I sit here looking at the UK's infrastructure and strategic industries and just wonder how the heck we got here.
There's barely anything left in UK hands.
I feel a rant coming on.
It's insane!. Major utilities under foreign ownership, future investment in which relies totally on how much the Government can persuade them to spend. Heathrow, our major port yet a national embarrassment. And just how much control does the government have on a Spanish company?
EDF are having a gas field day. Our schoolchildrens' immediate future is in shambles owing to the spectacular incompetence of American ETS. Love these three initials outfits.
Of course there's European directives supposedly enforcing open competition, but everybody knows elsewhere in the EU, governments have been conveniently dragging their feet over privatisation and liberalisation. Meanwhile our dipstick government plays by the rules and sees us eaten up wholesale. Meanwhile, how much as been poured into Alitalia in the last few years? A company private BA has to compete with.
The same attitude prevails in what remains of the British coporate sector. I've worked in service to engineering companies all my life, and own my own small business in the sector. And the emigration of manufacturing carries on relentlessly. It's always been an industry in-joke than every and any UK business is up for sale if the price is right. It is not the same mentality in Western Europe. Such things as family companies still exist in their thousands on the continent, especially in Germany and above all, Italy. In control of their own destiny.
Not so long ago we were actually making more cars than ever before, despite not having a single indigenous mass manufacturer left. That's slipped of late. All of them foreign owned. Great - they provide employment, a bit of help to the supply chain (though most is brought in), pay VAT, employment tax, and if they aren't slippery enough and HMRC are having a rare good day, maybe a wee bit of corporate tax.
But the net profit and development - the high value, high wage bit is all over there. As is control. I was so saddened when Rolls Royce put their new R&D operation in Germany. Pricey taxwise, sure. But look at the quality of the people. Rolls said there is a manufacturing mentality there that simply doesn't exist here.
Does it really matter?
I think so. Crucially, for many reasons. Not least the fact that the elephant in the room - our tragic trade deficit storms on. £4.2B in May alone. Anybody know how much it costs to finance? I don't.
About the only word that can bring a smile to Brown's lips is "globalisation". It's macho stuff, but the only trouble is they always manage to sell us more than we do them.
When did it start? Obviously Thatcher lit the touchpaper. But Labour have been worse if anything. It's like they've given up. The price of everything and value of nothing government if ever there was one.
I'm astonished the Navy's lavish aircraft carriers haven't gone to Korea.
It's crept into public psyche too. And it was in order. Decades ago, when we still had a car industry, the copper in his BMW would attend an RTA and a Renault ambulance would collect the result. No wonder people could be bothered to even think where a product came from. I checked the organic vine cherry tomatoes in Sainsburys today - Israel.
Manufacturing, designing, growing...it's just like hard work. Unlike speculating property and pushing mega figures around the world on a screen.
I have a much better idea than this silly bloody great horse they're going to stick up at Ebbsfleet. A huge sign saying "Remnants Sale" so big it can be seen from Bejing.
I am in total agreement. The last piece of silver that remains unsold are the universities. They will be next and then the demise into '4th World Country' status will be complete.
Originally posted by TrevGo: Such things as family companies still exist in their thousands on the continent, especially in Germany and above all, Italy. In control of their own destiny.
Not quite true. A lot of the big German family names are being quietly picked off. Merck is Swiss now (Serono). Wella is American (Procter and Gamble).
You didn't mention us, though, the public.
I can remember just how fantastic most people thought it was at the time - the rush to subscribe to the latest shares, the conviction that privatisation and the market would cure every ill etc.
It ill behoves people of a certain age (60+) to moan about high utility prices. They lapped it up when they were in their prime 25 years ago and happily lapped up the share profits and dividends.
Originally posted by TrevGo: I sit here looking at the UK's infrastructure and strategic industries and just wonder how the heck we got here.
There's barely anything left in UK hands.
I feel a rant coming on.
