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quote: Originally posted by Optimus Maximus: quote: Originally posted by duffle:
No its the fact that you seem to think people who are not suitable for your company have no ability. Maybe some of them are thinking "God, I just need any old job to pay the bills and this dump will do for now".
You just come across as quite self important.
Interviewing is part of my job and if you're a computer science or IT graduate then my company would be a very good place to work because it pays very well, particularly to graduate trainees, and there are lots of career opportunities. I keep getting people arriving at interviews claiming first class degrees but they can barely answer any questions about the subject they studied, cannot discuss their thesis or projects and often are extremely inarticulate. We've taken on trainees with amazing paper qualifications but they've been completely incapable of doing even the most basic tasks. That is not just my opinion, it's a problem all employers are complaining about. Certificates just don't mean anything any more.
Op this is going to sound nasty and I don't mean it that way. If your job is interviewing job applicants then its more than a base matter of interviewing those who claim dazzling university results. Maybe interviewers moan because we (yes we) have to be more on the ball than just shuffling the best paperwork producer into employment. Second point.. the best payer is not always the best employer. However some of the worst payers are normally bad employers....Strange that... |
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quote: Originally posted by smiley cat:
Slightly off topic but related. I think that universities do fleece students to an extent.
My daughter has just started a course and one of her flatmates is doing a course that involves just 2 days of lectures a week! And yet she is going to be there for 3 years. It does make you wonder whether they can condense some of these courses down to 2 years as that would save tuition, accomodation etc. And then the student would not come out with such a big debt at the end.
This comment is based on an education model that assumes that students are 'pupils' that should be taught in a transmit-receive method. At university level, the emphasis is more on guided self-learning rather than downloading from a teacher. Many modern students find this hard because they expect the teat to be placed to their mouth rather than seek knowledge themselves. The few hours of tutelage are designed to get the students to identify what they should be learning and to establish their progress. This is quite common in subjects there considerable reading and/or library (etc) work is required. If we want to have graduates that cannot function as autonomous professionals then we should follow the teat-to-mouth method. If not then the students must take more responsibility for their own development. |
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The "only two days a week" thing:
It's hardly new. What it means is that the student in question is doing an arts / humanities subject. Much more study alone.
It's always been the same. My science degree involved morning lectures every day and four afternoons in a lab (often until quite late).
My English Lit friends seemed to have about 4 lectures a week.
It's normal for a lot of subjects.
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quote: Originally posted by The Magnetist: quote: Originally posted by smiley cat:
Slightly off topic but related. I think that universities do fleece students to an extent.
My daughter has just started a course and one of her flatmates is doing a course that involves just 2 days of lectures a week! And yet she is going to be there for 3 years. It does make you wonder whether they can condense some of these courses down to 2 years as that would save tuition, accomodation etc. And then the student would not come out with such a big debt at the end.
This comment is based on an education model that assumes that students are 'pupils' that should be taught in a transmit-receive method. At university level, the emphasis is more on guided self-learning rather than downloading from a teacher. Many modern students find this hard because they expect the teat to be placed to their mouth rather than seek knowledge themselves. The few hours of tutelage are designed to get the students to identify what they should be learning and to establish their progress. This is quite common in subjects there considerable reading and/or library (etc) work is required. If we want to have graduates that cannot function as autonomous professionals then we should follow the teat-to-mouth method. If not then the students must take more responsibility for their own development.
Precisely. This is one of the reasons why so many students today find university so difficult. The "free" time is to get through all those books on the reading lists and anything else you can find that's useful. The point is to develop independence in living, learning and thereby independence in thought. Having everything fed by a lecturer denies students this opportunity and is open to bias if most of the students' work is regurgitating a tutor's notes. A good 6th Form will have prepared students to some extent for this culture shock. |
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And that is true at every level of adult learning.
Your weekly Spanish night school class is not going to teach you the new language, or whatever. Your "Introduction to Excel" weekend course won't either.
Whatever you do, you have to do a shed-load more in your own time.
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quote: Originally posted by vbland:
And that is true at every level of adult learning.
Your weekly Spanish night school class is not going to teach you the new language, or whatever. Your "Introduction to Excel" weekend course won't either.
