Originally posted by logician: Tankapo: How can we say that you are wrong when you are not? You pointed out rightly that
quote:
it must translated into ACTION in a form approvable by EVERYONE
Statistically, if 0.001% of the total lot taken it wrong then we should not consider this to be "EVERYONE".
What would you like to say that this 0.001% (or less) have blessings of the 75% of the west (most of the time)?
Ahhh, but you see, here is the problem with any religion which try to present its case as REPRESENTATIVE of the "ALMIGHTY" God.....
"God", as folks of "monolithic" religion always tell us, is "supernatural", his/her wisedom so vast, so great, and so amazing that this wisdom of God can guide EVERYONE (and yes, that's 100.000000000000% of the human population!!!!!) into "good life".
Therefore, if even 1 person out of current 1 billion Muslim population fails to act in a way that is according to the text of God, Quran, (see, you are trying too hard (!!) to claim that Quran "IS" the text from "almighty" God!), then the Quran can be dismissed as a text from God, if we want to accept its creater as "supernatural" being who is "truly above and beyond" ANY human wickedness.
I wounder, did "God" really created humans at all??? If (s)he did, why is (s)he having such a "hard time" trying to get us to "receive message" and just "get it".....????
I do not agree with you on this, if God's wisdom is needed (as you say) to guide EVERYONE then God should have programmed EVERYONE and not let it left for humans in the first place.
As I said earlier in another thead that the existance of God is a basic assumption to start from. Instead we start discussing about what should be individuals experience about God, if exist or not.
All religions are guiding principles for different kind of people for different times. At least one part of each religion is distinct and disjoint from all others and Islam (if it is for all) should be a collection of all disjoint and distinct parts of all religions PLUS common part to all religions, to be mathematically precise. Every human being belongs to one or more religions (though person may not say so) depending on his nature, so a muslim should carry signatures of all religions.
Originally posted by thenegus: Sophistry. You're quibbling about the difference between the words Rasul and Nabi. The words used in the verse you gave (33:40) is "Khatamun Nabiyyeen" means "seal of the prophets". You quibble that he may have been the last Nabi but not the last Rasul. That is a slightly stupid line of reasoning since once cannot be a Rasul without being a Nabi. Do your research.
Can you prove the above .i.e. "Cannot be Rasul wothout being a Nabi..
My proof that you can be messenger without being Nabi is in 33:40 where Nabi and Rasool (Prophet and Messenger) have been addressed separately and in 3:81, where there is advent of "Messeneger of the Covenant" and not a prophet been prophesiesed after Muhammad..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Not The Final Messenger
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Originally posted by thenegus: Sophistry. You're quibbling about the difference between the words Rasul and Nabi. The words used in the verse you gave (33:40) is "Khatamun Nabiyyeen" means "seal of the prophets". You quibble that he may have been the last Nabi but not the last Rasul. That is a slightly stupid line of reasoning since once cannot be a Rasul without being a Nabi. Do your research.
Can you prove the above .i.e. "Cannot be Rasul wothout being a Nabi..
My proof that you can be messenger without being Nabi is in 33:40 where Nabi and Rasool (Prophet and Messenger) have been addressed separately and in 3:81, where there is advent of "Messeneger of the Covenant" and not a prophet been prophesiesed after Muhammad..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Not The Final Messenger
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Lets see your proof now!!
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
Originally posted by thenegus: Sophistry. You're quibbling about the difference between the words Rasul and Nabi. The words used in the verse you gave (33:40) is "Khatamun Nabiyyeen" means "seal of the prophets". You quibble that he may have been the last Nabi but not the last Rasul. That is a slightly stupid line of reasoning since once cannot be a Rasul without being a N
abi. Do your research.
Can you prove the above .i.e. "Cannot be Rasul wothout being a Nabi..
My proof that you can be messenger without being Nabi is in 33:40 where Nabi and Rasool (Prophet and Messenger) have been addressed separately and in 3:81, where there is advent of "Messeneger of the Covenant" and not a prophet been prophesiesed after Muhammad..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Not The Final Messenger
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Lets see your proof now!!
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
All the prophets were also messengers who had direct visitation from Gabriel.Gabriel was the conduit between Allah and the prophets so therefore my conclusion is Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger but he was not divine and there can be no interpretation on that point.
Originally posted by thenegus: Sophistry. You're quibbling about the difference between the words Rasul and Nabi. The words used in the verse you gave (33:40) is "Khatamun Nabiyyeen" means "seal of the prophets". You quibble that he may have been the last Nabi but not the last Rasul. That is a slightly stupid line of reasoning since once cannot be a Rasul without being a N
abi. Do your research.
Can you prove the above .i.e. "Cannot be Rasul wothout being a Nabi..
