beside God in your shahada your are making distinction between prophets while Quran states otherwise; No Distinction Among God's Messengers [2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters." You are saying that you do this because he was the final messenger, however, Quran states that he was final prophet but not final messenger; Not The Final Messenger* [33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things. Is that enough to convince you that Sunni's have made Muhammad divine.. Or shell I carry on.. Regards
*Sigh So you accuse all sunnis of worshiping muhammed. That includes me I suppose . From your quotes about Muhammed not being the final Messenger of God I assume you're an Ahmadiyah which explains a lot.
No I am not Ahmadiyah, and I do not know who they are, I am a Muslim and I do not believe in sects, My Shahada is "There is no god besides God".. enough about me, how come you are evading the answer to what I said, have you varified in the Quran about what I said, I might be telling you fibs.. [2:163] Your god is one god; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. [6:106] Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, there is no god except He, and disregard the idol worshipers. Religious Sects Condemned [6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done. [13:30] We have sent you to this community, just as we did for other communities in the past. You shall recite to them what we reveal to you, for they have disbelieved in the Most Gracious. Say, "He is my Lord. There is no god except He. I put my trust in Him alone; to Him is my ultimate destiny." Sectarianism Condemned [30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.
You claim to be a muslim then why do you deny that Muhammed is the seal of the prophets (i.e. messengers of God)? That's pretty much accepted by all muslims. You made a pretty controversial statement saying sunnis are worshipping Mohammed. That is an insult and a straight out lie. I can only assume you're an agent provocateur. That's all I have to say on the topic. |
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quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thefuture: quote: Originally posted by CoolBreeze:
What a load of ignorant nonsense. Islam is and always has been an evangelical religion. Anyone can become a muslim.
I agree It isnt a birth right. Last time i checked anyone is free to become a muslim or a member of any religion they care to subscribe to.
What about leaving their religion, is everyone free to do that.
According to my reading yes. |
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quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
According to my reading yes.
According to your reading, interesting. Well make sure to avoid reading the subject of Apostates. |
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quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
According to my reading yes.
According to your reading, interesting. Well make sure to avoid reading the subject of Apostates.
Point it to me in the Qu'ran where it says that Apostates are to be killed. |
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quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
According to my reading yes.
According to your reading, interesting. Well make sure to avoid reading the subject of Apostates.
Point it to me in the Qu'ran where it says that Apostates are to be killed.
The questions should be, are you denying that Orthodox Muslims who leave their faith to follow another are not threatened with death? |
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quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
According to my reading yes.
According to your reading, interesting. Well make sure to avoid reading the subject of Apostates.
Point it to me in the Qu'ran where it says that Apostates are to be killed.
The questions should be, are you denying that Orthodox Muslims who leave their faith to follow another are not threatened with death?
By some yes but that doesn't mean it's an Islamic teaching backed up by anything in the Qu'ran. Next question? |
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quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
By some yes but that doesn't mean it's an Islamic teaching backed up by anything in the Qu'ran. Next question?
Its odd I never mentioned it as being in the Koran, but you made a lot of inference that I did? Its also odd you inferred I meant Islam in regard to Apostates. Roman Catholicism also took a dim view of the subject. However, you got a bit defensive their about Islam. That was not my intent. Apologies from me and a minus score for you in regard to bad mind reading skills on your part. |
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quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
By some yes but that doesn't mean it's an Islamic teaching backed up by anything in the Qu'ran. Next question?
Its odd I never mentioned it as being in the Koran, but you made a lot of inference that I did? Its also odd you inferred I meant Islam in regard to Apostates. Roman Catholicism also took a dim view of the subject. However, you got a bit defensive their about Islam. That was not my intent. Apologies from me and a minus score for you in regard to bad mind reading skills on your part.
Dishonest and disingenuous. The conversation started when you made a remark about people being allowed to leave Islam (with other religions being a side issue). All of a sudden you pretend you were talking about Apostates in general? |
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quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
By some yes but that doesn't mean it's an Islamic teaching backed up by anything in the Qu'ran. Next question?
Its odd I never mentioned it as being in the Koran, but you made a lot of inference that I did? Its also odd you inferred I meant Islam in regard to Apostates. Roman Catholicism also took a dim view of the subject. However, you got a bit defensive their about Islam. That was not my intent. Apologies from me and a minus score for you in regard to bad mind reading skills on your part.
Dishonest and disingenuous. The conversation started when you made a remark about people being allowed to leave Islam (with other religions being a side issue). All of a sudden you pretend you were talking about Apostates in general?
Why not, I think it was a valid topic in general. You were still nauhty assuming I was stating it a directive of the Koran  |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApostasyHere the origonal greek term and its stating it as a term in context to how I used it. Not how your insinuating I am using it. Its dishonest of you to assume without asking me directly what I was infuring, just because I'm an infidel. Are you Judge Jury and executioner.
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quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus: quote: Originally posted by gt: quote: Originally posted by thenegus:
According to my reading yes.
According to your reading, interesting. Well make sure to avoid reading the subject of Apostates.
Point it to me in the Qu'ran where it says that Apostates are to be killed.
The questions should be, are you denying that Orthodox Muslims who leave their faith to follow another are not threatened with death?
By some yes but that doesn't mean it's an Islamic teaching backed up by anything in the Qu'ran. Next question?
Peace Gt, I am afraid I showed thenegus many verses from the Quran proving to him that Sunni's are in fact Muhammadan's and not Muslims, which all went above his head.. So I don't understand why he wants quotes from the Quran when he does not believe in it.. To thenegus, As for Muhammad being a final prophet I agree however, final messenger is another matter, 33:40 clearly states that he was not the final messenger but was the final prophet as quoted above.. For the people who read Quran it is simple to know the difference between prophet and a messenger, to clarify this matter read 3:81 and 33:7, these verses explains the difference between prophet and messenger and 3:81 & 33:7 also prophesis the advent of the messenger of the Covenant.. Regards |
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quote: Peace Gt,
Peace ijaz, Happy Baby Jesus day.  I didn't want to have Merry Christmas, it could offend Left whingers, wingers i mean. |
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