It's insane!. Major utilities under foreign ownership, future investment in which relies totally on how much the Government can persuade them to spend. Heathrow, our major port yet a national embarrassment. And just how much control does the government have on a Spanish company?
EDF are having a gas field day. Our schoolchildrens' immediate future is in shambles owing to the spectacular incompetence of American ETS. Love these three initials outfits.
Of course there's European directives supposedly enforcing open competition, but everybody knows elsewhere in the EU, governments have been conveniently dragging their feet over privatisation and liberalisation. Meanwhile our dipstick government plays by the rules and sees us eaten up wholesale. Meanwhile, how much as been poured into Alitalia in the last few years? A company private BA has to compete with.
The same attitude prevails in what remains of the British coporate sector. I've worked in service to engineering companies all my life, and own my own small business in the sector. And the emigration of manufacturing carries on relentlessly. It's always been an industry in-joke than every and any UK business is up for sale if the price is right. It is not the same mentality in Western Europe. Such things as family companies still exist in their thousands on the continent, especially in Germany and above all, Italy. In control of their own destiny.
Not so long ago we were actually making more cars than ever before, despite not having a single indigenous mass manufacturer left. That's slipped of late. All of them foreign owned. Great - they provide employment, a bit of help to the supply chain (though most is brought in), pay VAT, employment tax, and if they aren't slippery enough and HMRC are having a rare good day, maybe a wee bit of corporate tax.
But the net profit and development - the high value, high wage bit is all over there. As is control. I was so saddened when Rolls Royce put their new R&D operation in Germany. Pricey taxwise, sure. But look at the quality of the people. Rolls said there is a manufacturing mentality there that simply doesn't exist here.
Does it really matter?
I think so. Crucially, for many reasons. Not least the fact that the elephant in the room - our tragic trade deficit storms on. £4.2B in May alone. Anybody know how much it costs to finance? I don't.
About the only word that can bring a smile to Brown's lips is "globalisation". It's macho stuff, but the only trouble is they always manage to sell us more than we do them.
When did it start? Obviously Thatcher lit the touchpaper. But Labour have been worse if anything. It's like they've given up. The price of everything and value of nothing government if ever there was one.
I'm astonished the Navy's lavish aircraft carriers haven't gone to Korea.
It's crept into public psyche too. And it was in order. Decades ago, when we still had a car industry, the copper in his BMW would attend an RTA and a Renault ambulance would collect the result. No wonder people could be bothered to even think where a product came from. I checked the organic vine cherry tomatoes in Sainsburys today - Israel.
Manufacturing, designing, growing...it's just like hard work. Unlike speculating property and pushing mega figures around the world on a screen.
I have a much better idea than this silly bloody great horse they're going to stick up at Ebbsfleet. A huge sign saying "Remnants Sale" so big it can be seen from Bejing.
You talk as if the British public had no say in the matter. They did. They elected successive Tory governments that sold off everything that wasn't nailed down. They refused to elect a Labour government unless it accepted the Tory economic model. As the saying goes, you make your bed..........
Originally posted by TrevGo: I sit here looking at the UK's infrastructure and strategic industries and just wonder how the heck we got here.
There's barely anything left in UK hands.
I feel a rant coming on.
It's insane!. Major utilities under foreign ownership, future investment in which relies totally on how much the Government can persuade them to spend. Heathrow, our major port yet a national embarrassment. And just how much control does the government have on a Spanish company?
EDF are having a gas field day. Our schoolchildrens' immediate future is in shambles owing to the spectacular incompetence of American ETS. Love these three initials outfits.
Of course there's European directives supposedly enforcing open competition, but everybody knows elsewhere in the EU, governments have been conveniently dragging their feet over privatisation and liberalisation. Meanwhile our dipstick government plays by the rules and sees us eaten up wholesale. Meanwhile, how much as been poured into Alitalia in the last few years? A company private BA has to compete with.