My proof that you can be messenger without being Nabi is in 33:40 where Nabi and Rasool (Prophet and Messenger) have been addressed separately and in 3:81, where there is advent of "Messeneger of the Covenant" and not a prophet been prophesiesed after Muhammad..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Not The Final Messenger
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Lets see your proof now!!
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
All the prophets were also messengers who had direct visitation from Gabriel.Gabriel was the conduit between Allah and the prophets so therefore my conclusion is Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger but he was not divine and there can be no interpretation on that point.
It's Ijaz who accuses sunni muslims of the heresy of worshiping Muhammed. I have to wonder what his agenda is.
Originally posted by thenegus: Sophistry. You're quibbling about the difference between the words Rasul and Nabi. The words used in the verse you gave (33:40) is "Khatamun Nabiyyeen" means "seal of the prophets". You quibble that he may have been the last Nabi but not the last Rasul. That is a slightly stupid line of reasoning since once cannot be a Rasul without being a N
abi. Do your research.
Can you prove the above .i.e. "Cannot be Rasul wothout being a Nabi..
My proof that you can be messenger without being Nabi is in 33:40 where Nabi and Rasool (Prophet and Messenger) have been addressed separately and in 3:81, where there is advent of "Messeneger of the Covenant" and not a prophet been prophesiesed after Muhammad..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Not The Final Messenger
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Lets see your proof now!!
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
All the prophets were also messengers who had direct visitation from Gabriel.Gabriel was the conduit between Allah and the prophets so therefore my conclusion is Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger but he was not divine and there can be no interpretation on that point.
It's Ijaz who accuses sunni muslims of the heresy of worshiping Muhammed. I have to wonder what his agenda is.
Sorry i should have pointed out that i was agreeing with you on this very basic point.There is a problem,which i have noticed,where literalists are pushing forward an agenda.I don,t like using the word fundamentalist because literalist suits much better.When you have people making interpretations on the very essence of what Islam is you are heading down a very slippery slope.All you can do is keep spreading the truth because the truth always prevails.
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
This is our last chance to side with God or side up with idols and go to Hell..
I am warning you if you do not follow Quran Alone for your salvation you will end up in Hell, on that day you cannot say that you were not told!!!
This is time of facts and figures, use your senses and read the following verse again, forget what the "Standard Interpretations" say follow what the Quran says and you understand, because on the day of Judgement it will be you and God, only you are answerable to what you did not the "Standard Interpretator"..
If you follow interpretations of Quran then you are following your idol who's interpretations you are following and not God, this is blatent idolworship, IDOLWORSHIP is the only sin if maintained until death is unforgivable.. even murder can be forgiven by God, Moses killed a man God made him prophet him..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Let me re-itterate what the above verse is saying..
Muhammad was a prophet who made this covenant with God that a messenger will come after all the Prophets are gone, and he with other prophets will support him..
Your interpretion of messenger and prophet has no contest with the word of God, even one verse from God is a law, while interpretations has 0 value..
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
This is our last chance to side with God or side up with idols and go to Hell..
I am warning you if you do not follow Quran Alone for your salvation you will end up in Hell, on that day you cannot say that you were not told!!!
This is time of facts and figures, use your senses and read the following verse again, forget what the "Standard Interpretations" say follow what the Quran says and you understand, because on the day of Judgement it will be you and God, only you are answerable to what you did not the "Standard Interpretator"..
If you follow interpretations of Quran then you are following your idol who's interpretations you are following and not God, this is blatent idolworship, IDOLWORSHIP is the only sin if maintained until death is unforgivable.. even murder can be forgiven by God, Moses killed a man God made him prophet him..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Let me re-itterate what the above verse is saying..
Muhammad was a prophet who made this covenant with God that a messenger will come after all the Prophets are gone, and he with other prophets will support him..
Your interpretion of messenger and prophet has no contest with the word of God, even one verse from God is a law, while interpretations has 0 value..
What idol are you raving about me following? You're not making sense.
These are the facts. It's quite clearly stated in the Qu'ran that Muhammed is the seal of the Prophets (Nabi). It's you who are twisting the words of the Qu'ran to fit your pet theory that there will be another Rasul after Muhammed who is not a Nabi. Have a nice day.
I'm bang up for watching a healthy debate between Muslims.
However...
It would be EVERSO nice if 95% of you didn't lecture Non-Muslims so often about how united you all are, how incredibly simple and NOT open to interpretation your holy books are and how silly other religions are for having different shades of opinion, ideas and practices within them.
Originally posted by littleandoften: I'm bang up for watching a healthy debate between Muslims.
However...
It would be EVERSO nice if 95% of you didn't lecture Non-Muslims so often about how united you all are, how incredibly simple and NOT open to interpretation your holy books are and how silly other religions are for having different shades of opinion, ideas and practices within them.