Whatever you do, you have to do a shed-load more in your own time.
In fact what happens is that a lot of students get part time jobs and fill up that time on the pretext of needing the money. Then they complain that the university doesn't give them enough help with their studies. |
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quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by vbland:
And that is true at every level of adult learning.
Your weekly Spanish night school class is not going to teach you the new language, or whatever. Your "Introduction to Excel" weekend course won't either.
Whatever you do, you have to do a shed-load more in your own time.
In fact what happens is that a lot of students get part time jobs and fill up that time on the pretext of needing the money. Then they complain that the university doesn't give them enough help with their studies.
When I was a degree student, we were informed that we were expected to undertake 40hrs 'study' a week as a minimum. I know that I did this as a mix of labs, lectures and home-study. I also held down a part-time job and I worked through the holidays whilst also having extensive homework to complete. |
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quote: Originally posted by The Magnetist: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by vbland:
And that is true at every level of adult learning.
Your weekly Spanish night school class is not going to teach you the new language, or whatever. Your "Introduction to Excel" weekend course won't either.
Whatever you do, you have to do a shed-load more in your own time.
In fact what happens is that a lot of students get part time jobs and fill up that time on the pretext of needing the money. Then they complain that the university doesn't give them enough help with their studies.
When I was a degree student, we were informed that we were expected to undertake 40hrs 'study' a week as a minimum. I know that I did this as a mix of labs, lectures and home-study. I also held down a part-time job and I worked through the holidays whilst also having extensive homework to complete.
Me too but like you say, outside of the hours needed for the academic stuff. I can assure you there are plenty of uni students today who are not as assiduous about the balance between a degree and a spending money job. |
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quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by The Magnetist: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by vbland:
And that is true at every level of adult learning.
Your weekly Spanish night school class is not going to teach you the new language, or whatever. Your "Introduction to Excel" weekend course won't either.
Whatever you do, you have to do a shed-load more in your own time.
In fact what happens is that a lot of students get part time jobs and fill up that time on the pretext of needing the money. Then they complain that the university doesn't give them enough help with their studies.
When I was a degree student, we were informed that we were expected to undertake 40hrs 'study' a week as a minimum. I know that I did this as a mix of labs, lectures and home-study. I also held down a part-time job and I worked through the holidays whilst also having extensive homework to complete.
Me too but like you say, outside of the hours needed for the academic stuff. I can assure you there are plenty of uni students today who are not as assiduous about the balance between a degree and a spending money job.
I think that part of the problem is that recently students have spent more money that I did. When I was a student we all looked like refugees but students today look like models for various high-street shops. They seem to pay for this via their loans. I have also noticed that universities and the student unions are not catering (literally) for refugees but are offering expensive restaurant food and snacks. I am sure that many of today's students would have a shock if they lived like Raskonikov as we did... |
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quote: Originally posted by The Magnetist: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse:
Me too but like you say, outside of the hours needed for the academic stuff. I can assure you there are plenty of uni students today who are not as assiduous about the balance between a degree and a spending money job.
I think that part of the problem is that recently students have spent more money that I did. When I was a student we all looked like refugees but students today look like models for various high-street shops. They seem to pay for this via their loans. I have also noticed that universities and the student unions are not catering (literally) for refugees but are offering expensive restaurant food and snacks. I am sure that many of today's students would have a shock if they lived like Raskonikov as we did...
 I seem to think that in the days before charity shops we used to go to seedy second hand shops for clothes or rely on Christmas presents. I can't ever remember buying anything new except in summer after weeks of 12 hour shifts in the hols. Neither can I remember any obesity! We seemed to be perpetually starving and living on toast and jam. |
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quote: Originally posted by Tim.:
Op this is going to sound nasty and I don't mean it that way. If your job is interviewing job applicants then its more than a base matter of interviewing those who claim dazzling university results. Maybe interviewers moan because we (yes we) have to be more on the ball than just shuffling the best paperwork producer into employment. Second point.. the best payer is not always the best employer. However some of the worst payers are normally bad employers....Strange that...