The same attitude prevails in what remains of the British coporate sector. I've worked in service to engineering companies all my life, and own my own small business in the sector. And the emigration of manufacturing carries on relentlessly. It's always been an industry in-joke than every and any UK business is up for sale if the price is right. It is not the same mentality in Western Europe. Such things as family companies still exist in their thousands on the continent, especially in Germany and above all, Italy. In control of their own destiny.
Not so long ago we were actually making more cars than ever before, despite not having a single indigenous mass manufacturer left. That's slipped of late. All of them foreign owned. Great - they provide employment, a bit of help to the supply chain (though most is brought in), pay VAT, employment tax, and if they aren't slippery enough and HMRC are having a rare good day, maybe a wee bit of corporate tax.
But the net profit and development - the high value, high wage bit is all over there. As is control. I was so saddened when Rolls Royce put their new R&D operation in Germany. Pricey taxwise, sure. But look at the quality of the people. Rolls said there is a manufacturing mentality there that simply doesn't exist here.
Does it really matter?
I think so. Crucially, for many reasons. Not least the fact that the elephant in the room - our tragic trade deficit storms on. £4.2B in May alone. Anybody know how much it costs to finance? I don't.
About the only word that can bring a smile to Brown's lips is "globalisation". It's macho stuff, but the only trouble is they always manage to sell us more than we do them.
When did it start? Obviously Thatcher lit the touchpaper. But Labour have been worse if anything. It's like they've given up. The price of everything and value of nothing government if ever there was one.
I'm astonished the Navy's lavish aircraft carriers haven't gone to Korea.
It's crept into public psyche too. And it was in order. Decades ago, when we still had a car industry, the copper in his BMW would attend an RTA and a Renault ambulance would collect the result. No wonder people could be bothered to even think where a product came from. I checked the organic vine cherry tomatoes in Sainsburys today - Israel.
Manufacturing, designing, growing...it's just like hard work. Unlike speculating property and pushing mega figures around the world on a screen.
I have a much better idea than this silly bloody great horse they're going to stick up at Ebbsfleet. A huge sign saying "Remnants Sale" so big it can be seen from Bejing.
You talk as if the British public had no say in the matter. They did. They elected successive Tory governments that sold off everything that wasn't nailed down. They refused to elect a Labour government unless it accepted the Tory economic model. As the saying goes, you make your bed..........
Then you admit Labour and the Tories are identical.
This situation is not the fault of the public alone. Successive Governments have ensured that the voting system is such that only floating voters in key marginals really matter. I would wish to see the end of 1st past the post.
Once that is binned then you might have more of an argument regarding the voting habits of the people.
Then you admit Labour and the Tories are identical.
This situation is not the fault of the public alone. Successive Governments have ensured that the voting system is such that only floating voters in key marginals really matter. I would wish to see the end of 1st past the post.
Once that is binned then you might have more of an argument regarding the voting habits of the people.
Absolutely. People complain that PR gives minority parties undue power. Our crazy system gives a minority party absolute power.
The current one sits on a large majority with barely more than 1/3rd of the vote. Don't talk about mandates to me. No government in my lifetime had a real mandate.
Of course the public are not guilt free. I said as much in the post. When successive governments show no patriotism whatsoever, go for the quick buck, and encourage everyone else to do the same, it's hardly surprising.
When did a government spokesman ever even hint that ludicrous property prices are a bad thing? Did the word "manufacturing" pass Brown's lips in the past 12 months?
It's why I get so stroppy with the nublaborites on here. They haven't a clue.
And it seems barely anyone else in power or even the potential of power does either.
t ill behoves people of a certain age (60+) to moan about high utility prices. They lapped it up when they were in their prime 25 years ago and happily lapped up the share profits and dividends.
I am one of those people of a certain age [almost], I think you should revise your statement to read some people of a certain age............because I never, ever bought into that Tory claptrap that Thatche spouted.
It was a very sad day for Britain, when so many people did buy into it. Now there is nothing left to buy into.
Absolutely. People complain that PR gives minority parties undue power. Our crazy system gives a minority party absolute power.