Originally posted by littleandoften: I'm bang up for watching a healthy debate between Muslims.
However...
It would be EVERSO nice if 95% of you didn't lecture Non-Muslims so often about how united you all are, how incredibly simple and NOT open to interpretation your holy books are and how silly other religions are for having different shades of opinion, ideas and practices within them.
Ta.
I think i have contributed to this debate yet i am not a muslim.Maybe your contribution could be a little more pertinent to the actual discussion or maybe you just don,t have any views to begin with.If you havn,t already been told Islam went in two very different directions after the death of Mohammed.Nobody could ever claim that muslims are united or ever have been,let alone muslims themselves.I don,t know where you get your information from but your point is rather puerile.
Originally posted by littleandoften: I'm bang up for watching a healthy debate between Muslims.
However...
It would be EVERSO nice if 95% of you didn't lecture Non-Muslims so often about how united you all are, how incredibly simple and NOT open to interpretation your holy books are and how silly other religions are for having different shades of opinion, ideas and practices within them.
Ta.
Janner has already schooled you so I'll just ask a simple question. Whoever claimed here that muslims were united? As for the interpretation of holy books it's human nature to disagree on points of doctrine .
Originally posted by thenegus: Sophistry. You're quibbling about the difference between the words Rasul and Nabi. The words used in the verse you gave (33:40) is "Khatamun Nabiyyeen" means "seal of the prophets". You quibble that he may have been the last Nabi but not the last Rasul. That is a slightly stupid line of reasoning since once cannot be a Rasul without being a Nabi. Do your research.
Can you prove the above .i.e. "Cannot be Rasul wothout being a Nabi..
My proof that you can be messenger without being Nabi is in 33:40 where Nabi and Rasool (Prophet and Messenger) have been addressed separately and in 3:81, where there is advent of "Messeneger of the Covenant" and not a prophet been prophesiesed after Muhammad..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Not The Final Messenger
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Lets see your proof now!!
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
Here you are! I'll prove once more that there could be messengers which were not Prophets;
I have no other agenda but to tell you to follow the Quran alone without using any interpretations if you wish!!
(19:56) refers to prophet who was not a messenger.
[19:56] And mention in the scripture Idris. He was a saint, a prophet.
(22:52) here the prophets and the messengers are once again refered separately..
The System
[22:52] We did not send before you any messenger, nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.*
Following verses state messengers who were not prophets..
[26:124] Their brother Hood said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
[26:125] "I am an honest messenger to you.
[26:142] Their brother Saaleh said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
Originally posted by thenegus: Sophistry. You're quibbling about the difference between the words Rasul and Nabi. The words used in the verse you gave (33:40) is "Khatamun Nabiyyeen" means "seal of the prophets". You quibble that he may have been the last Nabi but not the last Rasul. That is a slightly stupid line of reasoning since once cannot be a Rasul without being a Nabi. Do your research.
Can you prove the above .i.e. "Cannot be Rasul wothout being a Nabi..
My proof that you can be messenger without being Nabi is in 33:40 where Nabi and Rasool (Prophet and Messenger) have been addressed separately and in 3:81, where there is advent of "Messeneger of the Covenant" and not a prophet been prophesiesed after Muhammad..
Major Prophecy Fulfilled God's Messenger of the Covenant
[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Not The Final Messenger
[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Lets see your proof now!!
The standard interpretation of the word Rasul is a messenger from God (Nabi) sent with a revelation thus logically one cannot be a Rasul without being a messenger from God (Nabi). All Rasul named in the Qu'ran were also Nabi so until you can name one Rasul who was not a Nabi you are clearly wrong.
It's pretty simple even for you. Quoting two verses in isolation as "proof" doesn't change this.
Here you are! I'll prove once more that there could be messengers which were not Prophets;
I have no other agenda but to tell you to follow the Quran alone without using any interpretations if you wish!!
(19:56) refers to prophet who was not a messenger.
[19:56] And mention in the scripture Idris. He was a saint, a prophet.
Hmm the verse you fail to quote says
quote:
19:56 And mention Idris in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet,
quote:
(22:52) here the prophets and the messengers are once again refered separately..
The System
[22:52] We did not send before you any messenger, nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.*
More sophistry. I already mentioned the difference between Nabi and Rasul which you're just reiterating. A Rasul is a Nabi with a revelation. Now since Muhammed is revealed not as the seal of the Rasul but the seal of the Nabi you don't have a leg to stand on.
quote:
Following verses state messengers who were not prophets..
[26:124] Their brother Hood said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
[26:125] "I am an honest messenger to you.
[26:142] Their brother Saaleh said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
[26:143] "I am an honest messenger to you.
You keep missing the point and just quoting verses which in no way back up what you're asserting.