Interviewing candidates isn't my job, it's a smallish part of my job. The company shares that particular task amongst all its consultants because we're best placed to tell if people actually have the skills required and will fit in. We used to leave that to the HR department and it was a disaster. Part of the problem for me though is that the CVs we receive are filtered by HR and by senior managers and one of the thing they inevitably filter on is degree results (for new graduates at any rate, specific experience is more important for other candidates). I'm not complaining that I can't just go by results. All sorts of factors come into determining whether someone is suitable or not. All I'm saying is that increasingly we're getting people with amazing paper qualifications who are frankly thick and completely lacking in any kind of skills or ability. I simply don't see how such people gained those qualifications. As for the best payer not being the best employer, I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously that's true, but I'm not sure what the relevance is here. |
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quote: Originally posted by vbland:
The "only two days a week" thing:
It's hardly new. What it means is that the student in question is doing an arts / humanities subject. Much more study alone.
It's always been the same. My science degree involved morning lectures every day and four afternoons in a lab (often until quite late).
My English Lit friends seemed to have about 4 lectures a week.
It's normal for a lot of subjects.
Indeed. One of my friends did English and philosophy at Glasgow uni back in the late '80s / early '90s. He never seemed to be in lectures while I was constantly in lectures, labs and tutorials. Then to really wind me up at the end of his final year he had two exams and a couple of essays, while I had ten exams and a thesis to do. I've always felt it was rather unfair for us to be judged by the same grading system. |
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quote: Originally posted by The Magnetist: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by The Magnetist: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by vbland:
And that is true at every level of adult learning.
Your weekly Spanish night school class is not going to teach you the new language, or whatever. Your "Introduction to Excel" weekend course won't either.
Whatever you do, you have to do a shed-load more in your own time.
In fact what happens is that a lot of students get part time jobs and fill up that time on the pretext of needing the money. Then they complain that the university doesn't give them enough help with their studies.
When I was a degree student, we were informed that we were expected to undertake 40hrs 'study' a week as a minimum. I know that I did this as a mix of labs, lectures and home-study. I also held down a part-time job and I worked through the holidays whilst also having extensive homework to complete.
Me too but like you say, outside of the hours needed for the academic stuff. I can assure you there are plenty of uni students today who are not as assiduous about the balance between a degree and a spending money job.
I think that part of the problem is that recently students have spent more money that I did. When I was a student we all looked like refugees but students today look like models for various high-street shops. They seem to pay for this via their loans. I have also noticed that universities and the student unions are not catering (literally) for refugees but are offering expensive restaurant food and snacks. I am sure that many of today's students would have a shock if they lived like Raskonikov as we did...
I'm a tutor and postgrad student myself, and I've noticed this as well. Undergrads look very well kitted out these days! No thrift shop chic for them! And noone goes round trying to look 'intellectual' either! The old days are long gone. |
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quote: Originally posted by vbland:
The "only two days a week" thing:
It's hardly new. What it means is that the student in question is doing an arts / humanities subject. Much more study alone.
It's always been the same. My science degree involved morning lectures every day and four afternoons in a lab (often until quite late).
My English Lit friends seemed to have about 4 lectures a week.
It's normal for a lot of subjects.
Agreed. Students at university level are supposed to think for themselves, not be spoon-fed. I do English Lit and have a total of 8 hours of 'teaching' (ie lectures and seminars) per week, for 20 weeks a year. However, we're expected to do a further 32 hours of reading per week (8 per course). Add to that preparation for presentations and essay writing and it's quite a full schedule. In response to the actual topic of the thread, I personally don't feel that sorry for students. Surely they don't really think they'll get a job handed to them on a plate just because they have a degree? Ultimately, they are adults when they choose whether or not to go to university, and should be capable of making their own decisions. Students have always got into a lot of debt, and it doesn't always pay off (take me; getting into £20k of debt and I'll probably end up teaching, it's almost laughable :-s). It's your choice whether or not to go to university; nobody forces students to get into debt. I also don't quite buy the 'poor lambs, it's the governments fault for implying degrees are essential'. I know a lot of people who go to university 'for the experience'. Fine, but please don't cry and whine when it doesn't work out. That may sound harsh, but I'm a student myself and think some people need to take more responsibility for themselves and their choices |
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quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by The Magnetist: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse:
Me too but like you say, outside of the hours needed for the academic stuff. I can assure you there are plenty of uni students today who are not as assiduous about the balance between a degree and a spending money job.