The current one sits on a large majority with barely more than 1/3rd of the vote. Don't talk about mandates to me. No government in my lifetime had a real mandate.
Of course the public are not guilt free. I said as much in the post. When successive governments show no patriotism whatsoever, go for the quick buck, and encourage everyone else to do the same, it's hardly surprising.
When did a government spokesman ever even hint that ludicrous property prices are a bad thing? Did the word "manufacturing" pass Brown's lips in the past 12 months?
It's why I get so stroppy with the nublaborites on here. They haven't a clue.
And it seems barely anyone else in power or even the potential of power does either.
Oh what a burden it must be for you to carry. Being so insightful and knowledgeable, and having no one of any significance taking any note of your wise words.
Originally posted by TrevGo: I sit here looking at the UK's infrastructure and strategic industries and just wonder how the heck we got here.
There's barely anything left in UK hands.
I feel a rant coming on.
It's insane!. Major utilities under foreign ownership, future investment in which relies totally on how much the Government can persuade them to spend. Heathrow, our major port yet a national embarrassment. And just how much control does the government have on a Spanish company?
EDF are having a gas field day. Our schoolchildrens' immediate future is in shambles owing to the spectacular incompetence of American ETS. Love these three initials outfits.
Of course there's European directives supposedly enforcing open competition, but everybody knows elsewhere in the EU, governments have been conveniently dragging their feet over privatisation and liberalisation. Meanwhile our dipstick government plays by the rules and sees us eaten up wholesale. Meanwhile, how much as been poured into Alitalia in the last few years? A company private BA has to compete with.
The same attitude prevails in what remains of the British coporate sector. I've worked in service to engineering companies all my life, and own my own small business in the sector. And the emigration of manufacturing carries on relentlessly. It's always been an industry in-joke than every and any UK business is up for sale if the price is right. It is not the same mentality in Western Europe. Such things as family companies still exist in their thousands on the continent, especially in Germany and above all, Italy. In control of their own destiny.
Not so long ago we were actually making more cars than ever before, despite not having a single indigenous mass manufacturer left. That's slipped of late. All of them foreign owned. Great - they provide employment, a bit of help to the supply chain (though most is brought in), pay VAT, employment tax, and if they aren't slippery enough and HMRC are having a rare good day, maybe a wee bit of corporate tax.
But the net profit and development - the high value, high wage bit is all over there. As is control. I was so saddened when Rolls Royce put their new R&D operation in Germany. Pricey taxwise, sure. But look at the quality of the people. Rolls said there is a manufacturing mentality there that simply doesn't exist here.
Does it really matter?
I think so. Crucially, for many reasons. Not least the fact that the elephant in the room - our tragic trade deficit storms on. £4.2B in May alone. Anybody know how much it costs to finance? I don't.
About the only word that can bring a smile to Brown's lips is "globalisation". It's macho stuff, but the only trouble is they always manage to sell us more than we do them.
When did it start? Obviously Thatcher lit the touchpaper. But Labour have been worse if anything. It's like they've given up. The price of everything and value of nothing government if ever there was one.
I'm astonished the Navy's lavish aircraft carriers haven't gone to Korea.
It's crept into public psyche too. And it was in order. Decades ago, when we still had a car industry, the copper in his BMW would attend an RTA and a Renault ambulance would collect the result. No wonder people could be bothered to even think where a product came from. I checked the organic vine cherry tomatoes in Sainsburys today - Israel.
Manufacturing, designing, growing...it's just like hard work. Unlike speculating property and pushing mega figures around the world on a screen.
I have a much better idea than this silly bloody great horse they're going to stick up at Ebbsfleet. A huge sign saying "Remnants Sale" so big it can be seen from Bejing.
Hey! Maybe we could set up some kinda co-operative, buy everything off them and leave these overseas firms owning worthless companies with no customers!
Trev I'm sorry to say you've missed quite a lot in your assessment.
The banking sector and the stock exchange - now the mainstay of our economy - has been sold off in the credit crunch - look at Barclays and the London Stock Exchange for example. Huge swathes of commercial and increasingly residential and retail property has been sold off to sovereign wealth funds and super-rich non-doms.
The immigrant population is hollowing out the economony too. You won't see the £3billion a year in GDP figuresthat that is lost the UK economy to money transfers every year from immigrants living here. That's only the official value through registered agencies - the figure could well be 2 or 3 times as high for unofficial transfers. Vast amounts of property is held by people who have every intention of cashing it in and returning to their 'home country'. They are of course joined by all the Brits who sell up and move abroad to live or retire in ever increasing numbers. I'm joining them soon - I don't want to be the one who has to turn out the lights.
The fact is the UK economy is a total basket case. Successive govenments starting with Maggie Thatcher right up to present have sold off all our economy. So called 'Growth' of the economy has only been artificially created and disguised by increasing numbers of people resident here. Soon the rapidly increasing population caused by present birthrates will drag the economy down further measured in per capita GDP. In another generation the UK will become a spent economic force.
And Magnetist, I have news for you. The university sector already depends heavily on foreign students coming here for its very existence. All the major student 'markets' are planning massive expansions of their own universities, and quality is increasing rapidly and will soon overtake our own contrantly dumbed-down system. Without exaggeration, we'll soon have only a handful of truly world-class universities left, and the world will stop sending their students here, and many universities will die.
Never mind, we can all occupy ourselves re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic while it happens.
Originally posted by C.L.A.D: You talk as if the British public had no say in the matter. They did. They elected successive Tory governments that sold off everything that wasn't nailed down. They refused to elect a Labour government unless it accepted the Tory economic model. As the saying goes, you make your bed..........
I think you make a mistake in understanding what is the issue.
Nationalised industries weren't much good in delivering services for a reasonable price, and privatising them was the way to go. The problem we have here is that there is no patriotism or nationalism in Government or business that wants to develop industries for our national good.
Let me explain, BP, this company came about from a national need to secure an oil fuel source for the Navy. To achieve this the British state projected its national interest through people like D'Arcy who bought the rights to prospect, and if found, develop the oil fields in Iran, and when that became too much for his resources to cope with they brought in Burma oil, which became Anglo Persian and then BP. So through a national need and in pursuing a national policy we have ended up with a world beating company that generates vast tax wealth for the UK.
The same took place with other areas of business where the British state expected to pursue a national interest to ensure we had the technology and business base. What is currently happening is that the British state has gone AWOL, it no longer seems to believe it has any national interest, and is happy to see the whole business base flogged off into foreign hands. Sometimes I think they have made mistaken calculation that in allowing this car boot sale of British assets they are encouraging the financial services industries, but they have forgotten that has also been flogged off into foreign hands and all this churning and burning of British assets is just enriching some American Merchant banks.
So in our power generation we are seeing the same thing happen as we have seen in our Financial Services and the big bang, where the British state should have seen the nurturing some world beating brokerage and banking business instead they have been flogged off to foreign interests before they could amount to anything. The same in our power generation, the British state instead of overseeing the development of some world beating Electricity Generation companies along the lines of BP, they instead have been flogged off to foreign companies whose countries are looking to build their companies into world beating companies. The fact is if we did then, in 1914 when the first moves to develop Persian oil fields was undertaken, as were are doing now we would never have BP, for it would already have been flogged off to foreign buyers by a US merchant bank trying to make a fast buck for them and a fat bonus for the trader.
The problem we have is that the British state can no longer figure out if it has a national interest, and even if it could figure out that it would probably consider it against the rules or racist for us to have a national interest.
And Magnetist, I have news for you. The university sector already depends heavily on foreign students coming here for its very existence. All the major student 'markets' are planning massive expansions of their own universities, and quality is increasing rapidly and will soon overtake our own contrantly dumbed-down system. Without exaggeration, we'll soon have only a handful of truly world-class universities left, and the world will stop sending their students here, and many universities will die.
Never mind, we can all occupy ourselves re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic while it happens.