I think that part of the problem is that recently students have spent more money that I did. When I was a student we all looked like refugees but students today look like models for various high-street shops. They seem to pay for this via their loans. I have also noticed that universities and the student unions are not catering (literally) for refugees but are offering expensive restaurant food and snacks. I am sure that many of today's students would have a shock if they lived like Raskonikov as we did...
I seem to think that in the days before charity shops we used to go to seedy second hand shops for clothes or rely on Christmas presents. I can't ever remember buying anything new except in summer after weeks of 12 hour shifts in the hols. Neither can I remember any obesity! We seemed to be perpetually starving and living on toast and jam.
Hey, I'm a regular in the charity shops where I live! And I just made myself a skirt out of scarves (bought from... charity shops!) ;-) |
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I would have been too but they didn't exist then! Not so sure I'd have made a skirt though.  |
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The will be fine as long as they haven't studied some completely useless degree like sea sport sciences. As for the debt unfortunately it is the nature of the beast and a fact that most students past, present and future know fully.
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quote: Originally posted by Odins_Raven:
The will be fine as long as they haven't studied some completely useless degree like sea sport sciences. As for the debt unfortunately it is the nature of the beast and a fact that most students past, present and future know fully.
Not so sure about the debt. My peer group were all very concerned to keep debt to a minimum. Remember Number 10 tipped? In any case bank managers were not generous in those days. Of course most (not all) finished in debt each year on our tiny grants but the main problem was that wages for graduates were not that high for starters. It took me a good 5-6 years before I was ahead of where I would have been if I'd gone to work at 18. |
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quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by Odins_Raven:
The will be fine as long as they haven't studied some completely useless degree like sea sport sciences. As for the debt unfortunately it is the nature of the beast and a fact that most students past, present and future know fully.
Not so sure about the debt. My peer group were all very concerned to keep debt to a minimum. Remember Number 10 tipped? In any case bank managers were not generous in those days. Of course most (not all) finished in debt each year on our tiny grants but the main problem was that wages for graduates were not that high for starters. It took me a good 5-6 years before I was ahead of where I would have been if I'd gone to work at 18.
But with the increase in students attending university it was no longer reasonable to expect the state to pay for all the courses. Tuition fees and low interest loans were the only way forward. If we want to go back to grant funded degrees then we have to go back to recruiting people who are scoring the upper grades in their A levels, diplomas etc and the rest tough luck. |
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quote: Originally posted by Odins_Raven: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by Odins_Raven:
The will be fine as long as they haven't studied some completely useless degree like sea sport sciences. As for the debt unfortunately it is the nature of the beast and a fact that most students past, present and future know fully.
Not so sure about the debt. My peer group were all very concerned to keep debt to a minimum. Remember Number 10 tipped? In any case bank managers were not generous in those days. Of course most (not all) finished in debt each year on our tiny grants but the main problem was that wages for graduates were not that high for starters. It took me a good 5-6 years before I was ahead of where I would have been if I'd gone to work at 18.
But with the increase in students attending university it was no longer reasonable to expect the state to pay for all the courses. Tuition fees and low interest loans were the only way forward. If we want to go back to grant funded degrees then we have to go back to recruiting people who are scoring the upper grades in their A levels, diplomas etc and the rest tough luck.
Yes I agree Odin. I was really commenting more on the non-academic spending of students. |
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quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by Odins_Raven: quote: Originally posted by Anonimouse: quote: Originally posted by Odins_Raven:
The will be fine as long as they haven't studied some completely useless degree like sea sport sciences. As for the debt unfortunately it is the nature of the beast and a fact that most students past, present and future know fully.
Not so sure about the debt. My peer group were all very concerned to keep debt to a minimum. Remember Number 10 tipped? In any case bank managers were not generous in those days. Of course most (not all) finished in debt each year on our tiny grants but the main problem was that wages for graduates were not that high for starters. It took me a good 5-6 years before I was ahead of where I would have been if I'd gone to work at 18.
But with the increase in students attending university it was no longer reasonable to expect the state to pay for all the courses. Tuition fees and low interest loans were the only way forward. If we want to g
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