I am quite aware of this fact. We are training the countries of the world to beat us technologically. Also, our own kids shun the sciences/technology degrees as they are 'for geeks' and have limited career prospects.
We should make a stand and invest massively in new technologies spun out from universities. Not six-month speculations but REAL investment.
The City is not the vehicle for ensuring that the country has a future as it is self-obsessed and considers wealth generation as the priority over all other concerns. As a result, the vampires in the City will happily kill their host-country victim if it means a small bonus at the end of the year.
Handing our future, as a nation, to this sector was the grossest idiocy in history. It is like giving the town drunks to key to your fine-wines cellar so that they can do a stock check...
Sadly a fair analysis. It misses one point. The average Brit would sell his/her Granny for a penny. The Average Brit also expects to become wealthy sitting on their behinds and doing as little as possible. The average Brit only cares about himself and keeping up with the 'joneses'. The Average Brit thinks England is a football team and that is the hight of his nationalism. Same can be said of other UK areas.
We like to think tha Thatcher brought all this on us but you are wrong in that. Decades of Political weakeness brought it on and were fuelled by the crass stupidity of people who shouted loudest but had least brains. The Working man of the 60's and 70's placed idiots like Red Robbo in positions of negotiating power. The voters swung between Tax and Spend Labour and cut and give back Tory. Eventually the workers were lead to destruction by people that talked big but did nothing but harm.
We need a political party that has a balanced view of this nation and not one that goes for best greed option. We need to get off our collective behinds and rebuild this nation. We need to realise we are a nation again.
You want some pointers? 1/ Re nationalise all public utilities and place them in the control of people that know what they are doing with a clear cut mandate to support the country first and foremost.
2/ Re introduce national service. Yes thats right. Why? Because we lost the ability to work together. We lost the ability to see that one person lacking means we all lack. We lost the empathy for ourselves as a nation. Its not about war its about team building and instilling some self respect and a formal national identity.
Originally posted by Tim.: We like to think tha Thatcher brought all this on us but you are wrong in that. Decades of Political weakeness brought it on and were fuelled by the crass stupidity of people who shouted loudest but had least brains. The Working man of the 60's and 70's placed idiots like Red Robbo in positions of negotiating power. The voters swung between Tax and Spend Labour and cut and give back Tory. Eventually the workers were lead to destruction by people that talked big but did nothing but harm.
The rot set in in the sixties and came to crescendo in the mid 70s. British Leyland could be the metaphor for the state of our industry. Outrageous unions and inept management.
Sad thing - amongst the mayhem were genuinely talented people. BL made some excellent cars amongst the dross.
It needed nasty medicine, but Thatchers was too nasty. The only answer to BL was to privatise, but it wasn't fit for the market. Meanwhile state owned Renault went through a dire patch, but the government held it's nerve. Put in good management and it not only survived, but became highly successful. Now owns Nissan, and the state still has 49%. Even when it was making dross, French police would still be driving around in them.
It's a cocktail of blame, but the lion's share must lie with governments.
Just a little patiotism in public sourcing would go a long way. But no. When Digby Jones took on the trade czar role he was only offered German cars as his limo. He said "how the heck can I be seen waving the flag for the UK driving a bloody Merc?". Sorry sir, Jags are not on the list.
He insisted, and apparently the decision went to Brown himself. I ask you. He got his Jag.
The Average Brit thinks England is a football team and that is the hight of his nationalism.
That is a puzzling statement?
The average Englishman thinks England is a football team, would read correctly.
The average Scot think Scotland is one of the finest Nations in the world, and wants to improve on that.
I'm not sure what the average Welsh and Irish think, although I'm reliably informed that they too want more for their Nation.
I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that England is the sole component Nation of the United Kingdom?
No i didn't that is why the next sentence after that exists. And only a percentage of Scots believe in Scotland as a nation and would love it to become independant as would I. Then we could clear out people Like Gordon Brown! But thanks for your input. Shame no comment on the basics of the rest.
